Is Lego in trouble?

[gylman]

. I bought Gear Grinders, and let me tell you, that small set deserves an 11 out of 10 rating.

Gear grinders http://guide.lugnet.com/set/4883 is a spectacularly fun set. If you have a couple of kids you want to introduce to Lego - this is the set to do it with. I have several copies, and woudl get more if the price was good. This set, and Building Bonanza http://guide.lugnet.com/set/4886, are the best basic building sets TLC has released in recent memory, really back to the basics without being old-fashioned and stale.

I have not see EITHER gear grinders OR building bonanza on store shelves. All I see is ExoFarce and StarWars and a few others. I think TLC needs to push stores to display their Designer lines.

[mutley777]

internet shopping is really the big cullprit here. why bother going to the shops looking for a few sets only to be dissapointed when you can't find them. click on legoshop@home and you have the full catalogue delivered to your door! every set you ever wanted, and old discontinued sets are always picked up of the shelves by ebayers to sell for a little profit. store's just can't compete with the selection you get on the net. some sellers on bricklink and ebay have a better selection than my local lego store! as some one said earlier it all comes down to shop space.

[Lego Amaryl]

Hi!

I live in Italy in a medium city (250000 inhabitants), the situation is not too bad compared to others described above.

There are different little shops and, there is not the complete catalogue and there are less things than 10 years ago... but it's possible to find many themes: SW, Racers, Bionicle, Knight, Vikings, Exo-Force, Designer Set, buckets, some Technic and City (I've found only Firemen and no Construction!).

It depends on the shop, for ex. there is a shop that has a lot of discontinued sets and so it doesn't buy new ones! But it does no reductions, if a set is 39.99 it makes you pay 39.99! In this way it will never get rid of old sets and make new sets available! But I know that in this shop it's possible to order any set in the catalogue (I don't know the times of arrival, but you don't pay any extra in this way).

There is another shop that has few sets, but has often new sets. So it's important that you go when sets are just arrived. And here I've always found almost all Designer Sets in the last years, plus buckets, some City and other themes. And it always does a reduction of 10%.

So I think that if you can find a good set, it's more convenient to buy it in a shop, no extra payments and no time to wait...

The problem is that nowadays sets don't have a good selection of pieces like 10 years ago, so you must use BrickLink and eBay...

[Sting]

In Winnipeg, the only store you can go to without being horribly dissapointed is Toys R Us. It doesn't have HALF the space it used to (Oh... I remember the days of the early to mid 90's... When half of an entire BACK ROW of the store had lego... just massive walls of lego... oh god... I wish I could go back...

Now at my Wal-Mart and Zellers, lego takes up maybe 1 or 2 sections. Whereas Megablocks and other cheap buildings companies have the rest of the aisle.

Whoever was talking about smaller sets selling well is damn correct. When I was a kid I ONLY got sets more than $30.00 or $40.00 on my Birthday or Christmas. Even for good report cards I remember the best I would get is $20.00... and I was good at trying to go higher! Not that I complained, because back than a $20.00 was actually cool.

I think Lego is in trouble... whether people want to admit it or not...

snefroe1 hit the nail on the head. Lego is losing its loyal fanbase. If they don't start making better sets that aren't just fads and trends. And they can't just keep making Star Wars sets (eventually they WILL run out LOL... even if they do all the extended Universe stuff... alot of the non-collector buyers will have no clue what the extended universe stuff is and may not buy it unless it has Luke or Han or Chewie or Darth).

I don't know what Lego can do. I want them to bring back better set design and the general aura of the old lego, but updated with the better minifigs and the new bley (I dont have THAT much old grey so its not terrible for me). I don't think the Pirates line as was would sell very good in todays market besides to people like Phes, us non-Inquisition pirate fans, and a few kids who get it. If they updated and took inspiration from Pirates of the Carribean (they made Johnny Thunder who is a blatant ripoff of Indiana Jones - lets see some crazy dark pirate character!). Same with Castle. The new Knights Kingdom in my opinion is terrible (not as bad as the last 2!!!) but it is at least updated to how kids today want it. Now lets just make it GOOD.

[blueandwhite]

People are reading far too much into this. What you see in your local shops isn't necessarily a reflection of LEGO's financial situation. Afterall, LEGO was actually in the black in 2005, yet I don't remember stock being any better. Simply having huge amounts of shelf space dedicated to LEGO doesn't gaurantee sales, nor does it speak to LEGO's fiscal state.

I would suspect that online sales have had a major impact on retailers like Toys R Us and Walmart. Its far easier for a parent to simply go online and make a purchase for little Timmy, rather then going from store to store simply to find out that the set he's looking for is sold out. Online shopping may be a bit more expensive (shipping and such), but that is easily offset by the time and money one spends searching for a desired set. Heck, LEGO product is usually available online before its readily distributed through retail stores!

Finally, alot of people seem to be moaning about the supposed sub-standard quality of the sets. As far as I'm concerned, set design is probably at an all-time high. Sure, there are a few lines that I can't stand (KKII, Exo-Force), but for every stinker there are two or three fantastic lines. These newer sets frequently use building techniques that would never have been offered to casual builders five or ten years ago. Juniorization is far less rampant than it was a decade earlier (again, excluding the usual suspects), and piece counts seem to be up.

Sure, LEGO is living off licences and franchising, but in this day and age is anyone really surprised? And honestly, most of LEGO's licenced products are pure gold. The Batman, Star Wars and Ferarri sets are far and away some of the best designs we've seen out of LEGO. I can only hope we will see more of this quality in non-licenced themes in years to come (The City line is already reeping such a benefit).

Later.

[The Hordesman]

And I've never seen Megablocks in stores either.

You wont probably ever see it, Lego created a Megabloks-ban in the netherlands some year or so ago, lawsuits and stuff made Megabloks stop exporting Lego to yer homeland.

Indeed, Lego got a smaller section than ever in BR (owner of TRU in europe), I think the Megabloks section is getting bigger. I have yet to see how it is in TRU though.

[Brick Miner]

People are reading far too much into this. What you see in your local shops isn't necessarily a reflection of LEGO's financial situation. Afterall, LEGO was actually in the black in 2005, yet I don't remember stock being any better. Simply having huge amounts of shelf space dedicated to LEGO doesn't gaurantee sales, nor does it speak to LEGO's fiscal state.

i sware no one read my post... it had straight number facts in it for the past 4 years. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS in this situation. THERE IS NO DEBATE !!! LEGO has been loosing money for many years now... so, if it is true (that the stocks were higher than ever) then LEGO must have promised something to the investors... if they can't deliver, the company is in big trouble. LEGO hasn't proven anything in the past couple years, except they loose money. investors will drop out once the company can't meet their promises.

here is a link to anyone is interested in the actually financial state of the LEGO GROUP:

http://www.edinformatics.com/inventions_inventors/lego.htm

- brick miner

[Berry Syedow]

People are reading far too much into this. What you see in your local shops isn't necessarily a reflection of LEGO's financial situation. Afterall, LEGO was actually in the black in 2005, yet I don't remember stock being any better. Simply having huge amounts of shelf space dedicated to LEGO doesn't gaurantee sales, nor does it speak to LEGO's fiscal state.

i sware no one read my post... it had straight number facts in it for the past 4 years. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS in this situation. THERE IS NO DEBATE !!! LEGO has been loosing money for many years now... so, if it is true (that the stocks were higher than ever) then LEGO must have promised something to the investors... if they can't deliver, the company is in big trouble. LEGO hasn't proven anything in the past couple years, except they loose money. investors will drop out once the company can't meet their promises.

here is a link to anyone is interested in the actually financial state of the LEGO GROUP:

http://www.edinformatics.com/inventions_inventors/lego.htm

- brick miner

The thing is, those losses can be associated with bad set design. From what I've heard, the 2005 LEGO Company financial report showed a large profit regarding LEGO sales. Many of the 2006 sets are an improvement from previous set designs as well. Yes, the LEGO Company faced a huge deficit a while back, but what is its relevance? The question proposed is whether the LEGO Company is possibly facing another deficit, not whether they did lose money.

A better question: Why is the miniscule LEGO shelf-space a concern, now? It's been that way for several years if I remember correctly.

[gylman]

Such negativism :-(

You have only posted data up to 2004 financial year. 2005 was a big turnaround. See this thread

http://eurobricks.hosting.ipsyn.com/eurofo...=3951&hl=profit

and NOT just because they sold the parks. And not just because they had one hot line. One of the most interesting pieces of information is that they were gaining market share at a time when the toy market was shrinking in 2005.

TLC has definitely reduced the number of different lines it supports, and the number of sets per line. That's one more possible reason for less shelf space.

Finally, the number of Lego Stores, and outlet stores that specialize in Lego, is growing rapidly. These barely existed 5-10 years ago, and they carry very full lineups. I used to buy my Lego at TRU, but most of my retail purchases now are at a local outlet called "Bricks and Blocks", or at TRU. The prices are better at B&B, and hassle much less at S@H.

I don't think there is an overwhelming reason for TLC to be obsessed with tons of shelf space in the discount stores and low-end retailers like WalMart and Kmart. It is useful to have some visibility of course, but profits come when you sell your products at a profit. (DUH) WalMart (and similar sellers) gouge their suppliers so that their profit margin is very small, and I think that TLC is better off not lowering their quality and standards in order to be able to sell in Walmart.

[Brick Miner]

ah, i had not read the 2006 reports yet... excuse me its still early in 2006 !!! for the past couple of years i have been reading that lego sales were headed no where, as with the company.

however, i still have an overwhelming fear that lego is not going anywhere. one year of prosper is only a start, after years and years of losses.

i guess the argument is over in the other direction, right ??? i mean we have proof (per the post by gylman) LEGO is doing well as of 2005 !!!

great news !!! and thanks for the info - brick miner

[Hobbes]

Afterall, LEGO was actually in the black in 2005, yet I don't remember stock being any better.

Careful: They made profits in 2005, that doesn't mean they were black, though. Public financial reports reflect one (financial) year, rarely the entire financial situation. So, if TLC says the made profits again, they mean they had more "income" in one year than expenses. I doubt they have fully recovered from their losses they had cumulated over the past. Doesn't mean it won't happen, though...

[hewkii9]

Right, I just wish a Lego store would be opened in Ontario. Licensing lines bring in more customers; someone here said that more SW fans buy SW then Lego fans, and we all know how many SW fans there are. And Lego is not losing it's touch, Phes. Just because there's no Pirates doesn't mean Lego will crumble into ruin.

[gylman]

There should be a big fat Lego store in the Eaton's Centre in downtown Toronto.

What we have now in Ontario are the three outlet stores, Bricks and Blocks, which are basically equivalent ot a Lego store except that they don't have any gear, just sets. They even give offer Lego birthday parties. But, it's a pain to drive out to Cookstown, or Waterloo, or Windsor .... so I would be happier to get a real Lego store here.

[blueandwhite]

There should be a big fat Lego store in the Eaton's Centre in downtown Toronto.

What we have now in Ontario are the three outlet stores, Bricks and Blocks, which are basically equivalent ot a Lego store except that they don't have any gear, just sets. They even give offer Lego birthday parties. But, it's a pain to drive out to Cookstown, or Waterloo, or Windsor .... so I would be happier to get a real Lego store here.

Honestly, Vaughn Mills would be a perfect location. Being the biggest outlet mall in Ontario, it only makes sense that if LEGO were to bring a LEGO outlet into Canada, it would start there. And more to the point, it would be the first genuine LEGO store in a major community centre (the three Bricks & Blocks stores are too remote for most Toronto shoppers).

Still, Bricks & Blocks is better than nothing.

Later.

[snefroe]

it would be nice to have a lego store in flanders as well. belgians spend lots on toys including lego and it seems the small belug community has good contacts with lego belgium. but it's not going to happen... they once decided that the lego store network would be more for the Us market than for us europeans.

i think the financial situation is this: they built up huge losses untill 2005, by spending waaaaay too much money, thinking sales of sw would make it right. by 2004 the situation was very bad , so they changed strategies and policies, in the mean time also replacing several board members. 2005-2006 would be a turning point. they cut costs seriously, sold most of the shares of the legoland parks, relocated plants,... Because of all that, 2005 was a first good step, the sold well in a shrinking toys market and they got some extra money because of the sales from parks,... that lead to a fair result in 2005. 2006 would be the year of consolidation, the year with no extra income, only sales of products, in a still shrinking market. so 2006 is a pretty tough year to deal with for the company, but if it works, it'll be a milestone. especially the success of exo force is more than just a minor event, it could really be the difference between the start for a new future for the company or yet another few very difficult years...

[phoinix]

where do you think that lego should invest to make a good profit on sales?what series of products is the one that can bring on the most changes and the biggest ecxpanssion? :-|

We know for a fact that SW has done great over these 6 years *vader* we also know that there license is ecxpanded up to 2011..was that a good move for the company?Do you think that they will find enough ideas to sell?

to my point of view SW was a great move for 1999 but i dont think ecxpanding the lisence is such a good idea..the films are all out and there is not another one to wait for.

I think SW sells more to sw fans than to lego fans...(but thats good for TLG as long as it does well) *yoda*

my opinion is that lego should stop basing their sales on films cartoons and other lisences!they are going to run out of ideas sooner or later...and if i wanted to make batman i would have made it my self...this is LEGO people!lets make our own stuff! (thow i loved the batman and may even buy a couple of sets)

where is the companys imagination?? >:-(

have they run out of ideas of there own? 8-|

cant TLG make a line of products to sell as good as SW?? |-/

and that brings me back to my first question...where do u think lego should invest?

many people have talked about bringing back the pirates?

what other ideas do u have?

i personally would love to see an ancient greece theme *wub* with the gods and classic buldings like parhtenon

i would also love more city products..(im getting sick of all the police stuff!! how many criminals are there in lego-city anyways??? *wacko* *wacko* )

:-) phoinix

[gylman]

There should be a big fat Lego store in the Eaton's Centre in downtown Toronto.

What we have now in Ontario are the three outlet stores, Bricks and Blocks, which are basically equivalent ot a Lego store except that they don't have any gear, just sets. They even give offer Lego birthday parties. But, it's a pain to drive out to Cookstown, or Waterloo, or Windsor .... so I would be happier to get a real Lego store here.

Honestly, Vaughn Mills would be a perfect location. Being the biggest outlet mall in Ontario, it only makes sense that if LEGO were to bring a LEGO outlet into Canada, it would start there. And more to the point, it would be the first genuine LEGO store in a major community centre (the three Bricks & Blocks stores are too remote for most Toronto shoppers).

Still, Bricks & Blocks is better than nothing.

Later.

Highly local comment, but I think Vaughn Mills is too close to Cookstown. One could argue that Ottawa is a better place, close to both Montreal and filling a void in that part of Ontario.

I am sure our musings are of high interest to other EB members.... NOT. :-)

[blueandwhite]

Highly local comment, but I think Vaughn Mills is too close to Cookstown. One could argue that Ottawa is a better place, close to both Montreal and filling a void in that part of Ontario.

I am sure our musings are of high interest to other EB members.... NOT. :-)

Too true. Our little banter is certainly off topic. Still, I think that the GTA is probably the biggest market in Canada, and it has been my experience that most GTAers simply won't leave the city. Ottawa is big, but nowhere near Toronto in size.

[snefroe]

it would be nice to have a lego store in flanders as well. belgians spend lots on toys including lego and it seems the small belug community has good contacts with lego belgium. but it's not going to happen... they once decided that the lego store network would be more for the Us market than for us europeans.

i think the financial situation is this: they built up huge losses untill 2005, by spending waaaaay too much money, thinking sales of sw would make it right. by 2004 the situation was very bad , so they changed strategies and policies, in the mean time also replacing several board members. 2005-2006 would be a turning point. they cut costs seriously, sold most of the shares of the legoland parks, relocated plants,... Because of all that, 2005 was a first good step, the sold well in a shrinking toys market and they got some extra money because of the sales from parks,... that lead to a fair result in 2005. 2006 would be the year of consolidation, the year with no extra income, only sales of products, in a still shrinking market. so 2006 is a pretty tough year to deal with for the company, but if it works, it'll be a milestone. especially the success of exo force is more than just a minor event, it could really be the difference between the start for a new future for the company or yet another few very difficult years...

well i guess there's a risk of diminishing sales for the sw lines in later years. many fans get too old to collect of loose interest, whatever. but it's probably also an attempt to keep the license out of the hands of megablocks and others.

for now, the most likely long term success, non licensed theme is city, as long as they don't start with yet another police, fire, constructions and hospital subtheme in the near future. i think many people would be disappointed if they'd start all over again in 2007...

i don't understand why they've stopped producing vikings. that sold pretty well, every one says, so why only two sets this year? i think tey could haven hang on for another year or two...

[Mithrandir]

Well I live in Buffalo, NY, and the closest lego stores I can find are 2 hours away in Toronto. I'm not driving to Toronto for Lego :P

On a side note, I bought a bunch of small sets over the weekend from TRU, and they charged above retail for them... what the heck?

7016-1: Viking Boat vs. Wyvern Dragon: retail $10, TRU charged $12.53

8666-1: TunerX: retail $4, TRU $4.50

8661-1: Carbon Star: retail $4, TRU $4.50

8664-1: Road Hero: retail $4, TRU $4.50 (I highly reccomend this set, by the way)

8663-1: Fat Trax: retail $4, TRU $4.50

8667-1: Action Wheelie: retail $10, TRU $11.43

8668-1: Fly Wheel Side Rider: retail $10, TRU $12.53

I didn't notice until I got home, but wtf?

[SuvieD]

On a side note, I bought a bunch of small sets over the weekend from TRU, and they charged above retail for them... what the heck?

TRU is in trouble. They think that raising prices they can save themselves when infact they are putting the last of the nails in their own coffin. Hopefully they will get a clue but most likely not.

LEGO is not in all that much trouble. They are not as successful as they would like obviously but measures have been taken and things are being done properly for the most part. Insufficient production and good sales caused shortages mostly. LEGO is also not sitting on stock as they once did which in many respects is good. 2006 should prove to be an even better year and I think it will be Exo Force that dominates. Showing to everyone that LEGO can design a new theme and it can do well.

I just hope it brings in enough money to push them into making some other new sets. I would really like to see a Swiss Family Robinson type series with a pirate mix. Sort of a stranded boat crew on an island that is home to a hidden pirate treasure and/or a group of canibal natives. They live in a tree house eating coconuts and fish. Everything seems fine until a pirate ship shows up on the horizon. Will a ship come to rescue them from the island? Will they pirates see them and come ashore on unfriendly terms? Will those mysterious drums in the night spell their doom? Can they find the pirates treasure and escape it all before the end? It's your imagination, you decide! ;-)

I can dream right? :'-) By the way any LEGO designer or employee can feel free to use my ideas in part or whole and claim full rights to them. You have my expressed consent to take my ideas.

[Mithrandir]

I just hope it brings in enough money to push them into making some other new sets. I would really like to see a Swiss Family Robinson type series with a pirate mix. Sort of a stranded boat crew on an island that is home to a hidden pirate treasure and/or a group of canibal natives. They live in a tree house eating coconuts and fish. Everything seems fine until a pirate ship shows up on the horizon. Will a ship come to rescue them from the island? Will they pirates see them and come ashore on unfriendly terms? Will those mysterious drums in the night spell their doom? Can they find the pirates treasure and escape it all before the end? It's your imagination, you decide! ;-)

I can dream right? :'-) By the way any LEGO designer or employee can feel free to use my ideas in part or whole and claim full rights to them. You have my expressed consent to take my ideas.

I keep wishing/praying/hoping that they'll make a Pirates of the Caribbean line. It would be perfect; they already have most of the needed molds for pirate stuff; it fits in with their liscencing trend, and the movies are marketed towards Lego's core audience anyways!

Plus they'll get at least two years out of it, if they start RIGHT THIS MINUTE.

There's one movie due this year, and then another next year too.

*sigh*

I know it'll never happen :(

But imagine; a Black Pearl and Interceptor model... *sigh*

[Sting]

I just hope it brings in enough money to push them into making some other new sets. I would really like to see a Swiss Family Robinson type series with a pirate mix. Sort of a stranded boat crew on an island that is home to a hidden pirate treasure and/or a group of canibal natives. They live in a tree house eating coconuts and fish. Everything seems fine until a pirate ship shows up on the horizon. Will a ship come to rescue them from the island? Will they pirates see them and come ashore on unfriendly terms? Will those mysterious drums in the night spell their doom? Can they find the pirates treasure and escape it all before the end? It's your imagination, you decide! ;-)

I can dream right? :'-) By the way any LEGO designer or employee can feel free to use my ideas in part or whole and claim full rights to them. You have my expressed consent to take my ideas.

I keep wishing/praying/hoping that they'll make a Pirates of the Caribbean line. It would be perfect; they already have most of the needed molds for pirate stuff; it fits in with their liscencing trend, and the movies are marketed towards Lego's core audience anyways!

Plus they'll get at least two years out of it, if they start RIGHT THIS MINUTE.

There's one movie due this year, and then another next year too.

*sigh*

I know it'll never happen :(

But imagine; a Black Pearl and Interceptor model... *sigh*

Yup. me and my friends discussed this. There would definately be The Black Pearl, The Intercepter, probably no Dauntless (it just isn't in the movie enough and the kids will already have the massive Black Pearl), there would be Jack Sparrows sinking boat (the one he arrives at Port Royal in) and probably the cave battle scene, and maybe the jail... there could definately be more.

Unfortunately I remember reading somewhere that Megablocks got the POTC Liscence... sorry to be the bearer of horrifyingly bad news...

[john cleese]

I would really like to see a Swiss Family Robinson type series with a pirate mix. Sort of a stranded boat crew on an island that is home to a hidden pirate treasure and/or a group of canibal natives. They live in a tree house eating coconuts and fish. Everything seems fine until a pirate ship shows up on the horizon. Will a ship come to rescue them from the island? Will they pirates see them and come ashore on unfriendly terms? Will those mysterious drums in the night spell their doom? Can they find the pirates treasure and escape it all before the end? It's your imagination, you decide! ;-)

I can dream right? :'-) By the way any LEGO designer or employee can feel free to use my ideas in part or whole and claim full rights to them. You have my expressed consent to take my ideas.

as a time twister/ time cruisers fan i really like that kind of weird stuff. However i wouldnt expect it would sell any better than those themes.

I dont actually think theres a problem with the themes. Its set design which is killing lego, they just need to start making better sets. For example when i counted all the plates in the knights wall set, i only came up with three! There were only three plates in the whole friggen thing! The castle of morcia had only 72, which is really sad for a 600 peice set. In my humble opinion, i just dont think the new design team can design a decent building and even though they are using lots of great new building techniques in the space themed sets, they are still lacking in design. I hate to say it but the new designers just dont have the spirit of the designers of 1996 or 1997 (which were good years for lego with benchmark sets, like the twisted time train and the Mystic mountain time lab, which ar possibly the best sets ever made. X-D )

[blueandwhite]

I hate to say it but the new designers just dont have the spirit of the designers of 1996 or 1997 (which were good years for lego with benchmark sets, like the twisted time train and the Mystic mountain time lab, which ar possibly the best sets ever made. X-D )

"Benchmark" is a matter of opinion. For me, Time Twisters and Fright Knights were probably two of LEGO's all-time worst lines. (Of course, I'm not sure if your being sarcastic with your comments as the laugh icon is somewhat ambiguous)

Personally, I love many of the current set designs we are getting. Its just too bad that these designs don't spill over to some of LEGO's original properties like KKII. Comparing Star Wars to KKII is utterly depressing.

Later.