VOTING THREAD: Week Seven counters vs Week Six Guerrillas:

[SkaForHire]

(Thanks to Garmadon again for this thread)

Week Seven counters vs Week Six Guerrillas:

VOTING: Anyone can vote!

Voting closes April 22th

Which side won? Which was the best counter build?

Judging criteria: This is a straight one versus one contest. The challenger versus the best (in your opinion) counter build (if there are multiple counter builds). So judge solely on Challenger versus best counter build. Remember, story should play a bit into your judging criteria. Also, a counter must effectively undo the guerrilla attack. Even if the Counter MOC is better, if you don't think it successfully undoes the guerrilla attack, you should probably vote for the guerrilla attack.

Thank you!

Zone: H13

Challenger: Hammerhand

Counter:

Kai NRG

Zone: A4

Challenger: LordDan

Counter Adair:

Zone: J16 + J16

Challengers: Garmadon and Kai NRG

What Faction can counter: High council

No counter? Ulandus wins by default.

Zone: E2 +

Challengers: Jacob Nion

Counter: Bregir

and Zone E2, Disco86

Counter: Jakorin Swiftsword

And Robuko at M15: No counter? DK wins? (Correction M15 was a two week counter because of its distance from the battlefront)

so don't post without a topic after making a poll, because it erases the poll... doh.

Edited April 17, 2015 by SkaForHire

[Garmadon]

Sorry for the confusion, I meant that robuko's guerrilla is actually a leftover for this week, since it is deep in enemy territory (I had missed it in the week seven guerrilla list, not in this one)

[Graham Gidman]

As always, these are not easy to vote for... Keep up the good work guys!

[LordDan]

Ska technically my build was not deep in enemy territory and therefore should have had only one week to be countered, which would have ended the 12th. Adair's counter was built on the 15th. However since the Adair already built a counter And the issue was never clarified I guess we should just keep it how it is?

Edited April 16, 2015 by LordDan

[Bregir]

Hmm, I must say, I am somewhat disappointed about the performance of my build... :/

While Jacob's is probably the best build, that is not what the guerilla system is about. I mean, we are voting for who won the guerilla/counter guerilla, not which build is the best. We are voting for effects and idea, rather than aesthetics...

Well, at least that's my view on it. Otherwise, I think the guerilla system is somewhat broken.

I really think I effectively countered the siege tower, rendering it useless against Eastgate. And I think I did it with a fairly good build on top of that.

It may just be me who misunderstand this, so I would like to hear some thoughts from the rest of you.

(And in any case, no hard feelings :) )

[Dr.Cogg]

I think the build also has to be considered and Jacob's attack wasn't just a siege tower, but also Rat Men who can probably climb walls easily and a giant Rhino that might be able to go through the wall.

I hope that answer helps.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Dr.Cogg

[Garmadon]

Ska technically my build was not deep in enemy territory and therefore should have had only one week to be countered, which would have ended the 12th. Adair's counter was built on the 15th. However since the Adair already built a counter And the issue was never clarified I guess we should just keep it how it is?

I added it to the poll because I had (accidentally) put in the guerrilla thread that they had two weeks to counter, and as it was not corrected until a day or two ago and Adair's build was posted almost right afterwards, I gave them the benefit of the doubt (that they would have countered it last week had they known) and let it slide. So basically yes, it is here because of the confusion caused by whether your build had a two or one week counter time. If Ska disagrees he could take it out, but otherwise (at least if you're okay with it) it will probably stay as it is

[robuko]

Hmm, I must say, I am somewhat disappointed about the performance of my build... :/

While Jacob's is probably the best build, that is not what the guerilla system is about. I mean, we are voting for who won the guerilla/counter guerilla, not which build is the best. We are voting for effects and idea, rather than aesthetics...

Well, at least that's my view on it. Otherwise, I think the guerilla system is somewhat broken.

I really think I effectively countered the siege tower, rendering it useless against Eastgate. And I think I did it with a fairly good build on top of that.

It may just be me who misunderstand this, so I would like to hear some thoughts from the rest of you.

(And in any case, no hard feelings :) )

I can understand what you mean Bregir. Maxim had a similar situation with Disco's attack on Everlast. My feeling is that most people do vote for the nicest looking build but a substantial minority vote for the most effective.

And. .. rhinos are awesome. Jacob had a rhino.

Edited April 16, 2015 by robuko

[SkaForHire]

I think the build also has to be considered and Jacob's attack wasn't just a siege tower, but also Rat Men who can probably climb walls easily and a giant Rhino that might be able to go through the wall.

I hope that answer helps.

I would just like to say, no giant rhino would get through the real walls of Eastgate. they are 16 studs thick in most places. (Hopefully I will get to finish the Eastgate build I started before the prelude builds, it is a whole City block (well two sides of a T formation in the road,) and the walls are a prevalent part of it.) I just bought a TON of white to finish it too.

As for the LordDan build -- I understand what happened there, I didn't catch it myself either. We are kind of in the middle of me letting others take some of the responsibility for the first time, and it took a week for Garm, ME, and I to get on the same page. With that in mind, someone on HC probably should have noted the GA since it was posted on the main thread... If LordDan is OK with the challenge, I would still like to let it go forward -- However, for personal points, I think he should automatically get the amount he would get for winning, even if his build loses.

[Adair]

I voted for you Bregir!

A lot of good builds here, and it's interesting to note that all of them were by the Desert King!

And I had no idea I had such little amount of time!

[Blufiji]

Hmm, I must say, I am somewhat disappointed about the performance of my build... :/

While Jacob's is probably the best build, that is not what the guerilla system is about. I mean, we are voting for who won the guerilla/counter guerilla, not which build is the best. We are voting for effects and idea, rather than aesthetics...

Well, at least that's my view on it. Otherwise, I think the guerilla system is somewhat broken.

I really think I effectively countered the siege tower, rendering it useless against Eastgate. And I think I did it with a fairly good build on top of that.

It may just be me who misunderstand this, so I would like to hear some thoughts from the rest of you.

(And in any case, no hard feelings :) )

Even though Jacob is my teammate, I had to vote for yours. That ditch would stop the siege tower in it's tracks and would slow the rhino down long enough to be killed by the defenders, if we are going by real military strategy.

[Jacob Nion]

Even though Jacob is my teammate, I had to vote for yours. That ditch would stop the siege tower in it's tracks and would slow the rhino down long enough to be killed by the defenders, if we are going by real military strategy.

If it's about realism, than I would not just throw my rhino and tower against the walls. First step of such a siege would be to fill the trench and build coverings for archers and infantry. That's how sieges work. Ditches are no guarantee for successful defense, so teaches us history. Though I voted for Bregir, too, I find it hard to tell if some counters are successful or not. As I tried to show, and the comments here show, it's pretty up to the imagination of the voters.

And I guess that's the whole 'who won' question in a nut shell. Even if a counter could be successful against the GA, that does not mean that it has to. It's up to the people who vote. Therefore Ska makes these polls.

And I know, Eastgate is a gorgeous and old city and it would bother people who created the lore behind it, if a single siege tower or whatever would be enough to sack the whole city. But this is a game, and we have to make compromises between storytelling and gameplay. If a city is so strong that not a million soldiers could sack it, it shouldn't be on the warmap. Or at least off limits for guerilla attacks and decleared as warzone from the very beginning. Or there could have been special conditions. For example there has to be at least a dozen siege engines to attack the city. Believe me, I would have built them If required.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Jacob Nion

[marcu22]

I got Bregir's point, but I just want to add some of my thoughts...no offense but in my eyes, every counter is somehow effectiv and turn's the attacker loosing. If just decide by the point of effectivty no GA could win. My vote depends on the idea and the Story, but also on presentation,creativity and of course the look.

Beside my view you will have to arrange with votes from 'visitors', which haven't read all hundreds of GA's and CG's ;)...

[LordDan]

Even though Jacob is my teammate, I had to vote for yours. That ditch would stop the siege tower in it's tracks and would slow the rhino down long enough to be killed by the defenders, if we are going by real military strategy.

Not totally true. First we would knock over the seige tower and use it as a bridge for the rhino and rats. The Reno would break through this section of the wall, which is not 16 studs thick, af the rats would pillage the city :)

[robuko]

A lot of good builds here, and it's interesting to note that all of them were by the Desert King!

...except the 2 unchallenged Ulandus builds against the HC...

[Blufiji]

If it's about realism, than I would not just throw my rhino and tower against the walls. First step of such a siege would be to fill the trench and build coverings for archers and infantry. That's how sieges work. Ditches are no guarantee for successful defense, so teaches us history. Though I voted for Bregir, too, I find it hard to tell if some counters are successful or not. As I tried to show, and the comments here show, it's pretty up to the imagination of the voters.

And I guess that's the whole 'who won' question in a nut shell. Even if a counter could be successful against the GA, that does not mean that it has to. It's up to the people who vote. Therefore Ska makes these polls.

And I know, Eastgate is a gorgeous and old city and it would bother people who created the lore behind it, if a single siege tower or whatever would be enough to sack the whole city. But this is a game, and we have to make compromises between storytelling and gameplay. If a city is so strong that not a million soldiers could sack it, it shouldn't be on the warmap. Or at least off limits for guerilla attacks and decleared as warzone from the very beginning. Or there could have been special conditions. For example there has to be at least a dozen siege engines to attack the city. Believe me, I would have built them If required.

My counter argument just for gameplay's sake. It's gonna take time to stop, drop the siege tower and cross that ditch or build defenses. Then who protects the rhino from being pelted by defensive fire? I will give you the advantage that your soldiers are rats, and if they are as light on their feet as real rats. But I do think you would loose a lot of attackers and a lot of rhinos against that wall.

Not totally true. First we would knock over the seige tower and use it as a bridge for the rhino and rats. The Reno would break through this section of the wall, which is not 16 studs thick, af the rats would pillage the city :)

Aee argument above and again it's just for the sake of debating.

[Jacob Nion]

My counter argument just for gameplay's sake. It's gonna take time to stop, drop the siege tower and cross that ditch or build defenses. Then who protects The rhino from being pelted by defensive fire? I will give you the advantage that your soldiers are rats, and if they are as light on their feet as real rats. But I do think you would loose a lot of attackers and a lot of rhinos against that wall.

Aee argument above and again it's just for the sake of debating.

Then you leave me no choice but to come up with the all time favourite killer argument back from kindergarten and elementary: my figures are super fast, can fly and are always stronger than yours

Edited April 17, 2015 by Jacob Nion

[Blufiji]

Then you leave me no choice but to come up with the all time favourite killer argument back from kindergarten and elementary: my figures are super fast, can fly and are always stronger than yours

Auto win lol

[SkaForHire]

And I know, Eastgate is a gorgeous and old city and it would bother people who created the lore behind it, if a single siege tower or whatever would be enough to sack the whole city. But this is a game, and we have to make compromises between storytelling and gameplay. If a city is so strong that not a million soldiers could sack it, it shouldn't be on the warmap. Or at least off limits for guerilla attacks and decleared as warzone from the very beginning. Or there could have been special conditions. For example there has to be at least a dozen siege engines to attack the city. Believe me, I would have built them If required.

Not sure if this was pointed at my comment or not, but I was just kidding around and being boastful about my city's defenses (As I said, I have a half finished MOC with the walls partially built). Clearly this is a super large, super strong rhino, and anything is possible!

Before Kaliphlin took over my table: Wip of Eastgate battlefield by skaforhire, on Flickr

[Jacob Nion]

I just start getting used to your humour

Well I realized you were kidding, but I had also in mind the discussion in cat c thread.

I'm surprised that nobody came up with the most simple yet for me most frightening counter idea: just build higher walls and make the siegetower useless

[Spader]

Wow! These were all quite good builds!

[robuko]

Congratulations to the winning builds. Hammerhand's build was actually on J13.