Unimog 8110: Usage in Truck Trials

[PerryMakes]

I was all geared up, wallet in hand, ready for this weekend to hit so I could grab a couple of Unimogs for truck trial builds. The new axle parts looked cool, but I was really excited about the tires. I've had the 8421 for a while now - I just those tires - if only they were larger. The 8110 had the opportunity to make that happen ... BUT ... a few hours before heading out to hand over four big ones to TLG, I came across a thread that mentioned the 'mog tires were complete garbage for TrTr. After phoning a buddy that works at a LEGO store in the mall, I found out that the 8110 tires are made out of the same plasticky "rubber" that we've been seeing for the past few years. After thinking about it for a second I realized that this wasn't really all that surprising - it's been some time now since we've seen LEGO tires made from a material that could honestly be considered "quality" material.

What are your thoughts and experience with this set for TrTr use? How do you feel about LEGO making major changes to the product - sacrificing quality for the purpose of cutting their cost?

[DLuders]

I think that the quality of the rubber used in the new 92912 "Tire 94.3 x 38 R" is just fine. I am holding them in my hands now, and don't think that there are any problems with their quality.

On this Eurobricks post, there are details of how one can order JUST THE TIRES from Lego Direct (Lego Customer Service). You don't have to buy an entire 8110 Unimog U400 set just to obtain them. You should get four of the tires and try them out.

I can see that, for Truck Trials, the relatively-smooth TREAD PATTERN of the tire may not be as good in loose dirt as the 54120 "Tire 94.8 x 44 R Balloon":

From this TechnicBRICKS article, one can see the 92912's tread, and a side-by-side comparison with the 32298 "Tire Technic Power Puller" tire (which is the first tire in the group of four below):

[PerryMakes]

I think that the quality of the rubber used in the new 92912 "Tire 94.3 x 38 R" is just fine.

@DLuders - are you able to compare the quality to that of the wheels from 8421 (or a handful of other sets with 32019 circa 2005)? The quality of material used in those wheels is night and day difference from what's been shipping in the last several years. The newer material feels like there is much less rubber and more plastic in the wheel. If you were to take the wheels from 8421 and anything recent - slide them on a smooth surface by pushing with your hand - the 8421 wheels would grip like you would want a wheel to in a Truck Trial. The newer plasticky material would slip and slide six ways from Sunday.

A HUGE difference between those two wheels. And we're not talking about size here. We're talking about cost. The same way LEGO got rid of metal from the vastly superior 9V Train system to cut cost, they have reduced the amount of rubber needed to produce wheels.

Edited September 19, 2011 by PerryMakes

[Blakbird]

@DLuders - are you able to compare the quality to that of the wheels from 8421 (or a handful of other sets with 32019 circa 2005)? The quality of material used in those wheels is night and day difference from what's been shipping in the last several years. The newer material feels like there is much less rubber and more plastic in the wheel. If you were to take the wheels from 8421 and anything recent - slide them on a smooth surface by pushing with your hand - the 8421 wheels would grip like you would want a wheel to in a Truck Trial. The newer plasticky material would slip and slide six ways from Sunday.

A HUGE difference between those two wheels. And we're not talking about size here. We're talking about cost. The same way LEGO got rid of metal from the vastly superior 9V Train system to cut cost, they have reduced the amount of rubber needed to produce wheels.

Whether the tire is made principally from what you're calling "plastic" or "rubber" is not a reflection on its quality. They are simply different materials, each with their advantages and disadvantages. I think it is unfair to say that LEGO has reduced their quality. There have been many changes in tire material over the years.

Is ABS cheaper than rubber? I think it actually costs more. I don't know what polymer they use in the current tires, but it is neither.

That being said, the 8110 tires are certainly made from a different material than the 8466 Power Puller tires. The former seem more like "plastic" (though very elastic) and the latter more like "rubber". This will indeed result in differences in friction coefficient. However, for Truck Trials the friction coefficient is not very important because they are mostly not conducted on hard surfaces. What is more important is the tread pattern. I don't think you'll find the 8110 tires any less capable in a TT than the 8421 tires. Knobby is probably better though.

[PerryMakes]

Whether the tire is made principally from what you're calling "plastic" or "rubber" is not a reflection on its quality. They are simply different materials, each with their advantages and disadvantages. I think it is unfair to say that LEGO has reduced their quality. There have been many changes in tire material over the years.

Is ABS cheaper than rubber? I think it actually costs more. I don't know what polymer they use in the current tires, but it is neither.

That being said, the 8110 tires are certainly made from a different material than the 8466 Power Puller tires. The former seem more like "plastic" (though very elastic) and the latter more like "rubber". This will indeed result in differences in friction coefficient. However, for Truck Trials the friction coefficient is not very important because they are mostly not conducted on hard surfaces. What is more important is the tread pattern. I don't think you'll find the 8110 tires any less capable in a TT than the 8421 tires. Knobby is probably better though.

Thank you very much for responding Eric. Out of anyone in the entire LEGOsphere, you'd be the man who knew best - and probably the best to field this question: this material that I see the 8421 wheels made from ... would you mind taking a guess at when it started being used, what Technic sets it may be found in, and when it was replaced with what we see now? I thank you kindly

Quality is a fascinating concept... if anyone has yet to read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" I'd HIGHLY recommend it.

I would, however, love to hear some real world examples from some folks that are out there participating in Truck Trials on a regular basis. Do you find the friction coefficient less important than tread pattern?

[allanp]

It depends on the surface. For outdoor trail trucking the tread pattern is much more important. That being said, I feel the grooves in the tread pattern in the unimog tyres are not wide or deep enough really. I would go with a balloon tyre, the power puller wheels are best I think. Happily the new gear hubs in the unimog fit perfectly inside those wheels, meaning you can have a very strong and robust way of having a 1:3 final gear reduction at the wheel (seeing as an 8t and 24t gear will fit inside the hub). So for me it's those hubs that make the unimog great for trial trucks.

[Blakbird]

Thank you very much for responding Eric. Out of anyone in the entire LEGOsphere, you'd be the man who knew best - and probably the best to field this question: this material that I see the 8421 wheels made from ... would you mind taking a guess at when it started being used, what Technic sets it may be found in, and when it was replaced with what we see now? I thank you kindly

I can try to remember to look into this when I get home. Off the top of my head, the early "Expert Builder" years the tires were all hard plastic and hardly elastic at all. Clearly not rubber. The exceptions were the big tires from the auto chassis which were a type of foam. They actually have very high friction coefficients and are still used by some TT'ers. From 1977-1985 this was all there was. In 1986 we got the Model Team tires, but they were also very hard. It wasn't until 1991 that we got the first rubber motorcycle tire, followed by rudder balloon tires and the 8880 tire in 1993-1994. The rubber material seemed to stay pretty much the same through the Power Puller and F1 (8458) years. Only in the last 5-8 years have we seen the harder material. Not every set uses the same material though. For example, the larger tires from the Nitro Muscle set are rubber in the rear and the harder plastic in the front.

Quality is a fascinating concept... if anyone has yet to read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" I'd HIGHLY recommend it.

Fascinating indeed. In fact, the whole concept of the struggle between form and function is very nicely summarized by LEGO Technic. In the early years of Technic, function was clearly the point. The first Auto Chassis didn't even have a body. For most adult Technic fans, function is still the point and why we buy sets. An we want to be able to SEE the function. Only in recent years has the form started to catch up and, in some cases, overshadow the function in Technic sets. I see the Roboriders and later Bionicle as a case in point. Minimal function. Mindstorms would probably be the opposite.

[DLuders]

@ PerryMakes: Why don't you surround the hard 8110 tires with rings of the 3873 "Technic, Link Treads", placed upside-down? That way, you have good traction on loose soil....

[PerryMakes]

@ PerryMakes: Why don't you surround the hard 8110 tires with rings of the 3873 "Technic, Link Treads", placed upside-down? That way, you have good traction on loose soil....

Or Snow!! I think you might be on to something here

[Darth Dino]

Hi

let me add some information why some of you think the tire quality had changed.

I am working for a microscope manufacturer and we use rubber cap in front of the eyepieces. But it is nerverneverever just rubber, it is always also plastic, just like Lego tires. Plastic needs softener to be rubberlike, and some softeners are now not in use anymore for parts where you get in close contact, just like rubbercaps and Lego tires.

If you leave the softener it feels harder and more plsstic like, BUT it might be much healthier for you and your kids.

Dino

Edited September 19, 2011 by Darth Dino

[PerryMakes]

Not too sure how part identification requests are handled on EB... so rather than start a new thread and since we're on the topic of wheels, I figured I'd ask about a part that's been bothering me for quite a while now. These were included with a bunch of technic gears I pulled off eBay. I'm fairly certain it's not LEGO, but there's bound to be someone reading this that's much more qualified to make that call. What do you think?

[nielsvdv]

Not too sure how part identification requests are handled on EB... so rather than start a new thread and since we're on the topic of wheels, I figured I'd ask about a part that's been bothering me for quite a while now. These were included with a bunch of technic gears I pulled off eBay. I'm fairly certain it's not LEGO, but there's bound to be someone reading this that's much more qualified to make that call. What do you think?

that is a knex wheel, had a set with it when i was a kid.. i was mad because it wasn't lego

poor granny

[Badger]

that is a knex wheel, had a set with it when i was a kid.. i was mad because it wasn't lego

poor granny

Agreed !

[AndyC]

that is a knex wheel, had a set with it when i was a kid.. i was mad because it wasn't lego

poor granny

Hehe, I actually got one of these the other day in a bunch of random "Lego" from eBay. I also figured it probably wasn't a Lego piece but now I know what it is. Thanks.

[davidmull]

Would it be possible to use 8110 for trial truck if u removed all weight as in rear crane and bed and other stuff too,or would it be to heavy?

[efferman]

with all the diffs and this turning circle? build better a new chassis and mount the cab and platform on it.

[Dutch_EE]

Maybe it could work if the rear axle would turn as well. Plus the removal of the front and rear axle diffs. (The center diff could be build such that it can lock)

[PerryMakes]

I've got a feeling that Truck Trial builds are way way way different than the way LEGO has been teaching us to build cars and trucks! Where do you guys keep your knowledge base? You know ... all the tips and tricks and shortcuts that can save us several years of making the same mistakes that have already been made? So we can learn nothing, yet still leave a trail of weeping competitors in our path?? What? It doesn't exist? We've gotta do the work? I guess so... ()

Edited September 21, 2011 by PerryMakes

[DLuders]

Where do you guys keep your knowledge base? You know ... all the tips and tricks and shortcuts that can save us several years of making the same mistakes that have already been made?

Some of the "Knowledge Base" is right in the Eurobricks Technic Index thread, where there is "Reference Material" containing Zblj's 7-part "Truck Trial Tips":

#1 (Speed Matters)

#2 (Wheels)

#3 (Chassis and Suspension)

#4 (Powering Steered Wheels)

#5 (Motors and Gearing)

#6 (Weight Distribution and Proportions)

#7 (How to Drive your Offroader and How to Prevent the Rims From 8297 From Slipping Inside Tyres)

See them altogether at BrickTruckTrial.com .

[PerryMakes]

the larger tires from the Nitro Muscle set are rubber in the rear and the harder plastic in the front

@Blakbird - then it seems Nathanaël made a wise choice for his recent concept car. Speaking of wisdom... I play a game called Eve Online that features a simulated market that's quite complex and dynamic. One of the things you see from time to time is an individual, or more likely an organization with deep pockets, corner the market for a certain product by purchasing 100% of that product from all existing suppliers - then dictating the price that item shall be sold for. There seems to be a wise individual applying this tactic to those very wheels you speak of

[Blakbird]

@Blakbird - then it seems Nathanaël made a wise choice for his recent concept car. Speaking of wisdom... I play a game called Eve Online that features a simulated market that's quite complex and dynamic. One of the things you see from time to time is an individual, or more likely an organization with deep pockets, corner the market for a certain product by purchasing 100% of that product from all existing suppliers - then dictating the price that item shall be sold for. There seems to be a wise individual applying this tactic to those very wheels you speak of

I am selling a bunch of those tires!! However I did not acquire them by buying up the existing market. There was no existing market. Rather I bought 20 copies of Nitro Muscle and parted them out, anticipating the demand for the tires. So it was virtually impossible to buy these tires prior to my making them available.

[Meatman]

I thought the Nitro Muscle front tires were the rubber ones like the 8070 has? No?

[Blakbird]

I thought the Nitro Muscle front tires were the rubber ones like the 8070 has? No?

Yes. But they are a different kind of rubber than the rear tires. They are stiffer and less flexible.

[lukeandahalf]

Has anyone made a more capable trial truck from just 8110 parts? Pictures?

8110 is the first set I have purchased in years = very limited parts supply. I have also three M motors.

The Unimog is a fantastic model, I would have much rather had rc and full function drive as opposed to pneumatics!

Kind Regards

[DLuders]

@ lukeandahalf: Welcome to Eurobricks! VFracingteam posted this

of his motorized Lego 8110 Trial Truck: