Do you think that Alien Conquest is up to Lego Space standards?

[Commander Adama]

I have to say I am disappointed with LEGO, I loved the Mars Mission sets and these sets don't live up to the standards that the old Space sets we used to have.

[IAmWillGibson]

Maybe I'm out of my element here, because you guys really seem to know what you're talking about, but IS Alien Conquest a "Space" theme?

I mean, yeah... aliens come from space. But the sets are firmly terrestrial. It's more a modified City theme. Or, rather, part of the nebulous "action" category [which themselves are generally arguably modified City themes as well.

You can't really consider any of the ADU vehicles to be space vehicles, because they're not.

Having said all that... I'm waiting patiently for a set featuring a half-destroyed farmhouse and some cows on fire.

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

Maybe I'm out of my element here, because you guys really seem to know what you're talking about, but IS Alien Conquest a "Space" theme?

I mean, yeah... aliens come from space. But the sets are firmly terrestrial. It's more a modified City theme. Or, rather, part of the nebulous "action" category [which themselves are generally arguably modified City themes as well.

You can't really consider any of the ADU vehicles to be space vehicles, because they're not.

Having said all that... I'm waiting patiently for a set featuring a half-destroyed farmhouse and some cows on fire.

Indeed as you point out, there seems to be a taxonomical issue here. Many don't consider AQ to be a Space theme (I actually do but have my doubts). Nevertheless, somebody here said that it was Lego's classification, although I can't say so myself.

If we only had the ADU, it would definitely be a city theme. The faction is militaristic, and doesn't have that "spacey" feel to it. On the other hand, the alien ships are most definitely space. So, City, Space, or hybrid? I don't know. Regardless, it seems that Lego feels that this theme fills up the place of a "space theme", and this is what bothers me.

Edited September 28, 2011 by johnnyvgoode

[Aanchir]

Indeed as you point out, there seems to be a taxonomical issue here. Many don't consider AQ to be a Space theme (I actually do but have my doubts). Nevertheless, somebody here said that it was Lego's classification, although I can't say so myself.

If we only had the ADU, it would definitely be a city theme. The faction is militaristic, and doesn't have that "spacey" feel to it. On the other hand, the alien ships are most definitely space. So, City, Space, or hybrid? I don't know. Regardless, it seems that Lego feels that this theme fills up the place of a "space theme", and this is what bothers me.

Well, Mark Stafford (a major Classic Space fan and space set designer since Mars Mission) considered it a Space theme when talking about it prior to and after its launch. I think that shows where TLG stands on the issue.

Why does having a Space theme with an Earth component bother you? Earth is in space, and in fact plays a key role in many space adventure stories. It's not a classic "deep space" theme, for sure, but neither were Life on Mars, Mars Mission, or-- based on some sources-- UFO. I think LEGO's spirit of imagination means that we should allow them the freedom to explore factions like the ADU who pay homage to human military forces in films like Starship Troopers, Avatar, or Aliens.

The big question is that if this weren't a Space theme, what would it be? Action themes is an arbitrary concept we use here on Eurobricks for pretty much anything minifig-scale that doesn't fit in some other forum division (arguably some, like Aquazone, are decidedly sci-fi). If it weren't a Space theme, do you really think it would be more balanced to have a "normal" Space theme running concurrently with Alien Conquest? Considering the City space subtheme this year, I think that a third space-oriented theme would be major overkill, even if it were more "traditional". I'm not entirely sure what difference it would make to people if Alien Conquest were not considered a Space theme, because frankly it would be taking the place of a Space theme with its release no matter what it was classified as.

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

Well, Mark Stafford (a major Classic Space fan and space set designer since Mars Mission) considered it a Space theme when talking about it prior to and after its launch. I think that shows where TLG stands on the issue.

It's nice to have a source on that. Thanks.

Why does having a Space theme with an Earth component bother you? Earth is in space, and in fact plays a key role in many space adventure stories. It's not a classic "deep space" theme, for sure, but neither were Life on Mars, Mars Mission, or-- based on some sources-- UFO. I think LEGO's spirit of imagination means that we should allow them the freedom to explore factions like the ADU who pay homage to human military forces in films like Starship Troopers, Avatar, or Aliens.

It doesn't bother me to have this theme, it bothers me to only have this theme as a space theme. It's not as much the fact that it happens on Earth, but that this theme doesn't address life in space as much as previous themes. As a result, for my taste, there is currently no theme in Lego which satisfies my desire for adventures in space. And as somebody who is not a fan of military, and actually feel some aversion for it, I most definitely don't like having a theme with such a strong military element. But that is another issue. My point is that for people like me (and I'm not alone), who want space themes that are more deeply related with space, there is no theme that suits that desire right now. And I think that many have a fair point when they mention this.

The big question is that if this weren't a Space theme, what would it be? Action themes is an arbitrary concept we use here on Eurobricks for pretty much anything minifig-scale that doesn't fit in some other forum division (arguably some, like Aquazone, are decidedly sci-fi). If it weren't a Space theme, do you really think it would be more balanced to have a "normal" Space theme running concurrently with Alien Conquest? Considering the City space subtheme this year, I think that a third space-oriented theme would be major overkill, even if it were more "traditional". I'm not entirely sure what difference it would make to people if Alien Conquest were not considered a Space theme, because frankly it would be taking the place of a Space theme with its release no matter what it was classified as.

It's not about whether or not it is considered a Space theme. I don't think that is the "big question" at all, because that is barely a technicism. It's about what fans feel they want, and I think that Lego might be failing slightly here in thinking that fans only want these space themes at this time. Of course, they probably don't think that it is worth the risk, and after all their main purpose is profit, but I think that it is evident that a considerable amount of fans would like a different space theme. And sure, many fans could still buy sets from a new space theme, because it's not all of them who want sets with present-day astronauts or sets that depict an alien invasion in near present day Earth.

Edited September 28, 2011 by johnnyvgoode

[Haltiamieli]

It's about what fans feel they want, and I think that Lego might be failing slightly here in thinking that fans only want these space themes at this time.

Lego doesn't think that people want only Alien Conquest at this time. They think that at this time might be a good moment to try a theme like Alien Conquest for a change, because whatever they do they can't sell all the possible themes at once anyway. They can produce only a limited amount of themes, they can market only a limited amount of themes, retailers are willing to stock only a limited amount of themes... And as a general rule, all the themes should be as different from each other as possible, so that Lego could reach the greatest amount of customers.

With a little bit different Space theme Lego may attract some new fans, and probably can still retain most of the old fanbase, either because they like the theme or because they do not dislike it enough to stop them from buying it. And if Lego's predictions are wrong and Alien Conquest is a big miss for them, in today's quick circulation of different themes it's to be quickly forgotten when a new theme, maybe this time in deep space, kicks in.

That's how it works in many other themes too. Most Fantasy Era fans are probably still buying Kingdoms sets even if they think those are a bit boring, and when the fantasy element inevitably returns to Castle, sooner or later, most Castle fans will buy that theme too, even if they would personally rather have a more realistic theme like Kingdoms. And kids, Lego's main customers, aren't that picky anyway.

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

Lego doesn't think that people want only Alien Conquest at this time. They think that at this time might be a good moment to try a theme like Alien Conquest for a change, because whatever they do they can't sell all the possible themes at once anyway. They can produce only a limited amount of themes, they can market only a limited amount of themes, retailers are willing to stock only a limited amount of themes... And as a general rule, all the themes should be as different from each other as possible, so that Lego could reach the greatest amount of customers.

With a little bit different Space theme Lego may attract some new fans, and probably can still retain most of the old fanbase, either because they like the theme or because they do not dislike it enough to stop them from buying it. And if Lego's predictions are wrong and Alien Conquest is a big miss for them, in today's quick circulation of different themes it's to be quickly forgotten when a new theme, maybe this time in deep space, kicks in.

That's how it works in many other themes too. Most Fantasy Era fans are probably still buying Kingdoms sets even if they think those are a bit boring, and when the fantasy element inevitably returns to Castle, sooner or later, most Castle fans will buy that theme too, even if they would personally rather have a more realistic theme like Kingdoms. And kids, Lego's main customers, aren't that picky anyway.

I do hope that it's not that they think that AQ fulfills what fans what at this time from space, and that they don't release other space themes because of logistics. You do make a lot of fair points, and one of the things that comforts me is that this theme won't be around forever. But still, what is it that has changed that doesn't allow Lego to have multiple space themes as before? Is it the licensed themes?

[AndyC]

I do hope that it's not that they think that AQ fulfills what fans what at this time from space, and that they don't release other space themes because of logistics. You do make a lot of fair points, and one of the things that comforts me is that this theme won't be around forever. But still, what is it that has changed that doesn't allow Lego to have multiple space themes as before? Is it the licensed themes?

Right now they have Alien Conquest, the City Space line and, of course, Star Wars. That covers a pretty wide variety of different space interests, so it's not like it's being ignored.

[jonwil]

I like Alien Conquest and hope it gets a second wave in 2012, there is so much potential for this theme (more so than junk like NinjaGo :)

Although I hope whatever space theme comes next after Alien Conquest is more like the space themes of old (Classic Space, Futuron, Space Police, Blacktron, M:Tron, Ice Planet) and less like themes such as Mars Mission or Space Police III

[Aanchir]

I do hope that it's not that they think that AQ fulfills what fans what at this time from space, and that they don't release other space themes because of logistics. You do make a lot of fair points, and one of the things that comforts me is that this theme won't be around forever. But still, what is it that has changed that doesn't allow Lego to have multiple space themes as before? Is it the licensed themes?

TLG has almost never had more than one new Space theme at one time. The few instances I can think of are themes like Unitron and Roboforce which were rather small themes largely exclusive to North America. TLG has sometimes continued an existing Space theme with new sets and introduced a new Space theme in the same year, as with Futuron and Blacktron in 1987 and 1988, but in later years this mostly tended to happen only with impulse sets, region-exclusive promotional sets, and value packs.

For instance, look at the 1991 lineup or the 1996 lineup. Besides region-exclusive sets, impulse sets, promotional sets, and value packs, these years largely only had one Space theme apiece. And even if Alien Conquest isn't as "traditional" as the Space themes of these years, it is still a Space-oriented sci-fi theme, and having two of those at one time could have led to the themes competing with one another for sales (not to mention taking up space on store shelves that could instead go towards more diverse themes like Ninjago, City, and the various licensed themes).

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

Right now they have Alien Conquest, the City Space line and, of course, Star Wars. That covers a pretty wide variety of different space interests, so it's not like it's being ignored.

I agree that it's very wide, but considering SW is a licensed theme, I do think that there's an empty space right now. Of course, I think that it is only natural for Lego not to release another space theme at this time for the reasons that you people have pointed out. But the fact that I understand that doesn't mean that it doesn't bother me, on a personal leve.

TLG has almost never had more than one new Space theme at one time. The few instances I can think of are themes like Unitron and Roboforce which were rather small themes largely exclusive to North America. TLG has sometimes continued an existing Space theme with new sets and introduced a new Space theme in the same year, as with Futuron and Blacktron in 1987 and 1988, but in later years this mostly tended to happen only with impulse sets, region-exclusive promotional sets, and value packs.

For instance, look at the 1991 lineup or the 1996 lineup. Besides region-exclusive sets, impulse sets, promotional sets, and value packs, these years largely only had one Space theme apiece. And even if Alien Conquest isn't as "traditional" as the Space themes of these years, it is still a Space-oriented sci-fi theme, and having two of those at one time could have led to the themes competing with one another for sales (not to mention taking up space on store shelves that could instead go towards more diverse themes like Ninjago, City, and the various licensed themes).

Are you sure of that? The Brickset info is based on release dates, and sets are not only sold in their release dates. Besides, I remember seeing many space themes in one single Lego catalog. If I'm not mistaken, I remember seeing Exploriens and UFO in the same one. I always thought that this meant that the themes were sold at the same time. Wasn't that the case?

Edited September 29, 2011 by johnnyvgoode

[CP5670]

The main difference back then is that TLG had each set in production for about 3 years, so the Space theme releases overlapped and there were a couple of themes available (and advertised) at any given time. Today, if they release a new theme, they usually end production of the old theme altogether. Also, most of the 80s/90s themes were obviously intended to exist in the same universe and complement each other, whereas the modern themes like SP3 and AC don't really fit together.

Edited September 30, 2011 by CP5670

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

The main difference back then is that TLG had each set in production for about 3 years, so the Space theme releases overlapped and there were a couple of themes available (and advertised) at any given time. Today, if they release a new theme, they usually end production of the old theme altogether. Also, most of the 80s/90s themes were obviously intended to exist in the same universe and complement each other, whereas the modern themes like SP3 and AC don't really fit together.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I liked the old system better though. It seems to me that we had a wider variety of space sets at any given time. Right now, although we do have SW and city space, I feel that we don't have that same variety in space sets.

Did they change that custom for any particular reason? Perhaps the cost of designing that much themes is much higher?

[Aanchir]

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I liked the old system better though. It seems to me that we had a wider variety of space sets at any given time. Right now, although we do have SW and city space, I feel that we don't have that same variety in space sets.

Did they change that custom for any particular reason? Perhaps the cost of designing that much themes is much higher?

It's possible that themes that aren't new just don't sell as well-- either to consumers, or to retailers. Also, the more money spent advertising sets that aren't new, the less available to be spent advertising new sets. There are also probably production-related reasons for having only one year of sets in production at any one time-- I'm sure it requires fewer machines to print minifigures for one theme than minifigures for three themes, and is probably less of a hassle for quality control.

Additionally, I'm not entirely sure whether the multiple-themes-per-year sales pattern was a result of continuing to produce older sets for multiple years or just a result of producing more than one wave's worth of them to begin with. Looking at old U.S. Shop at Home catalogs, I seem to notice a hint of desperation on the pages advertising previous years' sets. Now, if retailers were willing to continue buying the same themes for multiple years, there's no real difference between producing a large number of the sets to begin with and producing the same sets in multiple waves. But if a theme or even a particular set came along that was a "flop" in terms of sales, you can understand how TLG would have a hard time getting rid of whatever surplus they might have produced.

There's also the fact that with today's multi-faction themes, having a wide number of sub-themes in production at any one time isn't as necessary for a full play experience. Of course, that opens a whole new can of worms, since many people-- with a number of valid reasons-- preferred single-faction themes that could interact with one another to today's multi-faction themes. Suffice it to say that multi-faction themes seem to have proven much more successful than single-faction themes due to their "straight out of the box" role-play potential, and I don't foresee a return to single-faction themes any time in the future.

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

It's possible that themes that aren't new just don't sell as well-- either to consumers, or to retailers. Also, the more money spent advertising sets that aren't new, the less available to be spent advertising new sets. There are also probably production-related reasons for having only one year of sets in production at any one time-- I'm sure it requires fewer machines to print minifigures for one theme than minifigures for three themes, and is probably less of a hassle for quality control.

Additionally, I'm not entirely sure whether the multiple-themes-per-year sales pattern was a result of continuing to produce older sets for multiple years or just a result of producing more than one wave's worth of them to begin with. Looking at old U.S. Shop at Home catalogs, I seem to notice a hint of desperation on the pages advertising previous years' sets. Now, if retailers were willing to continue buying the same themes for multiple years, there's no real difference between producing a large number of the sets to begin with and producing the same sets in multiple waves. But if a theme or even a particular set came along that was a "flop" in terms of sales, you can understand how TLG would have a hard time getting rid of whatever surplus they might have produced.

There's also the fact that with today's multi-faction themes, having a wide number of sub-themes in production at any one time isn't as necessary for a full play experience. Of course, that opens a whole new can of worms, since many people-- with a number of valid reasons-- preferred single-faction themes that could interact with one another to today's multi-faction themes. Suffice it to say that multi-faction themes seem to have proven much more successful than single-faction themes due to their "straight out of the box" role-play potential, and I don't foresee a return to single-faction themes any time in the future.

That makes a lot of sense. As usual, you have provided a lot of useful information. Thanks.

[CP5670]

Additionally, I'm not entirely sure whether the multiple-themes-per-year sales pattern was a result of continuing to produce older sets for multiple years or just a result of producing more than one wave's worth of them to begin with. Looking at old U.S. Shop at Home catalogs, I seem to notice a hint of desperation on the pages advertising previous years' sets. Now, if retailers were willing to continue buying the same themes for multiple years, there's no real difference between producing a large number of the sets to begin with and producing the same sets in multiple waves. But if a theme or even a particular set came along that was a "flop" in terms of sales, you can understand how TLG would have a hard time getting rid of whatever surplus they might have produced.

The sets were in fact made in a different production run each year. You can tell which year a set was made in from the catalogs they came with or from pieces that underwent minor revisions, and sometimes the boxes or manuals had small changes too.

Some themes did appear in the catalogs with a reduced selection of sets in the third year of the theme's life, and it was apparent that they were just trying to clear out stock at that point. TLG gradually shifted from a 3 year timeframe to a 2 year one in the mid to late 90s.

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

Hey people, sorry for bumping this, but I turned this into a poll (which I couldn't do before), and now that Alien Conquest is leaving us, perhaps you could say some final thoughts. As for me, I changed my mind after seeing some of the sets. I don't think that they're up to the previous designs, but I find them fairly good.

[Faefrost]

Thoughts on the line? The large set, Earth Defense Force HQ 7066 will stand as one of the all time classic Lego Space sets, and just sets in general. It has everything and then some. The rest of the line was sort of hit or miss. The Alien stuff was neat but didn't really reach out and grab you, and the Mothership was a bit disappointing.

The ADF troops were just fantastic. The Aliens cute but a little generic.

[Hrw-Amen]

Well, after getting all the sets I think my favourite is the alien UFO, (The one beaming up the farmer.) The mother-ship was a bit rubbish as the whole point of a mother-ship is that it is a mother to other ships and none of the alien vessels could connect to it. The Earth Defence HQ is the best ADU set though. I did really like the alien minifigs and wish we had more of them and also the ADU troopers. With the Pink Space Girl, Galaxy Patrol and ADU the human space faction now has some pretty good up to date troopers of one kind or another. What is needed is a good mix of aliens as well.

[Faefrost]

Well, after getting all the sets I think my favourite is the alien UFO, (The one beaming up the farmer.) The mother-ship was a bit rubbish as the whole point of a mother-ship is that it is a mother to other ships and none of the alien vessels could connect to it. The Earth Defence HQ is the best ADU set though. I did really like the alien minifigs and wish we had more of them and also the ADU troopers. With the Pink Space Girl, Galaxy Patrol and ADU the human space faction now has some pretty good up to date troopers of one kind or another. What is needed is a good mix of aliens as well.

I agree the Alien Abduction saucer was a great little set, if for no other reason the the farmer abductee minifig. The Mothership had some neat and unusual pieces, but it was too big to shelf display, while at the same time not actually having anything interesting in the way of mothers hippiness, such as carrying capacity. It had 2 minifigs and a clinger. Definite minus. The Jet Copter set is decent, with some nice play with the 2 into 1 alien fighter.

As I type this I am thinking you could probably MOC up a really nice "real" Alien Mothership using the newer release of the Milenium Falcon. Just complete the saucer shape all the way around, replace the quads with domed cockpits, greebly heavily in green and purple, stick a tripod type landing gear on the bottom, and do the interior as cow abduction central. ( now if only I had the budget or shelf space for another MF to do this with, /sigh)

[Ferrik]

I guess they are up to standard, they're just a bit different to the usual sets.

[jasbury]

I'd say it's up to LEGO standards, its just not quite as "retro-futuristic."

We see more helicopters, and less starfighters.

[Tim_AZ]

AC is the line that brought me back into Lego so they must be doing something right. Even my wife is into it. It is a shame that it had such a limited run.

[BrickPicker]

I like the Alien Conquest theme. Simple, old school Space sets!

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

Simple, old school Space sets!

I'd have to disagree. The ADU clearly makes an homage to the Classic Space sets, but overall the designs seem very different to me than the original Classic Space sets. For that, you'd have to look at the Neo-Classic MOCs people have done, in my opinion.

By the way, I'm surprised at the poll results so far. I thought support for the theme was stronger.