Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Flipz]

IDEA!

What if the "Heroica Cocktail" is moved to Elphaba's stock? This really is an availability issue, once the items aren't readily available, people won't use them so much.

[Chromeknight]

I've not been a QM.

From a players perspective, there seem like three options.

1. Don't take consumables before battle. The QM (depending on which QM) will pitch the battle about right. Consumables can then be used for an edge or to accentuate role in battle.

2. Take consumables before battle, accepting that QM will likely rebalance for their use, giving a harder battle. And making it harder for fellow party members.

3. Take consumables before battle, betting that coming battle is going to be hard anyway (final fight of quest, boss fight etc) and won't be made significantly harder by going in with buffs.

So, is it then a player (or party) issue, rather than a rules or QM one?

[Palathadric]

I don't think the issue is changing stats in a battle, or the fact that effects are OP, or whatever you want to say. I think it's become somewhat of a reliance on them. People started drinking the Heroica Cocktail of Mead, Smelling Salts, and Nostrum, and so QM's had to adjust for this. The enemies became ridiculously harder, so players continue to use the Heroica Cocktail. It's a vicious cycle.

So, I have like the best idea evers! Yayz! We kill off Guts and Hybros permanently. Suddenly taking the Heroica Cocktail is not seen as a cool thing anymore, but a thing that weird dead people (Sorrow) do and that's running them into the grave. Heck, we can make stories about the Cocktails causing uncool balding of the head or less than heroic stature. Consumables go out of demand. Wow! Issue solved!. I'm a genius!!!

I stand by my hate of Nostrums, but then you see Dyric and wonder how he'd do anything in any battle without being permanently lucky.

No really, I still totally dig the not taking consumables before battle unless you buy it at a bar or something. Maybe I'm just anti-consumable in general, but battles are so much more fun without them.

[Cutcobra]

Heck, we can make stories about the Cocktails causing uncool balding of the head or less than heroic stature.

Heckz will personally kill any merchant who sells Meads Nostrums and Smelling Salts if that happens.

[Palathadric]

Heckz will personally kill any merchant who sells Meads Nostrums and Smelling Salts if that happens.

See? I knew it would work.

So I'm thinking that 97 is totally 42 with Erdathcath gone missing.

Hey, Flare, weren't we expecting a new quest from you sometime?

[JimBee]

Then set the difficulty of the encounter to require heroes to buff themselves and stick to it. If I'm hosting a barbarian and they decide to take a mead before a battle, I don't go and double the health of my enemies so they don't die as easily. That's essentially making the player waste a consumable. As a player I've been starting to hold off on popping consumables before a battle because I'm paranoid that the QM is just going to increase the difficulty of the battle which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid by taking the buff in the first place.

Exactly. There'd be no point in buffing in the first place if the QM is going to rebalance anyway. That's just not fair. Taking consumables in-battle eliminates the chance of the QM changing anything about the enemies to balance a buff (or rather, they shouldn't, but you know, surprise boss revival and all that).

The bottom line is, battles should be properly balance before taking any buffs into account. That means that they should be easy enough to win without any buffs at all (if with some difficulty), and challenging enough where the enemies aren't steamrolled if heroes are buffed. It's a fine line, and easier said than done, but it has been done before by QMs.

Again, I think limiting consumable use to in-battle only would remedy this problem by quite a bit.

So, I have like the best idea evers! Yayz! We kill off Guts and Hybros permanently. Suddenly taking the Heroica Cocktail is not seen as a cool thing anymore, but a thing that weird dead people (Sorrow) do and that's running them into the grave.

I don't have Hybros use consumables as often anymore.

[Sandy]

I've already given my opinion on the buff-discussion in the past, and I stand by my suggestion to make the positive effects last only 10 rounds. That would make the long, monotonous battles more risky.

I hear all of your suggestions on the issue, but I think all of them are either too complex or just not practical. We just have to live with the situation for now, I think.

For the record, I never rebalance my enemies because of buffs that the heroes have (and that shows ).

[Khorne]

On the "Heroes Cocktail" topic: aren't they already used somewhat less now? With the nerf regarding the thieving trait of Rogues (and Raiders, etc.) a while back, their income took a dive and so they have less money to spend on Meads, Smelling Salts, ... I know I took the cost of the items in account when using them during #94. Whereas I'd used to use the items before or during every battle, I now doubted more before actually using them. I believe I even fought a battle without. I don't see why you'd want to "ban" the items from the general marketplace . If you want to lessen their use, wouldn't it be better to raise the prices? (not that I'm in favor of that , just a thought).

[CMP]

I've already given my opinion on the buff-discussion in the past, and I stand by my suggestion to make the positive effects last only 10 rounds. That would make the long, monotonous battles more risky.

There are very few long monotous battles when someone's buffed up with enough positive effects. It's a good suggestion that I think would help solve some cases, but I don't see how that would significantly impact the issue of balancing vs. Rogues slaughtering the enemy party in two or three rounds without balancing for it consistantly.

[Waterbrick Down]

I've already given my opinion on the buff-discussion in the past, and I stand by my suggestion to make the positive effects last only 10 rounds. That would make the long, monotonous battles more risky.

I hear all of your suggestions on the issue, but I think all of them are either too complex or just not practical. We just have to live with the situation for now, I think.

For the record, I never rebalance my enemies because of buffs that the heroes have (and that shows ).

Having a limit on how long the effects last doesn't solve the issue of either QM's rebalancing and denying PC's the benefit of their buffs or PC's steam-rolling battles that were designed for un-buffed heroes. The buffs themselves are so powerful (particularly Encouraged, Reinforced, and Inspired) due to their multiplicative nature that finding a balance between challenging battles for unbuffed heroes and somewhat easy battles for buffed heroes is becoming nigh impossible. Effectively everyone has to take consumables in a battle or no one does in order for a balanced battle.

On the "Heroes Cocktail" topic: aren't they already used somewhat less now? With the nerf regarding the thieving trait of Rogues (and Raiders, etc.) a while back, their income took a dive and so they have less money to spend on Meads, Smelling Salts, ... I know I took the cost of the items in account when using them during #94. Whereas I'd used to use the items before or during every battle, I now doubted more before actually using them. I believe I even fought a battle without. I don't see why you'd want to "ban" the items from the general marketplace . If you want to lessen their use, wouldn't it be better to raise the prices? (not that I'm in favor of that , just a thought).

Again price rises only affect non-rogue classes.

[Flipz]

My big worry is that limiting the effects to 10 Rounds would encourage QMs to try to make more ultra-long battles to "wait out" the Heroes' buffs.

[Zepher]

I agree with Flipz.

I think the battles work as they are now. You balance assuming that each hero will take maybe one buff. The way I plan battles - some are easily winnable without buffs, most require one or two heroes to have one or two buffs, and then a rare one, once in a blue moon, requires buffs.

[JimBee]

There are very few long monotous battles when someone's buffed up with enough positive effects. It's a good suggestion that I think would help solve some cases, but I don't see how that would significantly impact the issue of balancing vs. Rogues slaughtering the enemy party in two or three rounds without balancing for it consistantly.

Exactly. Any battle that becomes unbalanced by buffs is usually going to last less than ten rounds anyway.

[Sandy]

There are very few long monotous battles when someone's buffed up with enough positive effects.

The buffs themselves are so powerful (particularly Encouraged, Reinforced, and Inspired) due to their multiplicative nature that finding a balance between challenging battles for unbuffed heroes and somewhat easy battles for buffed heroes is becoming nigh impossible.

They could also last 5 rounds, or only offer a 50% boost to stats as opposed to doubling them.

But I agree with Khorne, I'm seeing less and less reliance on consumables nowadays since the rogues do not make as much gold anymore.

[Kintobor]

The party tromps up the stairs and throws open the doors, finding themselves in perhaps the most bizzare situation they had encountered yet.

Four groups of bugs gather round a sprawl of papers and a pair of dice, using their collective strength to throw the toy.

<Hah! I rolled a 6! I use the Golden Reaper and asssasinate the Hobgoblin Goddess!>

<But she's immune to insta-kill.>

<He used the ashes of demise, remember?>

<I thought we nerfed that so that it only effects enemies below Level 50?>

What will the party do?

Bwahaha! This has to be most appropriate gag in a quest that ironically relates back to the General Discussion thread I've seen in a while!

[Endgame]

Even tiny insect colonies are filled with rule lawyers!

[Flipz]

Bwahaha! This has to be most appropriate gag in a quest that ironically relates back to the General Discussion thread I've seen in a while!

Kill it with fire, before they arm themselves with the nerf bat!

Edited April 25, 2014 by Flipz

[Endgame]

-Purple is the QM.

-Green is playing a Druid.

-Light Blue is a Beserker.

-Blue is an Assasin.

And yet, all four of them will probably be unceromoniously stomped out anyway.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Endgame

[Flipz]

-Purple is the QM.

-Green is playing a Druid.

-Light Blue is a Beserker.

-Blue is an Assasin.

And yet, all four of them will probably be uncereomnisuly stomped out anyway.

I'm not sure what that adjective means, but I'm sure Darksten will do his best to stomp them out in that manner.

[Palathadric]

I don't have Hybros use consumables as often anymore.

When was this ever about consumables? I thought we just wanted Hybros dead.

My big worry is that limiting the effects to 10 Rounds would encourage QMs to try to make more ultra-long battles to "wait out" the Heroes' buffs.

Yeah, I don't really see a time limit as being the answer to the problem here.

[Palathadric]

You saw nothing.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Palathadric

[Myrddyn]

Encouraged.

There's those consumables again!

[StickFig]

I think it's become somewhat of a reliance on them.

It's sort of become commonplace to see heroes buff themselves with everything imaginable before a battle.

Effectively everyone has to take consumables in a battle or no one does in order for a balanced battle.

Just want to point out that the reliance on consumables is a big deal not just for non-rogues vs. rogue classes, but new players vs. established ones. If enemies are already overpowered vs. a character because that character is lower level than the rest of their party, and then the QM rebalances for consumable use by all the experienced characters, that just sucks for the newbie because they don't have any consumables to consume. I like both the idea of making consumables only usable during battles (so that they require 1 turn per consumable used) and making the multipliers less than double (50% increase in damage, or even only 20%; hastened gives you a free action every other turn, etc).

I'm not sure what that adjective means....

Adverb.

In any case, I hope everyone doesn't think that I talk or complain too much for a newbie. I've really enjoyed Heroica for the past few months (has it really been so long?!) and I know lots of people work hard to make it fun. I applaud you.

[Palathadric]

Not at all. It's great to see new players so interested in improving the game and sharing their opinions.

[Palathadric]

Seeing the unsuccessful attempts of others to try and bring back to life professor Thalion lovers his head,

I don't even know how you do this, but it sounds wonderful.