Karalora Posted April 5 Posted April 5 3 hours ago, Renny The Spaceman said: Little confused by this, like of all the valid criticisms you're saying that the issue is the broad concepts of "Space", "pirates" and so on are too limiting? This isn't like specifically asking for more Bionicle where there's a set aesthetic, set characters and set lore they need to work in these are the broadest concepts possible, if LEGO designers couldn't think of anything interesting for these then that'd be embarrassing. When I look up the Classic Pirates sets on Bricklink, there doesn't seem to be much variety in the builds--just a handful of ships, rafts, and chunks of tropical island. Likewise Castle--the factions and their heraldry come and go, but the sets don't vary much wave to wave--we get a large castle, a gatehouse, some sort of cart or wagon, a tower, etc., and the strictures on historical castle design mean that the shapes remain basically the same. Space should be much more expansive, but "Classic Space" apparently means something very specific to AFOLs, such that new sets would have to look basically just like the old ones in order to scratch the itch, and if that's the case why not just reconstruct the old ones?
Renny The Spaceman Posted April 5 Posted April 5 51 minutes ago, Karalora said: When I look up the Classic Pirates sets on Bricklink, there doesn't seem to be much variety in the builds--just a handful of ships, rafts, and chunks of tropical island. Likewise Castle--the factions and their heraldry come and go, but the sets don't vary much wave to wave--we get a large castle, a gatehouse, some sort of cart or wagon, a tower, etc., and the strictures on historical castle design mean that the shapes remain basically the same. I'm very confused here, yes Castle sets generally are based around medieval structures and vehicles but they don't have any more a formula than any current evergreen LEGO themes, Ninjago, Star Wars and especially Superheroes sets all blur together so often. I can kinda see the pirates themes blending into eachother but castle sets have evolving shaping so much over the years and waves like Fantasy Era and Knight's Kingdom 1 are so distinct from so many other ones. I mean just look at the past five years and the assorted castle sets there. I mean even if you still think they all look the same this entire thing is a tangent from your original point. That somehow utilising the vague concepts of these themes would somehow shackle new designers to old themes aesthetics when that's not how it's ever worked. Even direct reboots of existing themes like with Space Police 2 and 3 or Knights Kingdom 2 the Aesthetic is completely different. Using sandbox themes wouldn't limit creativity, I don't think it's inherently more creative than some other options but it is by definition less limiting 52 minutes ago, Karalora said: Space should be much more expansive, but "Classic Space" apparently means something very specific to AFOLs, such that new sets would have to look basically just like the old ones in order to scratch the itch, and if that's the case why not just reconstruct the old ones? I mean yeah, Classic Space means one thing but no-one said Classic Space here, just general space. Like for most people on here City Space 2024 with the occasional throwback Icons set was what they wanted and they enjoyed it. Those who didn't just want a more sci-fi original Space theme.
Karalora Posted April 5 Posted April 5 We might be talking past each other a bit. I just thought one reason the classic themes were discontinued might be that the company decided they had done about all they could with them, and/or new generations of designers were eager to develop their own ideas instead of just working with past concepts.
JesseNight Posted April 5 Posted April 5 On 4/4/2025 at 8:11 PM, MAB said: So which licenses and the associated fans would you want to get rid of? If LEGO cut out a small licensed theme, chances are there would be zero extra unlicensed sets made as if there was a market for those unlicensed themes, they'd be filling it. For a few years now, it has been about 50/50 licensed to unlicensed in terms of sets. More licensed themes, but much smaller number of sets per theme than in unlicensed themes. I'm no business man and I'm not going to say they should get rid of something that's working for them. I'm just no fan of it myself. Even the licenses that I do like, I would be more tempted to buy a very accurate scale model of rather than a Lego set. I love Star Wars for example, but I own 0 Lego SW sets. For me Lego was about creativity. And yes I loved the old space, castle, and town themes. Should they be frozen in time? Absolutely not. Look at the Galaxy Explorer a few years ago. It proved that an old theme can be successfully "remastered" without losing either functionality or quality, and even offering more on both. With that in mind, new themes should be possible too, right?
TeriXeri Posted April 5 Posted April 5 (edited) While classic themes did indeed go away (in particular the time 2016-2019 was quite dry on truly classic sets for the last few years there have been at least 1 product available for Space, Castle and Pirates (and even more distant theme like Vikings), and I think there always will be at least 1 product for at least Pirates, Space, and Castle for the forseeable future, and I don't mean Bricklink Designer sets. And that's leaving out pseudo knights/pirates/space found in LEGO movie 1-2 and themes like Nexo or Ninjago. (and themes like Dreamzzz touched on Space and sword/bowfights in their own way) The fact that a set like 3-in-1 Pirate Ship lasted 5+ years is a testament that it still sells (but does not explain barracuda bay's rapid retirement, but it being part of IDEAS might have been part of it) Could there be more? yes. What should be the next big announced classic set? Likely Pirates, but 2026 could be interesting as end of 2025 will have 3-in-1 Pirate ship, and the 2 icons Castle set retire, but Castle does get some compensation in the form of this summer 3-in-1. Blacktron renegade is new but apparently had a planned 1.5 year span (retiring listed at July 2026) Edited April 5 by TeriXeri
Murdoch17 Posted April 5 Posted April 5 (edited) But classic themes WEREN'T really working for them much anymore by the time Star Wars came out. LEGO almost was bought out (a serious offer from Mattel was being considered by top leadership - including the founding family!) due to the financial woes of LEGO stemming from the 1990s / late 80's over-specialization, the costs of holding onto mountains of unneeded molds*, vats of too many little-used colors (Maersk blue, sand red, etc.), in-house videogame development, the theme parks, and so on. Also, MAJOR non-licensed themes Jack Stone and Galidor (a LEGO original with a show made about it by Fox Kids that is absolutely unwatchable) flopped extremely hard in that same time, along with Monorail, Scala, Belleville, and anything with fiberoptic parts. (Spybotics, anyone?) *For example: This part's mold from 2000 were made with a insert put into a lower battery box mold from 4.5V trains, last used in 1985 - fifteen years prior! Edited April 5 by Murdoch17
SpacePolice89 Posted April 5 Posted April 5 I find it very hard to believe that they have no more ideas for new sets and subthemes for the classic themes when the possibilities are endless when it comes to very broad concepts such as space and castle nor that the new designers only want to do different stuff when most of them grew up with the classic themes and like them very much. With the licensed themes they are not even allowed to design anything, they are only making Lego models of Hollywood popular culture products. That is very limiting. Every two or three years we get the same boring gray Star Wars spaceships with minimal changes instead of getting new Space subthemes with fresh designs. Licensed themes are killing creativity and imagination.
TeriXeri Posted April 5 Posted April 5 (edited) 31 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said: Every two or three years we get the same boring gray Star Wars spaceships with minimal changes instead of getting new Space subthemes with fresh designs. Licensed themes are killing creativity and imagination. City / Friends space doesn't count? because it's under said City and Friends? I call those very fresh designs, Galaxy explorer and Blacktron Renegade do remaster old ones (bigger cause of 18+ nostalgia), but are ultimately remakes, City space are new, even tho they are targeted at kids age group, so was 70s-90s space. And yes, of course, I hope for full-focused Classic themes as well, with the attention on something unique like Elves, to this day does not feel like it was an action-theme clone. Monkie Kid and Dreamzzz turned into Ninjago Clones pretty much with all the mechs and vehicles , same thing happened with nexo and hidden side eventually, I do want something focused on something different, each definately have their unique things but in general they all come down to mechs, flashy characters, and vehicles/creatures for said characters, even Chima had a lot of that. Exceptions where things really stand out to me, was that 2020 Ninjago Dungeon wave, super consistent color scheme, sets that can connect, and optional mech / beast set. Current City Space has a super consistent color scheme as well (Friends has more purple but still, they did not go full nexo by making mining sets yellow, or space ships blue, or space station green). Edited April 5 by TeriXeri
SpacePolice89 Posted April 6 Posted April 6 7 hours ago, TeriXeri said: City / Friends space doesn't count? because it's under said City and Friends? I call those very fresh designs, Galaxy explorer and Blacktron Renegade do remaster old ones (bigger cause of 18+ nostalgia), but are ultimately remakes, City space are new, even tho they are targeted at kids age group, so was 70s-90s space. And yes, of course, I hope for full-focused Classic themes as well, with the attention on something unique like Elves, to this day does not feel like it was an action-theme clone. Monkie Kid and Dreamzzz turned into Ninjago Clones pretty much with all the mechs and vehicles , same thing happened with nexo and hidden side eventually, I do want something focused on something different, each definately have their unique things but in general they all come down to mechs, flashy characters, and vehicles/creatures for said characters, even Chima had a lot of that. Exceptions where things really stand out to me, was that 2020 Ninjago Dungeon wave, super consistent color scheme, sets that can connect, and optional mech / beast set. Current City Space has a super consistent color scheme as well (Friends has more purple but still, they did not go full nexo by making mining sets yellow, or space ships blue, or space station green). I was mostly addressing the argument that the Space theme has run out of ideas and therefore can't exist anymore (which is totally wrong). Therefore I compared it with Star Wars and their habit of releasing the same spaceship every two or three years and the boring gray color scheme. City space is fine but that subtheme also suffer from boring color choices such as the NASA color scheme and the use of trans black for canopies and windshields which is the most boring transparent color ever. The Friends sets look much better with trans purple canopies but those sets are very few and not for minifigs. I very much welcome new unlicensed themes and subthemes but as you said Monkie Kid, Dreamzzz and Ninjago are too similar. I think that out of those three only Ninjago should exist because having all three is like having for example three different Pirates themes with similar colors and designs. If the lineup of themes was up to me I would have City (including trains), Space, Castle, Pirates and Ninjago as permanent themes that would get new sets on a yearly basis. I would also have two in house themes that would change every two or three years and would focus on fresh and popular ideas (stuff like Rock Raiders, Aquazone, Western, Alpha Team, Dinosaurs etc) and also only two licensed themes (currently Star Wars and Harry Potter) and if any of those would lose popularity they would be replaced with other licensed themes such as Pokemon if that would be more popular at that moment. I would remove the 4+ sets as a separate entity and merge them with Classic and I would also make Creator 3in1 a subtheme of Classic. Collectable minifigs, Friends/minidolls, Duplo and Technic would remain but with zero licensed content. I would also merge Speed Champions and 18+ and call that merged theme Model Team (with no licenses except Star Wars and Harry Potter).
imposter Posted April 6 Author Posted April 6 LEGO not coming up with original themes defeat the purpose of their message of creativity
Mylenium Posted April 6 Posted April 6 (edited) I'm afraid your arguments don't make too much sense. 10 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said: I find it very hard to believe that they have no more ideas for new sets and subthemes for the classic themes when the possibilities are endless when it comes to very broad concepts such as space and castle... You can have ideas all day, but that doesn't do you any good if it doesn't sell. Don't you think those themes disappearing had/ has anything to do with that? 10 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said: (...) when most of them grew up with the classic themes and like them very much. SRSLY? What does it even matter? I grew up in Eastern Germany and started doing LEGO only in my late thirties. I've never been in touch with any of that stuff, yet I don't see how not being pre-conditioned should have prevented me from becoming a LEGO designer. In the inverse why should being primed with a certain product be a prerequisite? Your "logic" isn't any logic at all. And as someone who has worked as a graphics and 3D designer it seems to me you are constantly throwing together "design" in the most abstract sense vs. implementation of design vs. technical solutions. 10 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said: With the licensed themes they are not even allowed to design anything, they are only making Lego models of Hollywood popular culture products. Are they, though? I haven't seen any model ever that is an actual 1:1 copy of a movie prop. Again, you are mixing up terminology here and are trying to determine a red line between "good" and "bad" creativity where there is none. 10 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said: Licensed themes are killing creativity and imagination. Only speak for yourself. If you can't draw inspiration from the art forms surrounding you no matter how commercialized they may be then I don't know what to tell you. There are great Star Wars MOCs of vehicles and locations that never existed in the official canon and you are basically saying they don't count because they are "In the style of...". In which universe does that even make sense? 1 hour ago, SpacePolice89 said: (...) City space is fine but that subtheme also suffer from boring color choices such as the NASA color scheme and the use of trans black for canopies and windshields which is the most boring transparent color ever (...) It basically sounds like your definition of "creative" translates to crazy color schemes and weird structures. Again, what has this at all to do with "design"? Mylenium 41 minutes ago, imposter said: LEGO not coming up with original themes defeat the purpose of their message of creativity No, it doesn't. See my previous reply. Mylenium 10 hours ago, Murdoch17 said: But classic themes WEREN'T really working for them much anymore by the time Star Wars came out. Yes. But what is the cause, what is the effect? Couldn't they have pulled through if they had done a better job? It's ambiguous. Agree, though, that their multitude of poor business decisions and their delusion of grandeur at the time had a lot to do with it. They thought they were untouchable and it was their downfall. Mylenium Edited April 6 by Mylenium Fixed some typos
Karalora Posted April 6 Posted April 6 15 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said: Licensed themes are killing creativity and imagination. What a strange claim. Do you also think animal models like the Kingfisher and Red Fox are killing creativity and imagination? Those, after all, are also just copies of things that already exist, rather than original designs.
SpacePolice89 Posted April 6 Posted April 6 1 hour ago, Karalora said: What a strange claim. Do you also think animal models like the Kingfisher and Red Fox are killing creativity and imagination? Those, after all, are also just copies of things that already exist, rather than original designs. Licensed themes are killing creativity and imagination because they are replacing in house themes that used to encourage people to use creativity and imagination. I was mostly thinking about minifig themes but the Red Fox is also very different from licensed themes in a good way. It is a 3 in 1 set and with no Hollywood connections and is a nice model of a fox. If it was a licensed set it would be named something like Hank the Fox and have a laser gun and a purple hat and a backstory and be part of a superhero franchise and cost 35-40 euros more.
Karalora Posted April 6 Posted April 6 1 hour ago, SpacePolice89 said: Licensed themes are killing creativity and imagination because they are replacing in house themes that used to encourage people to use creativity and imagination. That only tracks if you assume that licensed themes don't encourage creativity and imagination. And there's probably an argument to be made there, but you have to actually make it. I'm as disturbed as anyone by the fact that big-budget cinematic media has appropriated so much of people's imaginative function these days, but I don't think it necessarily follows that the flights of imagination that follow someone's experience of a popular action move are necessarily inferior to the flights of imagination they might take in response to something less specifically labeled, like a toy spaceship. An existing film or TV series can be a powerful springboard for the imagination; it gives people somewhere to start. [quote]I was mostly thinking about minifig themes but the Red Fox is also very different from licensed themes in a good way. It is a 3 in 1 set and with no Hollywood connections and is a nice model of a fox. If it was a licensed set it would be named something like Hank the Fox and have a laser gun and a purple hat and a backstory and be part of a superhero franchise and cost 35-40 euros more.[/quote] I'm with you on the price point thing, but I fail to see why a model of a fox character from a movie is somehow worse than a model of a wild fox, in terms of inspiring the people who build it. Maybe you wouldn't be as inspired by hypothetical "Hank the Fox," but...I feel compelled to point out that you made him up. You combined the concept of the existing Red Fox with the overall phenomenon of licensed themes and made up something new out of it. Even if it's coming from a place of disdain, the licensed themes got you to use your imagination!
Calanon Posted April 6 Posted April 6 1 hour ago, SpacePolice89 said: Licensed themes are killing creativity and imagination because they are replacing in house themes that used to encourage people to use creativity and imagination. I was mostly thinking about minifig themes but the Red Fox is also very different from licensed themes in a good way. It is a 3 in 1 set and with no Hollywood connections and is a nice model of a fox. If it was a licensed set it would be named something like Hank the Fox and have a laser gun and a purple hat and a backstory and be part of a superhero franchise and cost 35-40 euros more. Do they really though? I'm very much into SW and I've seen plenty of people create Star War-sy feeling vehicles that don't exist in SW. That's definitely using imagination and creativity. I don't tend to do that, I try and make vehicles etc from SW but I try to stick close to a specific scale and I very much enjoy the challenge of trying to get something looking good, accurate and in-scale. Is that not its own form of creativity with trying to find ways to best use different pieces?
Mylenium Posted April 6 Posted April 6 38 minutes ago, Karalora said: That only tracks if you assume that licensed themes don't encourage creativity and imagination. And there's probably an argument to be made there, but you have to actually make it. I'm as disturbed as anyone by the fact that big-budget cinematic media has appropriated so much of people's imaginative function these days, but I don't think it necessarily follows that the flights of imagination that follow someone's experience of a popular action move are necessarily inferior to the flights of imagination they might take in response to something less specifically labeled, like a toy spaceship. An existing film or TV series can be a powerful springboard for the imagination; it gives people somewhere to start. Well said! And the real question boils down to how many "creative" people actually there are that want to express themselves via the medium of LEGO bricks, anyway. It seems to me that this, too, is based on the faulty assumption that things were better at some point in the past, though by the same token I'm quite positive that the number of people customizing their sets or building MOCs never really exceeded a certain small percentage even then. Most people were very likely just following instructions and didn't much care whether it was an original LEGO creation or someone else's IP. Another point that gets lost in this whole debate is that the advocates of in-house themes forget that they are still specifically branded themes and the whole thing could have unraveled the other way around. What would have happened if LEGO Classic Space had taken over and Star Wars was a non-entity based on a bunch of obscure failed movies? It's kind of funny then to complain about third-party IPs ruining everyone's "creativity" when basically they are just proposing to replace X with Y and all that is rooted in adherence to a specific perception of a theme/ series/ brand as well without them realizing it... Mylenium
JesseNight Posted April 6 Posted April 6 (edited) 21 hours ago, Murdoch17 said: ...flopped extremely hard in that same time, along with Monorail, Scala, Belleville, and anything with fiberoptic parts. (Spybotics, anyone?) I wasn't even aware that monorail flopped. I loved it, but there were very limited sets and they were at a very high price point for that time. 21 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said: I find it very hard to believe that they have no more ideas for new sets and subthemes for the classic themes when the possibilities are endless when it comes to very broad concepts such as space and castle nor that the new designers only want to do different stuff when most of them grew up with the classic themes and like them very much. With the licensed themes they are not even allowed to design anything, they are only making Lego models of Hollywood popular culture products. That is very limiting. Every two or three years we get the same boring gray Star Wars spaceships with minimal changes instead of getting new Space subthemes with fresh designs. Licensed themes are killing creativity and imagination. This is exactly what bothers me so much too, the endless repetition of the same sets. But I guess it somehow works from a business pov... 11 hours ago, Mylenium said: Are they, though? I haven't seen any model ever that is an actual 1:1 copy of a movie prop. Again, you are mixing up terminology here and are trying to determine a red line between "good" and "bad" creativity where there is none. The point is probably creative freedom. Of course there's always tolerance, and restriction of what we can do with the bricks given, but you know in advance what you have to design... instead of following a designer's own fantasy to create something unseen before. It's the latter that so many people are missing. Edited April 6 by JesseNight
SpacePolice89 Posted April 6 Posted April 6 2 hours ago, Karalora said: I'm with you on the price point thing, but I fail to see why a model of a fox character from a movie is somehow worse than a model of a wild fox, in terms of inspiring the people who build it. Maybe you wouldn't be as inspired by hypothetical "Hank the Fox," but...I feel compelled to point out that you made him up. You combined the concept of the existing Red Fox with the overall phenomenon of licensed themes and made up something new out of it. Even if it's coming from a place of disdain, the licensed themes got you to use your imagination! Maybe I should build "Hank the Fox" and submit the build to Lego Ideas?
JesseNight Posted April 6 Posted April 6 2 hours ago, Mylenium said: It's kind of funny then to complain about third-party IPs ruining everyone's "creativity" when basically they are just proposing to replace X with Y and all that is rooted in adherence to a specific perception of a theme/ series/ brand as well without them realizing it... I wouldn't say "ruin" it. All I wanna say is the old Lego themes would encourage it more by setting an example. Doesn't mean there is no room for licensed themes, because there most certainly is. I just wish it was slightly less, and the endless repetition of new revisions of the same sets (like SW theme) would stop.
SpacePolice89 Posted April 6 Posted April 6 2 hours ago, Calanon said: Do they really though? I'm very much into SW and I've seen plenty of people create Star War-sy feeling vehicles that don't exist in SW. That's definitely using imagination and creativity. I don't tend to do that, I try and make vehicles etc from SW but I try to stick close to a specific scale and I very much enjoy the challenge of trying to get something looking good, accurate and in-scale. Is that not its own form of creativity with trying to find ways to best use different pieces? I was only trying to say that licensed themes are more specific when it comes to what they encourage people to build and play with them while with unlicensed themes it is more up to the customer to imagine what is going on and who the characters are.
Karalora Posted April 6 Posted April 6 2 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said: I was only trying to say that licensed themes are more specific when it comes to what they encourage people to build and play with them while with unlicensed themes it is more up to the customer to imagine what is going on and who the characters are. I am less certain of this, if only because I'm on Rebrickable, where you very often get people posting alternate builds of licensed sets that have nothing to do with the original, and on the flipside, sometimes the alt-builds of unlicensed sets are minor variations on the original. And really...what is the difference between the play encouraged by a Classic Space-style set and the play encouraged by a SW set? Both sets have an "intended" build to be made from the parts, and instructions showing how to put together that intended build. The main difference, from what I can tell, is that the minifigures in the SW set have pre-assigned names.
MAB Posted April 6 Posted April 6 On 4/5/2025 at 11:37 AM, imposter said: CREATIVITY <3 Dreamzzz... Hidden Side Ultra Agents ... Boring Themes Star Wars Ninjago Harry Potter ... So buy Dreamzzz or vintage stuff on the secondary market. And let others that want to buy Star Wars, HP and Ninjago buy what they want. If LEGO only made themes like Dreamzzz, they'd soon be bankrupt and you'd only be able to enjoy old themes from the secondary market.
Murdoch17 Posted April 6 Posted April 6 On 4/5/2025 at 5:37 AM, imposter said: CREATIVITY <3 Dreamzzz... Hidden Side Ultra Agents ... Boring Themes Star Wars Ninjago Harry Potter ... Ninjago isn't licensed, so...
MAB Posted April 6 Posted April 6 On 4/5/2025 at 8:40 PM, JesseNight said: For me Lego was about creativity. Whose creativity? Is there any difference in creativity between a consumer buying a City set or a Modular and following the instructions and a consumer buying a licensed set and following the instructions. I see many second hand sets for sale and many consumers build sets once and keep them together. And for those that take sets apart and rebuild into something else, there is just as much building creativity in licensed MOCs as for unlicensed. From the LEGO designer point of view, they can use creativity in build styles just as much for licensed sets as for unlicensed. 3 hours ago, JesseNight said: I just wish it was slightly less, and the endless repetition of new revisions of the same sets (like SW theme) would stop. And the same for unlicensed? So no more Classic Space grey and blue, as the endless repetition of those got boring, no more repetition of fire or police in City, no more repetition of castles and wagons in Castle, no more repetition of ships in Pirates, ... Star wars is about 5% of LEGO's output in terms of available sets. If someone doesn't like it, there are plenty of other themes. 40 minutes ago, Karalora said: Both sets have an "intended" build to be made from the parts, and instructions showing how to put together that intended build. The main difference, from what I can tell, is that the minifigures in the SW set have pre-assigned names. Many unlicensed themes have the same now, with named characters and storylines.
Karalora Posted April 6 Posted April 6 1 hour ago, MAB said: Many unlicensed themes have the same now, with named characters and storylines. I think @SpacePolice89 was saying he doesn't think much of the current unlicensed themes vs. the ones from the 80s and 90s, largely for just that reason. idk, it seems to me that some people use words like "creativity," "imagination," and "originality" not as useful descriptions but as shibboleths. What makes a theme "good" or "bad" largely comes down to matters of taste, so they invoke these terms to imply that their tastes are objectively superior. We're all just supposed to roll over and accept that the classic themes promoted creativity while current ones don't--an actual argument to that effect is not made. And I say this as someone who is uninterested in most of the licensed themes, mainly because so many of them are things I'm bored with in general and tired of hearing about in pop culture. Star Wars and the MCU and Harry Potter and jeez, even Disney these days, can all take a long walk off a short pier as far as I'm concerned. But that's not a LEGO-specific complaint.
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