Eslandola Colonial Council, Second Cycle, 618, IN SESSION

[Darnok]

*grabs some popped corn*

 

Quite the comedy show you have going on here, keep it coming!

[Bart]

2 hours ago, Drunknok said:

*grabs some popped corn*

 

Quite the comedy show you have going on here, keep it coming!

*Brings a keg of beer*

Share?

[Capt Wolf]

6 hours ago, Elostirion said:

Really? I thought the voting was about income tax?

 

3 hours ago, gedren_y said:

(OOC: Not my understanding at all! I wouldn't have bothered with any of my arguments if that were the case. I thought we were discussing INCOME TAX.)

 

Well, clearly there is some confusion. I guess we need @Kai NRG to clarify her proposal.

OOC: It seems to me that a 1% tax on income would generate so little revenue as to be practically pointless. The richest players would be taxed less than 10 DBs per turn, and I doubt it would generate enough revenue to pay the upkeep for a single fort.

[Capt Wolf]

FYI, from Kai's vote on the proposal:

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 11:53 AM, Kai NRG said:

We're proposing taxing bank accounts as they rest at the end of a turn

 

[Kai NRG]

On 2/7/2019 at 4:14 PM, Kai NRG said:

After waiting a bit to allow for discussion, Esterhazy rose.  "Since there doesn't seem to be much excitement regarding the Adminus' proposal, I'd like to make a counter proposal... I suggest a 1% flat tax on all Eslandian accounts, levied every turn."

So this is not meant to propose a tax on what comes into your account one month to the next.  This would be the government requiring you to give 1% of whatever is in your account at the end of a turn.  Not the difference between one turn and the last turn, nor the total income as calculated from properties, transactions, and MRCA.

It's not exactly a wealth tax because it does not take into account assets (too complicated under this system) but it's not an income tax.

[Capt Wolf]

4 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

So this is not meant to propose a tax on what comes into your account one month to the next.  This would be the government requiring you to give 1% of whatever is in your account at the end of a turn.  Not the difference between one turn and the last turn, nor the total income as calculated from properties, transactions, and MRCA.

It's not exactly a wealth tax because it does not take into account assets (too complicated under this system) but it's not an income tax.

That's how I understood it.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Ross Fisher]

1 hour ago, Kai NRG said:

This would be the government requiring you to give 1% of whatever is in your account at the end of a turn.

If any Eslandolans fancy offshoring their cash with me, I'm sure this could be arranged, for a small(er) percentage.

[gedren_y]

Viscount Doblin pulls out some parchment, reaches for his quill, and does some calculations based on some of the information provided. He hands it to Commodore Grei who nods his assent. The parchment is then passed to Lady Cantoni who reads it with a sigh. She pushes the parchment back at the men, thumps her head against their table, and groans, "Urrfphm."

"Aye," Viscount Doblin voted.

"Aye," Commodore Grei echoed.

(OOC: That's two votes for the proposal, and one abstention.)

[Elostirion]

37 minutes ago, Ross Fisher said:

If any Eslandolans fancy offshoring their cash with me, I'm sure this could be arranged, for a small(er) percentage.

Román Fontonajo might be really pissed about the decision and might be looking for some friends out there to do exactly that. ;-) 

[Capt Wolf]

I can see why Román Fontonajo, richest of all Eslandolans, might not like a "wealth" tax, but let's look at some numbers from the January account sheets.

Total income for ESL accounts in January was 54,410 4410 DBs. Total account values was 277,947. A 1% tax on income produces only 544 DBs, not even enough for the upkeep of Nova Terreli's royal fortress. The tax as proposed nets 2779 DBs, which comes very close to covering ESL's fort upkeep expense of 3100 DBs per turn. It would take an income tax of 5% more than 60% to match that, and likely more since the reduced income from royals has not taken effect yet.

EDIT: something was wrong with the numbers in my examples. I'll repost later. Numbers fixed.

That's all the time I have for number-crunching at the moment. Just presented for your consideration. Although I will add that I am troubled by the discussion of tax dodging schemes, both by citizens and foreign nationals.

 

 

[Capt Wolf]

I found my error. I misread a 2 as a 7, thus inflating ESL total income for January by 50,000 DBs! Actual income was 4410. So it would take an income tax of more than 60% to match the 1% "wealth" tax!

[Kai NRG]

1 hour ago, Capt Wolf said:

... Although I will add that I am troubled by the discussion of tax dodging schemes, both by citizens and foreign nationals.

Esterhazy nodded his agreement to the murmured concern that seemed to originate at the Sea of Storm's delegation's bench.  "Indeed.   It would be a pity to have to implement an additional tax on money transferred out of an account but that may be the way to go.  Perhaps a 1% tax on money transferred to any non-Eslandian person or entity?

Of course anyone not willing to contribute to the Eslandian government is welcome to find another place to stash their cash but not while still keeping the other benefits of being an Eslandian citizen."

Captain Argentum began to mutter under his mustache.  "1% won't cut the mustard, Troir!  There'd still be plenty of incentive for penny pinchers to transfer outta this here grand nation if they didn't need the booty back for more'n one turn!"

[Bregir]

A bit of number crunching:

With a wealth tax, wealth will rise (or decrease) until monthly income is equal to monthly tax. (all else equal)

Elos' currrent income is 1723 (and current wealth is 53.303 dbs), which translates to 172.300 dbs in wealth a equilibrium.

Assuming Elos has two royals, his income will be reduced by 1000, which result in 723, which gives an equilibrium at 72.300 dbs.

Assuming three Royals, and adjusted income at 223 dbs, equilibrium wealth is 22.300 dbs.

And please note that no MRCA income is considered here.

 

The game was never designed for any fortunes of that size. There is nothing to spend that much money on. Recruiting an army costs 4500 dbs, and the largest ship cost 1500 dbs. It should be clear that even if we have war, recruiting three armies would be entirely absurd for colonial warfare. And these sort of fortunes are a serious balance problem for the game. (Hence the increased costs)

What I am wondering is why people are so upset about having to part with some of their hard earned cash, the above considered. If what people are searching for is a sort of scorecard to see who achieved the most, the PIPs are a very good representation of lifetime economic achievements in BoBS.

 

On a different note: One wonders if the position of the richest in ESL will result in an early rise of a form of socialism amongst your ranks...

[Capt Wolf]

@Legostone and @Umbra-Manis, your votes are still needed on the proposal.

[Capt Wolf]

Guilder stood to address the council: "Well, still no sign of the MAESTRO or Sea of Thieves delegations, but with the other five delegations having cast votes, with 13 ayes, one nay, and one abstention, the proposal has already garnered a majority of possible votes, and so it passes." WHACK! went the gavel to punctuate the result.

Guilder continued. "While the MAESTRO delegation has been seen intermittently, the Sea of Thieves delegation has been absent for some time. I propose we consider the Sea of Thieves seats vacant and hold a special election for new representation from the Sea of Thieves. Does anybody second this proposal?"

OOC: Umbra-Manis hasn't even looked at the PMs for months, and I assume he has left the game.

[Kai NRG]

Chef Jalape raised a spatula.  "I second the proposal to hold a special election for new representation from the Sea of Thieves!"

[Capt Wolf]

Before Guilder could respond to Chef Jalape, a courier entered the hall, strode purposefully up to the front of the council hall, slapped an envelope in Guilder's hand, and turned around and strode purposefully out of the hall. Guilder looked down at the envelope in his hand and recognized the seal of Román Fontonajo. He quickly opened the letter and read it silently to himself.

"Council members, we have word from Ambassador Fontonajo in Kings Port. He has negotiated a trade agreement with the Terraversans! We need only ratify it for it to take effect. The treaty states that, as far as port taxes, harbor fees, customs duties, etc., are concerned, each nation treats the other’s ships the same as they treat their own. As such, Eslandolan ships would not be subject to any harbor fees and/or customs duties when calling in Kings Port or Westface; and Terraversan ships would not be subject to the ship-level harbor fees in Nova Terreli and Montario, and would only be subject to the cargo tax that even Eslandolan ships pay. The only other Eslandolan port that charges any taxes is Trador, which would remain in effect for visiting Terraversan and Eslandolan vessels alike, but Terraversan ships would not be charged any taxes, fees, duties, etc., at any other Eslandolan ports as long as Eslandolan ships are not charged any at Terraversan ports."

Guilder looked up from the letter and out across the council hall, then continued. "This is an important step that will give us an advantage over the competition as our merchant ships make the crossing to and from the continent, and as such I put it up for an immediate vote. I will begin by voting AYE for this trade agreement."

Aaron van der Meede stood at the Sea of Storms tables. "I too will vote AYE to ratify this agreement."

Pieter Reyngout stood. "Make that three AYEs from our delegation."

@Kai NRG, @Garmadon, @gedren_y, @Faladrin, @Legostone, please let us know your votes on this trade agreement.

 

[Kai NRG]

"Aye, aye!" Captain Argentum thundered.  "Always in favor of anything that gives us one over Oleon!"

Chef Jalape and Esterhazy looked bemused, but muttered their ayes notwithstanding.

(3 Ayes from the MCTC delegation.)

[Tezclatipoca]

Dr Ayuda raises and says :

"After a short discussion, we all agreed this trade agreement could be very helpfull for our merchant fleets, so we all vote AYE for ratifying this trade proposition !"

(that's 3 "Aye" for the Prio Sea Delegation)

[gedren_y]

The Independents delegation stood huddled together for a moment. There was some forceful whispering, and a few animated gestures. Then they sat firmly in their seats with a sense of distance between them.

"Aye!" Commodore Grei said with more force than was probably necessary.

"Aye," Lady Cantoni said with a softer, but even tone.

"Aye," Viscount Doblin sighed with a resigned tone.

[Garmadon]

Three ayes from the ETWC delegation as well! 

[Capt Wolf]

"It appears unanimous for ratifying the trade agreement, with the only exceptions being the absences of two of our delegations -- one for something called 'exams'" Guilder muttered under his breath ). "As such, the treaty is ratified." WHACK! went the gavel.

...

"Now we return to the issue of one of those missing delegations. It has been proposed and seconded that we should have a special election to fill the vacant seats from the Sea of Thieves. I'll get the ball rolling on that proposal by entering 3 AYEs from the members of the Sea of Storms delegation."

[gedren_y]

"Proper representation of the citizens is what this body was created for," Lady Cantoni exclaimed with a forthright passion, "Aye!"

"Aye!" Commodore Grei and Viscount Doblin replied in unison.

[Tezclatipoca]

"I totally agree with you, Lady cantoni" exclaimed Lady Condora; "That's an AYE from me"

"And AYE also from me !" said clearly dr Ayuda.

"AYE" simply added Chief Apulo

That's 3 "Aye" for the Prio Sea Delegation.

[Kai NRG]

"Though I regret the idea of losing a great source of income through perpetual fines, I vote aye on that proposal," Chef Jalape exclaimed.

"Aye," "Aye," Edward and Esterhazy nodded in unison.