Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Emjajoas]

So would something along the lines of "A random effect will be chosen by die roll and applied to your weapon; the effect will have a 1/6 chance of applying on successful rolls" be a better option than the ones I have now? Or perhaps offer a choice between a few for a lot more gold than I originally thought would be fair?

[CMP]

So would something along the lines of "A random effect will be chosen by die roll and applied to your weapon; the effect will have a 1/6 chance of applying on successful rolls" be a better option than the ones I have now? Or perhaps offer a choice between a few for a lot more gold than I originally thought would be fair?

The first one sounds reasonable.

[Sandy]

You raise some valid concerns that hadn't come to mind when I was working through this. I'll take out the extra SP to artifacts and the bought immunities and consult with Sandy about the chance to inflict effects on the weapons. Would you recommend a price hike on some of the weapon effects as a quick fix of sorts?

And I'd like to apologize in advance for any problems I have caused/will cause with this. I thought it might be a cool idea to do; I hadn't thought of the negative repercussions game-wise and that's all on me.

That's exactly why you should've consulted with me about this beforehand. It's easy for a QM to get into that "I want to give my players cool stuff" mode without realizing what effects it will have on the game in the long run. I've been on that mode a couple of times myself.

I don't mind that you offer Anwyl's services at a lower price, because it's a one-time chance. However, offering permanent effects, changing a weapon's type as well as custom-made weapons is excessive. You should really offer just one of these services alongside normal upgrading and imbuing.

[Emjajoas]

That's exactly why you should've consulted with me about this beforehand. It's easy for a QM to get into that "I want to give my players cool stuff" mode without realizing what effects it will have on the game in the long run. I've been on that mode a couple of times myself.

I don't mind that you offer Anwyl's services at a lower price, because it's a one-time chance. However, offering permanent effects, changing a weapon's type as well as custom-made weapons is excessive. You should really offer just one of these services alongside normal upgrading and imbuing.

That's definitely something I'll keep in mind in the future. This was something I wasn't originally planning to do, and the idea just kind of dawned on me as being something that would be cool to do-- that being said, there is no excuse for not consulting you beforehand and I'm really sorry for making a mess of things.

I'll fix it up again and hopefully it'll end up being an okay thing instead of a game-breaking thing. Again, very, very sorry, and thanks everyone for your patience.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Emjajoas

[Sandy]

"My small deck didn't stand a chance against your deck."

Holy crap, this made me laugh very hard for very childish reasons!

I'll fix it up again and hopefully it'll end up being an okay thing instead of a game-breaking thing. Again, very, very sorry, and thanks everyone for your patience.

It's totally alright. As I said, every QM can make the same mistake. We are lucky to have such a great community here to keep each other in check and make sure the game is as fair as possible to everyone. :thumb:

[Khorne]

Is he, though? I feel like, with me going either Chi Monk or Weather Mage for the next Quest (leaning Weather Mage because yes) and then likely swapping back to Dragoon afterwards, Arthur may be tying with him soon.

I don't know . I didn't really count the number of changed classes. In my mind, Benji will always remain the PC who has changed classes most, though. But you're right, Arthur is probably a very close second (maybe even first place in the class changing contest).

[Flipz]

"I would live Mythril Edge reforged into a Spear." Guts hands over the gold required.

...dafuq?

Ohh, you're going Dragoon, aren't you? Jeez, it really is the Month of Major Class Change, isn't it?

[Sandy]

I don't know . I didn't really count the number of changed classes. In my mind, Benji will always remain the PC who has changed classes most, though. But you're right, Arthur is probably a very close second (maybe even first place in the class changing contest).

Luckily you can count the number of changes from the first page of Heroica Hall, where I've been keeping record of them throughout the history of this game.

Arthur has changed class four times, so he is tied with Nur and Namyrra, whereas Benji has changed it a total of six times.

[Flare]

I'm not sure if I should be proud of Benji's accomplishment or not

[Flipz]

As far as I know, most of the female characters are played by male people IRL. Endgame, Masked Builder, Kintobor, Psykater, Sandy, etc... I don't see any reason why female characters should be encouraged. Why don't we just let people roleplay the characters they want to play as and not influence it?

Because that's maintaining the status quo that male characters are almost always overrepresented--particularly in the fantasy genre and RPGs in particular. (Not to mention that when female characters do appear, they tend to get shoehorned into minor supporting roles and/or end up written poorly.) The idea that a male player should "default" to a male character is sexist and wrong. If someone wants to play a male character, fine, it's their choice, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage a more diverse fictional world.

See also: http://itswalky.tumblr.com/post/107508605242/rewatching-s1-for-like-the-100th-time-at-what

"This thinking it’s stupid and wrong and self perpetuating unless you actively work against it." There it is again, the realization of how such biases lurk in our subconscious, in our muscle memory, and getting rid of it is an active, conscious effort. You can’t "just write" because only actively thinking about this stuff stops these biases from happening, and they must be stopped.

At first I was hesitant to post this here, but then I realized that no, this is a cognitive bias that we as writers need to be aware of and work actively against. My "main" characters may be relatively gender-diverse (it's not a perfect 50-50 but it's a lot better than I did when I was doing stuff with Arthur's backstory), but plenty of times I catch myself making my "mooks" or throwaway enemies automatically male, and then I have to stop myself and say "no, that's unrealistic, there's nothing about these characters that's inherently male or female so they should be a diverse mix". It's one of the things I noticed all the way back in 66, actually--Sandy's Wolfgang mooks are a mix between male and female, while the vast majority of them presented elsewhere tend to be male. (Even the Sewer Wolves, some of my favorite Wolfgang NPCs, are pretty much all-male now that Little Red's gone to work for the Eubric Herald.) I think the post puts it best: "I try to think about that when writing new characters— is there anything inherently gendered about what this character is doing? Or is it a toaster?"

[Asphalt]

The success of a cross gender character in any form of storytelling (IE a male writer writing female character, not a cross dressing character) lies within the skill of the writer. It takes a skilled writer and observer of human nature to successfully portray someone of the opposite sex, or opposing creed, or foreign culture. I would assume anyone who is an avid reader know exactly what I am talking about. The quickest way to ruin an excellent story is to throw in something you don't know how to write for. And this goes for just about everything from setting, to character, to motivation. I for one would write a terrible war story. I have no background with the subject beyond an academic nature. It would read like someone telling a story about something he read about rather than about something that was experienced. I have read many novels where an exceptionally good author tried to write a compelling character for the opposite sex and failed miserably because they either fell into archetypal cliches, over did it (well I am a man and I would do this, so a woman must do exactly the opposite), or just ended up writing a man that acted like a woman or a woman that acted like a man. Having a real reason for a character or an order to be gender based goes a very long way to help it be successful. AS I said earlier there have ALWAYS been gender based order, sects, and organization throughout human history. And generally there has been a good reason for it. Usually a cultural bias of one form or another, but to that society it is an excellent reason. So long as the mores and culture of the world everyone has created here supports the decision to create a gender based job class I say go for it.

[UsernameMDM]

Holy crap, this made me laugh very hard for very childish reasons!

:laugh:

[Scubacarrot]

...dafuq?

Ohh, you're going Dragoon, aren't you? Jeez, it really is the Month of Major Class Change, isn't it?

That's the plan! I mean, I can always go back to Raider if I end up not staying a Dragoon, might as well try it. With the changes to the class, now seems like as good a time as ever!

[Zepher]

I second basically everything that Flipz said. It may sometimes seem silly to discuss such a thing on an online RPG, but I think it would vastly sillier to not discuss it. Change only comes when people start to live it.

I do have to say that I am proud of the female characters of Heroica for the most part, and that Eubric society seems to be fairly willing to be equal. But it's still something worth discussing.

[UsernameMDM]

I actually agree with Flare. Not trying to get too political, but I don't care too much for forced diversity. I'm all about having diversity, but, like just about everything else, I like it to be organic.

An there is absolutley nothing sexist about it Flipz. Let's just be willing to accept the historical and cultural fact that conflict/war has been DOMINATED by (but not exclusive to) males. It's still that way today whether in real life or in gaming.

Now insisting that female PCs wear skimpy 'armor', well that's another story...

Edited January 11, 2015 by UsernameMDM

[Sandy]

It's one of the things I noticed all the way back in 66, actually--Sandy's Wolfgang mooks are a mix between male and female, while the vast majority of them presented elsewhere tend to be male.

Actually, I've consciously maintained the balance between male and female characters in my quests - sometimes even leaning heavily on females because other QMs don't feature that many female NPCs. Hell, even the hundred people that were captive inside the Academy in Quest#93 consisted of pretty much half and half of both sexes.

I've even made a few ventures into the transgendered zone with a couple of my NPCs, but that type of characters are a bit tricky to write convincingly without resorting to too many stereotypes. I know transgendered people in my real life, and it is hard to imagine they would have been allowed to live the way they want to live in a more uncivilized era...

The success of a cross gender character in any form of storytelling (IE a male writer writing female character, not a cross dressing character) lies within the skill of the writer. It takes a skilled writer and observer of human nature to successfully portray someone of the opposite sex, or opposing creed, or foreign culture.

It might be because I'm a gay man with many close female friends, but I don't find women that much different from men - not in the same sense I see myself different from a person living on the other side of the world. I personally have no trouble writing Ellaria, but perhaps a woman would be a better judge on how well I've done with her.

I do have to say that I am proud of the female characters of Heroica for the most part, and that Eubric society seems to be fairly willing to be equal. But it's still something worth discussing.

What I actually worry about is that we sometimes impose too much of modern sense of morality and lawfulness into what is still a developing world heavily influenced by religions and feudal systems. I'm not saying we should aim for historical accuracy, since this isn't a historical setting, but Eubric is a city without laws, so murder, rape, famine and thievery shouldn't be as strange phenomena in our characters' life as they are in our own.

The same applies to racism and other type of discrimination - the people of Olegaia are hardly the worldly, cultured and highly-educated people that we players are (well, at least in comparably so ). That's why I don't expect absolutely everyone to just accept Nuitan and Lyren's relationship at face value, for an example, even though I myself am a homosexual person. It just wouldn't feel realistic, somehow, even though in a fantasy setting it would be possible.

An there is absolutley nothing sexist about it Flipz. Let's just be willing to accept the historical and cultural fact that conflict/war has been DOMINATED by (but not exclusive to) males. It's still that way today whether in real life or in gaming.

There is the point that this is not a game about our own history, but about a fantasy world. We can shape it the way we want to, but of course historical and cultural realities affect our way of thinking. That's why if we want to include more female warriors etc., we have to do it consciously - because it goes against our subconsciousness.

I am sure nobody here is being sexist or racist on purpose. In fact, playing in a fantasy setting offers us a relatively safe way to explore the themes of sexism and racism without hurting anyone's feelings, which is something I find very intriguing.

[Zepher]

I think this is a good and important discussion. Perhaps vaguely tangential to the game, but not really as it's writing and media based (hell, Lego itself still has trouble with gender representation, though they have improved in recent years).

It might be because I'm a gay man with many close female friends, but I don't find women that much different from men - not in the same sense I see myself different from a person living on the other side of the world. I personally have no trouble writing Ellaria, but perhaps a woman would be a better judge on how well I've done with her.

This is a debate I have with a lot of my friends. I do think that writing different genders and sexualities and people hailing from different places IS different. Just in the same way that writing a blind person would be very different than writing someone who can see. I believe all people are equal, but that doesn't mean they aren't diverse. I know that it takes more thought to write for a female character for me if I want them to be fully realized, because part of that full realization is to exhibit things I don't experience (again, same with a blind person or someone with a different core ideology or different socio-economical background). So basically we agree, I think, that there is a difference - not a great one, but one that must be recognized at least to fully embrace the character instead of ignoring that portion of their person.

What I actually worry about is that we sometimes impose too much of modern sense of morality and lawfulness into what is still a developing world heavily influenced by religions and feudal systems. I'm not saying we should aim for historical accuracy, since this isn't a historical setting, but Eubric is a city without laws, so murder, rape, famine and thievery shouldn't be as strange phenomena in our characters' life as they are in our own.

The same applies to racism and other type of discrimination - the people of Olegaia are hardly the worldly, cultured and highly-educated people that we players are (well, at least in comparably so ). That's why I don't expect absolutely everyone to just accept Nuitan and Lyren's relationship at face value, for an example, even though I myself am a homosexual person. It just wouldn't feel realistic, somehow, even though in a fantasy setting it would be possible.

It's a hard balance, I agree. Of course, we're modeling Heroica after Europe, which did have a stigma against homo-sexuality (as an example) that did not exist in most older asian cultures. Certain Native American tribes thought there were four genders, and sexuality wasn't a question for them. So "less civilized beliefs" are different all over. But I still agree, exploring those hardships might be something that we can try to handle respectfully, but not ignore. But then again, this is as you said fantasy. So really anything goes!

[Lind Whisperer]

In fact, playing in a fantasy setting offers us a relatively safe way to explore the themes of sexism and racism without hurting anyone's feelings, which is something I find very intriguing.

The thing is though, what should you do when your character encounters a race that his race is historically against, with minor good reason?

Take for example, Lind's recent chat with Boris. Historically, the Munchkins have absolutely no race issues against any race - except vampires. There's a little more to it(which delves into parts of the Munchkin back story that are better explained through quests), but basically, they look at vampires as a potential Zombie Apocalypse scenario that could suddenly be unleashed at any moment. Which, on the one hand is technically racist, seeing as how there are plenty of vampires like Boris who just want to live peacefully. But on the other hand, unlike most real-world racist fears, the idea of vampires suddenly going vampire on the world is a technically possible threat, and nowhere near as hard to carry out as it might be supposed(Heck, one of the houses is led by a vampire).

It's a hard balance, I agree. Of course, we're modeling Heroica after Europe, which did have a stigma against homo-sexuality (as an example) that did not exist in most older asian cultures. Certain Native American tribes thought there were four genders, and sexuality wasn't a question for them. So "less civilized beliefs" are different all over. But I still agree, exploring those hardships might be something that we can try to handle respectfully, but not ignore. But then again, this is as you said fantasy. So really anything goes!

Don't forget, Athens had plenty of male-gendered homosexuality. It might not have been entirely supported, but it was put in about the same category as we put older men with money marrying women much younger than themselves today. Not to mention Sparta - where being straight wasn't even a thing, until you were 30.

[Waterbrick Down]

The thing is though, what should you do when your character encounters a race that his race is historically against, with minor good reason?

Take for example, Lind's recent chat with Boris. Historically, the Munchkins have absolutely no race issues against any race - except vampires. There's a little more to it(which delves into parts of the Munchkin back story that are better explained through quests), but basically, they look at vampires as a potential Zombie Apocalypse scenario that could suddenly be unleashed at any moment. Which, on the one hand is technically racist, seeing as how there are plenty of vampires like Boris who just want to live peacefully. But on the other hand, unlike most real-world racist fears, the idea of vampires suddenly going vampire on the world is a technically possible threat, and nowhere near as hard to carry out as it might be supposed(Heck, one of the houses is led by a vampire).

If you're afraid of showing hostility towards Boris, I wouldn't see anything wrong with it, seems like a reasonable response. If I ever start another character I've got an womanizing Elvish snob sitting on the sidelines currently.

[Cutcobra]

(Heck, one of the houses is led by a vampire).

If you're talikng about The Shadeuax, Noctus just has a disease.

If you're talking about The Guild, Dr. Cula is not the leader.

[KotZ]

Actually, I've consciously maintained the balance between male and female characters in my quests - sometimes even leaning heavily on females because other QMs don't feature that many female NPCs. Hell, even the hundred people that were captive inside the Academy in Quest#93 consisted of pretty much half and half of both sexes.

I've even made a few ventures into the transgendered zone with a couple of my NPCs, but that type of characters are a bit tricky to write convincingly without resorting to too many stereotypes. I know transgendered people in my real life, and it is hard to imagine they would have been allowed to live the way they want to live in a more uncivilized era...

It might be because I'm a gay man with many close female friends, but I don't find women that much different from men - not in the same sense I see myself different from a person living on the other side of the world. I personally have no trouble writing Ellaria, but perhaps a woman would be a better judge on how well I've done with her.

What I actually worry about is that we sometimes impose too much of modern sense of morality and lawfulness into what is still a developing world heavily influenced by religions and feudal systems. I'm not saying we should aim for historical accuracy, since this isn't a historical setting, but Eubric is a city without laws, so murder, rape, famine and thievery shouldn't be as strange phenomena in our characters' life as they are in our own.

The same applies to racism and other type of discrimination - the people of Olegaia are hardly the worldly, cultured and highly-educated people that we players are (well, at least in comparably so ). That's why I don't expect absolutely everyone to just accept Nuitan and Lyren's relationship at face value, for an example, even though I myself am a homosexual person. It just wouldn't feel realistic, somehow, even though in a fantasy setting it would be possible.

There is the point that this is not a game about our own history, but about a fantasy world. We can shape it the way we want to, but of course historical and cultural realities affect our way of thinking. That's why if we want to include more female warriors etc., we have to do it consciously - because it goes against our subconsciousness.

I am sure nobody here is being sexist or racist on purpose. In fact, playing in a fantasy setting offers us a relatively safe way to explore the themes of sexism and racism without hurting anyone's feelings, which is something I find very intriguing.

Heroica is very much a fantasy game; as much as we try to keep it realistic with all of the monsters and laws that have been put in place, there will always be these (somewhat) fictional elements that come in. There's no reason Olegia can't be equal; Bioware manages to do it pretty well regarding sexuality and equality of genders, but even to some of the most progressive thinkers, BW doesn't do enough. On the other hand, Heroica is able to adapt to what the critics (players) think relatively quickly. Just throw in a new quest and there we go. Heroica is very much our game rather than someone else's. We decide how the world plays out, and there is better player agency in making decisions. It's not just "Pick what dialogue choice", it's "Write your dialogue."

I think you do a great job of writing female characters, Sandy. And I agree, men aren't too different from women; everyone has their desires and hopes, needs, etc. The only difference is who/what is the object in question and how people achieve them. Most of my friends, gay and straight, have come to the conclusion we're basically the same as well.

I think this is a good and important discussion. Perhaps vaguely tangential to the game, but not really as it's writing and media based (hell, Lego itself still has trouble with gender representation, though they have improved in recent years).

This is a debate I have with a lot of my friends. I do think that writing different genders and sexualities and people hailing from different places IS different. Just in the same way that writing a blind person would be very different than writing someone who can see. I believe all people are equal, but that doesn't mean they aren't diverse. I know that it takes more thought to write for a female character for me if I want them to be fully realized, because part of that full realization is to exhibit things I don't experience (again, same with a blind person or someone with a different core ideology or different socio-economical background). So basically we agree, I think, that there is a difference - not a great one, but one that must be recognized at least to fully embrace the character instead of ignoring that portion of their person.

It's a hard balance, I agree. Of course, we're modeling Heroica after Europe, which did have a stigma against homo-sexuality (as an example) that did not exist in most older asian cultures. Certain Native American tribes thought there were four genders, and sexuality wasn't a question for them. So "less civilized beliefs" are different all over. But I still agree, exploring those hardships might be something that we can try to handle respectfully, but not ignore. But then again, this is as you said fantasy. So really anything goes!

I've met quite a few people in our major that have said "You can't write female characters because you're a straight, white male." It is different, mainly because traditional gender roles are ingrained in society (be that good or bad, that's a different debate) so maybe it is more difficult, but who says you can't write a blind character even if you can see. That's the beauty of art, film, writing, etc. The thing created is not real, but it's supposed to feel real, or how you perceive it would be.

[Asphalt]

Let me just pop in that I am quite pleased with how civil this discussion is remaining. A fairly rare thing on the interwebs. Good Show old boys. (hmm where is my Downton abby font when I need it?)

[KotZ]

Let me just pop in that I am quite pleased with how civil this discussion is remaining. A fairly rare thing on the interwebs. Good Show old boys. (hmm where is my Downton abby font when I need it?)

I'd like to think EuroBricks is a little classier than even discussion sections on various news sources on the internet. Maybe it's the minifigures. I think people would be a lot more civil if LEGO was used to explain things.

[Palathadric]

Because that's maintaining the status quo that male characters are almost always overrepresented--particularly in the fantasy genre and RPGs in particular. (Not to mention that when female characters do appear, they tend to get shoehorned into minor supporting roles and/or end up written poorly.) The idea that a male player should "default" to a male character is sexist and wrong. If someone wants to play a male character, fine, it's their choice, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage a more diverse fictional world.

I don't see anything wrong with encouraging people to play whichever kind of character they want or feel comfortable playing as. I do admire the fellows among us who have gone the length to write for female characters well. I don't mind them being rewarded for their efforts, but I can understand those who feel otherwise. For people whose main joy out of Heroica is min-maxing, then it can be annoying to not have the options others have available just because of their role-playing choice at the beginning of the game.

By the way, since we're talking about it. I would very much like to applaud Sandy for creating so many female NPCs! It certainly does add variety to Heroica's world.

I actually agree with Flare. Not trying to get too political, but I don't care too much for forced diversity. I'm all about having diversity, but, like just about everything else, I like it to be organic.

I have to agree here too. There are sometimes when female characters can just come across as forced, especially when one writes for too many of them. That's another reason why I appreciate Sandy's female NPCs a lot. I don't see that "forcedness."

Now insisting that female PCs wear skimpy 'armor', well that's another story...

What? Skimpy armour iz da best eva!!!

"no, that's unrealistic, there's nothing about these characters that's inherently male or female so they should be a diverse mix".

Actually it is quite realistic. But I suppose in a fantasy world it might not be. But let's not go there.

I'd like to think EuroBricks is a little classier than even discussion sections on various news sources on the internet. Maybe it's the minifigures. I think people would be a lot more civil if LEGO was used to explain things.

I was just going to say that. Well said! Well said!

Emoticons help too. Who can get worked up when they see this little thing in a post:

Dawww!!!

[Asphalt]

You're right I was about to get blustery and angry for no reason, but with him there I just couldn't do it.