eBay user sells instructions for other builder's MOCs

[brickcitydepot]

This is Brian from brickcitydepot.com. Someone alerted me to someone named miskolc_downtown who was selling my higgins boat instructions on another auction website. http://www.vatera.hu/item/view/index.php?cod=1522041203

He bought my instructions and turned around and sold them elsewhere.

I was also alerted to another seller on ebay: laygoman28

He pretty much copied one of my houses and is selling the plans for it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lego-Modular-House-Home-10185-10182-10218-10211-Instructions-Town-Green-Grocer-/270880837981?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f11c1915d

he copied the dark blue house in this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280696360860&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

I am really dumfounded by the 2nd one who put in a lot of time to copy something that wasn't his. In his description he writes: "Or make it a blue house with white trim, etc." And at the bottom he states "-I created this house. I own the rights to this unique design." and he goes on to forbid people to sell what they make with their own lego pieces.

Both of these instances make me angry beyond belief and I would suggest everyone steer clear of these criminals.

[L@go]

I am really dumfounded by the 2nd one who put in a lot of time to copy something that wasn't his. In his description he writes: "Or make it a blue house with white trim, etc." And at the bottom he states "-I created this house. I own the rights to this unique design." and he goes on to forbid people to sell what they make with their own lego pieces.

Both of these instances make me angry beyond belief and I would suggest everyone steer clear of these criminals.

Have you reported him to eBay? And if yes, what is their reply?

Also, the response that danim got really annoys me. Shutinc has never allowed him to sell those instructions. What does it help if he states that it's not his design? A**hole.

[Hinckley]

well here is the reply from the seller himself

Oh, really??? I'd like to impale him upon the Eiffel Tower.

Miran 0620: Painters have talent, you douchebag. They are painting a building with a landscape and creating an artwork with a building in it. What you are doing is creating a schematic for a building very similar to the Eiffel Tower and selling it and profiting from someone else's work. It's like looking at the Louvre museum and rendering it in Rhino and claiming you designed it, you worthless piece of shit.

(danim, I am responding to the quote you quoted, not directly to you. Thank you for bringing his asinine statement to our attention. How were you able to contact him and may I have his e-mail address or whatever contact info you have? )

[vexorian]

Oh, really??? I'd like to impale him upon the Eiffel Tower.

Miran 0620: Painters have talent, you douchebag. They are painting a building with a landscape and creating an artwork with a building in it. What you are doing is creating a schematic for a building very similar to the Eiffel Tower and selling it and profiting from someone else's work.

I object to the seller adding a disclaimer saying that it is his design and that nobody should copy it. It is hypocritical. However, Reverse engineering instructions out of pictures of a design does take skill and is work. As there are reports of some mistakes in the instructions and do not make a perfect copy of the original design I guess it kind of means that the guy is being honest about reverse engineering the original design.

Intellectual property is an ambiguous term that doesn't help us at all. It is good to understand that there is actually no such thing as intellectual property. What we do have is copyrights, patents and trademarks, each of which is a different can of worms.

When we talk about "owning a design" then we would be talking about patents. I don't think the original maker of the town hall really owns the design. As it is likely not patented.

Then we have copyright, in this case there is no need to register anything and the second you release your instructions, if you do not specify otherwise there is an implicit copyright notice you are making. However, If the instructions are really reverse engineered rather than copies of the original instructions then it is a blurry area. If even while modified in format, the instructions are nearly identical to the original then there would be truly a case not of theft but of copyright infringement. In that case , it is best to report to ebay. But if the instructions are unique in their own I don't think there is much of a case. Surely, it is a shame and this is wrong, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is illegal or that ebay would stop it (it requires the instructions to be at least relatively copies of the originals)

PS: Aside of the intellectual property stuff. I would report to ebay anyway, as when the guy claims that it is an original design it is sort of fraud. And ebay is a private company anyway so perhaps you don't really need to prove your case just to have the thing removed.

Edited January 7, 2012 by vexorian

[L@go]

You're not reading the posts in this thread properly before posting.

We're talking about at least four different sellers here - the one that was originally reported, miran0620 on eBay, started his business with making instructions for other people's creations by studying pictures on the web - which is a grey area at best - and then proceeded to advertise them for sale on eBay by using the original pictures that other people have snapped of their own creations. Which isn't grey at all, it's pretty black and white, as he doesn't own the rights to those pictures. Now, after having been told by three of his 'victims' that they don't approve of what he's doing, he's swapped the pictures from their creations with digital renders from his instructions (but still haven't done so with the creations that he hasn't yet received any complaints about). He admits the creations weren't his to begin with, but claims it's like offering a painting of the Eiffel Tower for sale. It's important to understand that if none of the people whose creations he originally copied, had objected, he'd have gone on selling the instructions without saying anything about the models being his designs, still using the pictures he didn't own. He's not at all being honest, he's admitting - under pressure - that he's a copycat.

Then there are others that claim that their copied designs are their own, like the one that brickcitydepot is talking about. That's definitely copyright infringement. And others again who sell on instructions that they've bought from somebody else - which is piracy.

I'm not really sure where you're going with your post. But I like this thread. The temperature is rising :)

[Hinckley]

I object to the seller adding a disclaimer saying that it is his design and that nobody should copy it. It is hypocritical. However, Reverse engineering instructions out of pict...ort to ebay anyway, as when the guy claims that it is an original design it is sort of fraud. And ebay is a private company anyway so perhaps you don't really need to prove your case just to have the thing removed.

Hey! We're not talking about copyrights, we're talking about breaking his kneecaps.

[peterab]

You can only publish them, if Jamie Berard allows you so. It is still his intellectual property.

Jamie (or maybe TLG depending on his employment conditions) has the IP of the town hall design. The instructions are copyright the original author, so even if Jamie gave permission you couldn't publish them, you'd have to make your own to legally publish.

When we talk about "owning a design" then we would be talking about patents. I don't think the original maker of the town hall really owns the design. As it is likely not patented.

Depends on the type of design, if for example it's an engineering idea, where the reverse engineering wont work without using the idea (which most likely rests on some physical principal) then you are correct, but in other areas such as knitting patterns where the design is more artistic, then copyright may be more appropriate. And all this will vary from region to region to some extent. I'd expect the design to be copyright here in Australia rather than patentable. Patents tend to need to be unique and non-obvious too whereas building with LEGO would be the obvious use of LEGO bricks so it couldn't be patented in any reasonable patent system IMHO.

I think TLG probably does hold copyright to it's designs so original Mocs designs are probably also protected by copyright. More problematic is protecting those rights. The author of the instructions probably holds copyright on those, but not the design, which is where it gets tricky.

I would report to ebay anyway, as when the guy claims that it is an original design it is sort of fraud. And ebay is a private company anyway so perhaps you don't really need to prove your case just to have the thing removed.

Ebay is notoriosly hard to get to act, so report it if you can. This guy seems to be linking to others copyright images, which is against eBay an Flickr terms of use so that might help. Persistence will help here, there's a woman in knitting circles who republishes out of copyright knitting patterns, who now has good success getting illegal copies of her updated instructions taken down, but it took her a long while to get there. I could follow up further if anybody wanted a link to her blog where she discusses how she manages it.

Hey! We're not talking about copyrights, we're talking about breaking his kneecaps.

On a slightly more serious note perhaps a co-ordinated witch hunt against his Ebay account might help - bring your own thwacking impliments

[peterab]

Nowadays, whenever I go to a gay bar all I can think is "Turn the music down." I'm getting old. Also, I hate showtunes, Lady Gaga and glitter...

I'm a little like this from my goth days. I hate glitter, it's nearly impossible to get it out of carpet, one babygoth girlfriend and my house was covered in glitter for 10 years ... though I still think Ramstein needs to be loud

[Hinckley]

On a slightly more serious note perhaps a co-ordinated witch hunt against his Ebay account might help - bring your own thwacking impliments

Finally, someone's being serious. Yes! The whacking witch hunt must commence immediamente!!

I'm a little like this from my goth days. I hate glitter, it's nearly impossible to get it out of carpet, one babygoth girlfriend and my house was covered in glitter for 10 years ... though I still think Ramstein needs to be loud

I look at glitter and it sticks to my face for weeks.

[Brickton]

Hello All

I am glad I followed this post out of curiosity...as I am now a more informed ebay user.

About 4 months ago (before I joined Eurobricks) I purchased the instructions to the town hall and the spanish cafe from Miran0620...not because I was planning to build them...but more because I thought it would be a good way to learn some new building techniques, particularly as I am only newly returned to lego and have so much to learn.

I had no idea they were designs "copied" (or stolen) from someone else and the seller certainly did not tell me they were not his and I did not find any evidence to suggest they were done by others in any of the files I received. I particularly sad about the Town Hall as I met Jamie at a lego convention a few months ago and he was very kind and patient with me as I bombarded him with questions.

I can only imagine what it must be like to see your creativity used for financial gain by someone else and it has certainly opened my eyes to being more careful as to who I buy from in the future.

I will certainly try and pass the word to ensure no one I know gets taken in by these people claiming other's work to be their own.

Sorry for the impact you guys have had...and that I helped him profit from it :(

Regards

[badboytje88]

And without further ado, it is my utmost pleasure to present to you, 2012 most off topic post so far:

That's worse than having your kneecaps broken?

Man, I really hate that guy. I want to get him drunk and have him wander into a gay bar. Those gays will boost his self-esteem, play showtunes for him and cover him with glitter. That'll show him.

[danim]

Hi Hinckley

All I done to contact the guy was go onto the listing of the Wax museum and used the contact seller about this item and sent this message to him

Is it just me or is this a blatent steal of a persons design and trying to make a profit from it as this wax museum was designed by shutinc as can be seen here from his post on the online community eurobricks

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=51963&hl=wax%20museum&st=0

[L@go]

Just to sum this up a bit: The three Spanish modulars in miran0620's eBay store (and the one in smpratte's store) were originally made by Japanese builder and Brickshelf user peachtree. The three slightly Dutch-looking modulars were originally made by Brickshelf user stefauster. Does anybody know how to get in touch with peachtree or stefauster, to tell them about the abuse of their creations?

The one creation that we haven't identified thus far is the train station. It's so imposing that it's hard to believe nobody has noticed it before:

Does anybody have a clue as to who built this?

[alois]

The one creation that we haven't identified thus far is the train station. It's so imposing that it's hard to believe nobody has noticed it before:

Does anybody have a clue as to who built this?

According to Brickshelf, Mark Chan was the builder.

Edited January 8, 2012 by alois

[horizon]

Did any of the builders being 'robbed' file their IP somewhere?

If no one filed the IP on their creation than you can do nothing about it. It is not illegal by law on what they are doing.

Morally seen one could argue about it ofcourse as it isn't a very nice trick to do.

Going to court and persuading a judge you build it first is a long hard expensive road.

[Hinckley]

Did any of the builders being 'robbed' file their IP somewhere?

If no one filed the IP on their creation than you can do nothing about it. It is not illegal by law on what they are doing.

Morally seen one could argue about it ofcourse as it isn't a very nice trick to do.

Going to court and persuading a judge you build it first is a long hard expensive road.

I suppose that is why the thread is titled "Intellectual Property Thief?"

Yes, it was meant more for moral outrage. I doubt every AFOL is going to start paying to have each creation filed as IP somewhere. I'll change the title so we don't get these logical and rational posts in our outrage topic. Has anyone broken any kneecaps yet? (And no, I'm not actually endorsing that. It's called a joke.)

[ER0L]

Does anybody know how to get in touch with peachtree or stefauster, to tell them about the abuse of their creations?

stefauster is a German builder. He is informed about the abuse of his MOCs: http://www.1000steine.de/1000steine/forum2/forum_entry.php?id=237168 I will tell him about this thread (via 1000steine.de, I do not have his e-mail address).

[AndyC]

Yes, it was meant more for moral outrage. I doubt every AFOL is going to start paying to have each creation filed as IP somewhere. I'll change the title so we don't get these logical and rational posts in our outrage topic. Has anyone broken any kneecaps yet? (And no, I'm not actually endorsing that. It's called a joke.)

Strictly speaking it would be a matter of design copyright, which doesn't require you to pay or register anything. I doubt anybody is making sufficient money to warrant an actual court case though, so there is probably very little you can do about it in reality (dhort of having ebay auctions cancelled for selling a digitally delivered item or other ToS violations).

[L@go]

stefauster is a German builder. He is informed about the abuse of his MOCs: http://www.1000steine.de/1000steine/forum2/forum_entry.php?id=237168 I will tell him about this thread (via 1000steine.de, I do not have his e-mail address).

Thank you for that. It appears that he has already been notified about this thread.

For those of you who want to read that post, but don't know German, I can translate it roughly:

He says that he's now got hold of copies of the instructions, that it's interesting to see his own models like that, and that the instructions seem to be well-made. Miran Pris, as the copycat is called, has obviously studied pictures of the models very carefully. But details that are not visible in the pictures, not least the staircases, have been recreated in very strange ways - and he says he's not sure that the corner tower on the café will be buildable at all the way it's designed in the instructions.

He also says - like I have stated before - that he can't just publish these instructions and make them available for everyone (it's a matter of copyright - even though the original creation belongs to stefauster, Miran Pris legally owns the copyrights on his instructions, strange as it may seem) but that he's currently making his own instructions for his buildings. Which seems like a very good counter-measure.

Lastly, he says, "Please don't buy any more instructions from Miran Pris."

I doubt anybody is making sufficient money to warrant an actual court case though...

I don't know how much money would suffice, but in the 1000steine thread somebody's done a quick count of how much money Miran Pris probably has made so far - he's sold 1057 building instructions at 6 Euros a piece. That's 6342 Euros, made from other people's designs. Or a bit more than 8000 US dollars. Not exactly small change, is it?

Edited January 8, 2012 by L@go

[Badsneaker]

Does anyone know what program he uses to make the building instructions? I'd like to try making some of my own.

[Alasdair Ryan]

Does anyone know what program he uses to make the building instructions? I'd like to try making some of my own.

He probably used Mlcad and Lpub. Here is a link to the Mlcad Site.

[peterab]

Did any of the builders being 'robbed' file their IP somewhere?

If no one filed the IP on their creation than you can do nothing about it. It is not illegal by law on what they are doing.

This is particularly misleading advice. As others have stated before in the thread IP is a catchall phrase and doesn't mean anything. You need to file patents, but as I've said before in the thread this wouldn't really be a situation where that was useful. In most countries copyright is automatic, and the artistic work entailed in the design would most likely be covered there.

Edited January 9, 2012 by peterab

[brickcitydepot]

I found another tool that thinks being a thief is fun.

http://kind-baby.marktplaats.nl/speelgoed-duplo-en-lego/542658201-modular-lego-beschrijving-voor-san-francisco-panden-10224.html

gaddo@live.nl is the sellers email address. He is selling some of my instructions against my will on that website. pathetic swine

[L@go]

It's been removed. I'm guessing you filed a complaint?

[Stefano]

I found another tool that thinks being a thief is fun.

http://kind-baby.marktplaats.nl/speelgoed-duplo-en-lego/542658201-modular-lego-beschrijving-voor-san-francisco-panden-10224.html

gaddo@live.nl is the sellers email address. He is selling some of my instructions against my will on that website. pathetic swine

Haha I always thought it was you xD pathetic people, making money on someone else's creations