Pirate MOC

[Mister Phes]

1) I know you never wrote that, I reversed what you said, because it still holds true.

2) I think we're really having two debates; pirates and vikings in the context as Carribbean pirates and Scandinavian vikings, and the use of the words 'pirate' and 'viking' themselves.  Let's do keep them divided debates - this'll become even more confusing if they're mixed.  In any case, smuggling by sea wouldn't make them a pirate, unless the goods were stolen by them as well.

Here's a definition of pirate.

pi

[xwingyoda]

Very nice indeed :-D

Round 4........................Fight ;) :-D

[The Middleman]

Well, this the difference here, the word "pirate" does not imply cuture or any specifc group of people.

Let's assume that when we discuss their cultures, we're discussing Scandinavian Vikings and Caribbean pirates - the two main cultural groups of each one (although really, they're the same thing).

The word "pirate" is intended to be used irrespective of culture or whatever traditional title used to describe someone.

So was viking, at the time. When not raiding, they were called Danes, Northumbrians, etc. Viking has only gained historical significance as a culture due to the extreme power and cultural impact of Scandinavian Vikings at the time, and due to the fact that after Vikings settled down and gradually stopped raiding, there were no serious incursions of sea raiders until the upswing of the classical pirates hundreds of years later. The word was most likely lost as a regular noun sometime in that period, so they made a new word for sea raiders.

If you wish to discuss this in a LEGO sense, then we should probably start debating the superiority of the Vikings' horned helms over the pirate bandanas, or perhaps the power of the Viking spring-loaded missile launcher over pirate cannons. ;) Or maybe, I could start insulting you over how every other pirate seems to have an eyepatch, a pegleg, or a hook, and how that indicates their lack of fighting ability. Not to mention the total absence of proper armor and extremely fallible ships! :P

Yoda- you can stop that now. ;)

[xwingyoda]

Not yet my Vicking friend ;)

[V()()D()()]

Geese I didnt mean to start an argument :-D. All I said was I was workink on a Viking Boat... Oh well,

FIGHT , Ding Ding!!!

My ship is done but I still need to design and print up a sail... so I'll probrally have it done soon and I'll have pics!!

??? *sing* *kiss* ???

[The Middleman]

Geese I didnt mean to start an argument :-D. All I said was I was workink on a Viking Boat... Oh well,

FIGHT , Ding Ding!!!

My ship is done but I still need to design and print up a sail... so I'll probrally have it done soon and I'll have pics!!

??? *sing* *kiss* ???

Sounds awesome. I can't wait! :-D

[Mister Phes]

Let's assume that when we discuss their cultures, we're discussing Scandinavian Vikings and Caribbean pirates - the two main cultural groups of each one (although really, they're the same thing).

Clarify what you mean there... That doesn't sound right...

If you wish to discuss this in a LEGO sense, then we should probably start debating the superiority of the Vikings' horned helms over the pirate bandanas, or perhaps the power of the Viking spring-loaded missile launcher over pirate cannons. ;)  Or maybe, I could start insulting you over how every other pirate seems to have an eyepatch, a pegleg, or a hook, and how that indicates their lack of fighting ability.  Not to mention the total absence of proper armor and extremely fallible ships! :P

For a start you haven't seen the finished Viking sets yet so you're only making assumptions. You might even be getting carried away with your imagination. Too bad if you're disappointed with the final product.

Thefore you cannot know the power of the spring-loaded missile launchers. Too bad if the darn missiles got stuck and they didn't fire properly. If fire arms aren't acceptable in Viking honour then why are missile launchers? Or is that just an inaccurate Lego thing?

I haven't seen pictures of close ups of all the Viking mini-figures, but maybe you have. But if you haven't how do you know they don't suffer from some form of imparement? Besides Vikings lacked the knowledge to create eye patches or prosthetics so they just went without. Not exactly rocket science but they were devoting all their time to learning navigation and chartography. Plus, sadly the Vikings would have died long before they required such aids anyway. Hence why they didn't have them! Yes its true, the further back in time we go the shorter the average life expectancy.

And to clarify,"Pirate Theme" include Soldiers, Imperial Guards, Indigo Islands and Imperial Armada. None of which had hooks, peg legs or eye patches. And mostly only the senior Pirates (like captains) that had such aids as they were obviously older and had been through a lot more battles.

Pirates didn't need proper armour anyway! However the Imperial Armada soilders did have morions and cuirasses, but amour only slows down agility and reduces coordination anyway. So best to learn to fight without it, unlike those Viking wimps!

[MisterMattias]

Er... I'm sorry for not being active, and for not reading through all these comments. I just saw that you discussed the word 'Viking' and maybe this explanation has already been given above. Please don't kill me for that. I'm a Swede, and I've studied Nordic languages at the University. Therefore, I've studied Icelandic, and in class we talked a lot about the Vikings.

According to the teacher, the word simply comes from the words "vik" and "ing". Vik in Swedish means "bay" and the suffix "-ing" is just a determiner that says that you have this ability or that you are this. You know, like a man from Iceland is an "isl

[Mister Phes]

Er... I'm sorry for not being active, and for not reading through all these comments. I just saw that you discussed the word 'Viking' and maybe this explanation has already been given above. Please don't kill me for that. I'm a Swede, and I've studied Nordic languages at the University. Therefore, I've studied Icelandic, and in class we talked a lot about the Vikings.

According to the teacher, the word simply comes from the words "vik" and "ing". Vik in Swedish means "bay" and the suffix "-ing" is just a determiner that says that you have this ability or that you are this. You know, like a man from Iceland is an "isl

[The Middleman]

First; I'm just saying that when we talk about them as cultures, we should, by default, be talking about Caribbean pirates and Scandinavian Vikings, as they are the main cultural groups of each one. I then added that pirates and vikings are basically the same thing, anyway.

And my my, aren't we defensive about the sets!

The final products were displayed at the Nuremburg Toy Fair, which I've seen pictures from. The missiles are comprised of 3-long gray axels with red technic ball-joints on the end, and rest in a technic circular hole, so they won't get stuck. And yeah, it's an inaccurate LEGO thing. 'Playability' and all that jazz.

Yes, I have seen close-ups. http://festum.de/1000steine/album/album385...e_062.sized.jpg Check it out.

Not one of those has any impairment, except perhaps extremely-angry face syndrome, and no impairment is prevalent in any other picture (and there are many) either.

As far as life expectancy goes, you'll notice that scurvy was not a huge problem amongst Vikings. ;) Vikings never really died out, either - or at least, Northumbrians didn't. They just settled down in the lands they had conquered and their homelands.

As for the injuries, I was just pointing out the overabundance of eerily similar wounds on LEGO pirates. Don't take it too seriously. ;)

And the armor - they may not have needed armor, but they didn't have to wear rags, either. :P

Besides, Vikings weren't really about speed and agility - brute force sufficed. Most of the time, it was sea to land assaults, with very few sea battles, so there was no need. However, for land battles, armor is pretty much requisite - much larger forces (as usually they were facing a small army of some sort).

[Mister Phes]

And my my, aren't we defensive about the sets!

Isn't this the point of responding? Besides, I've got to put on a good show for the spectators!

The final products were displayed at the Nuremburg Toy Fair, which I've seen pictures from.  The missiles are comprised of 3-long gray axels with red technic ball-joints on the end, and rest in a technic circular hole, so they won't get stuck.  And yeah, it's an inaccurate LEGO thing.  'Playability' and all that jazz.

In theory they won't get stuck! Actually their design sounds very similiar to the 4+ Pirate Lego Cannons.

Yes, I have seen close-ups.  http://festum.de/1000steine/album/album385...e_062.sized.jpg  Check it out.

Not one of those has any impairment, except perhaps extremely-angry face syndrome, and no impairment is prevalent in any other picture (and there are many) either.

Yes, the impairment they suffer is dementia, hence their faces.

As far as life expectancy goes, you'll notice that scurvy was not a huge problem amongst Vikings. ;)  Vikings never really died out, either - or at least, Northumbrians didn't.  They just settled down in the lands they had conquered and their homelands.

Scurvy wasn't a huge problem amongst Pirates either. It was the explorers and travellers who went long distances without a constant source of vitamin C that suffered from it. As the Caribbean is a group of islands in close proximity to another there was no need to travel long distances. There were numerous plantations throughout the Caribbean providing produce such as oranges, which everyone knows are a good source of vitamin C.

As for the injuries, I was just pointing out the overabundance of eerily similar wounds on LEGO pirates.  Don't take it too seriously. ;)

I'm not taking any of this seriously! Except for the factual information that is, but the snide comments however are amusing. However, I must respond to them in such a manner in the interest of the audience.

And the armor - they may not have needed armor, but they didn't have to wear rags, either. :P

Besides, Vikings weren't really about speed and agility - brute force sufficed.  Most of the time, it was sea to land assaults, with very few sea battles, so there was no need.  However, for land battles, armor is pretty much requisite - much larger forces (as usually they were facing a small army of some sort).

Not all Pirates wore rags. That seems to be popularised by those older movies with cheap wardrobes. Some Pirates were exquisitely dressed. Besides, why would Pirates need to wear rags? All they need to do is plunder some nobleman's ship and help themselves to his wardrobe. The Vikings however, would not have won any fashion contests.

[Mister Phes]

I've created a poll: Vikings Vs Pirates of the Caribbean

Anyone want to vote go here:

http://eurobricks.hosting.ipsyn.com/eurofo...t=0entry18997

[The Middleman]

Oh, for the rags thing, I was talking about LEGO pirates. ;)

[Mister Phes]

Oh, for the rags thing, I was talking about LEGO pirates. ;)

Only the Captain Ironhook mini-figure was wearing rags. Like I mentioned previously, the rest of the Pirates were quite well dressed.

[Athos]

Blasted horny vikings... :P

Steve

[The Middleman]

Phes - right you are! Still, I wouldn't consider a lot of those tank tops high-class wear.

Athos - damn vignettes! :P

[snefroe]

to be honest, guys, i lost you all after the first page of posts :P

as an historian, i'd like to add just a few lines here:

1) comparing vikings with pirates is historically nonsense

2) people in the lowlands never used the word "Viking", but the word "Noorman", which means "men from the North".

3) vikings were feared because of their courage in battle, fast ships, but many vikings settled down in the lowlands and France and became one of the founding elements of the international trade in those days. many always seem to limit the viking culture to a gang of barbarians who murdered and pillaged. that's just like saying that all Americans are brainless cowboys who only care about their own money... Unfortunately, even TLC did not make the effort to give a more balanced view of what is part of her own history.

4) Pirates are in no way representatives of any culture, they're just an element in some historical events. would you compare vikings with modern pirates as well?

[xwingyoda]

Hey guys, really nice discussion going there. Need to do some research before posting anything :P

Really we should create a new debating forum section on history and philosophy ;)

So we would not be totally off topic here :-D ;)

[Mister Phes]

to be honest, guys, i lost you all after the first page of posts :P

as an historian, i'd like to add just a few lines here:

1) comparing vikings with pirates is historically nonsense

Yes I agree, as many posts ago I wrote "It really isn't a fair comparisson"

2) people in the lowlands never used the word "Viking", but the word "Noorman", which means "men from the North".

3) vikings were feared because of their courage in battle, fast ships, but many vikings settled down in the lowlands and France and became one of the founding elements of the international trade in those days. many always seem to limit the viking culture to a gang of barbarians who murdered and pillaged. that's just like saying that all Americans are brainless cowboys who only care about their own money... Unfortunately, even TLC did not make the effort to give a more balanced view of what is part of her own history.

Debate that with Blood Jay...

4) Pirates are in no way representatives of any culture, they're just an element in some historical events. would you compare vikings with modern pirates as well?

I've wrote many times "Pirates are irrespective of any cultures". And for the sake of it I'll write a quick definition of Pirate one more time "One who robs at sea or plunders the land from the sea without commission from a sovereign nation." By Pirates I don't imply just Pirates of the Caribbean, I imply anyone who commits acts under the definition of "pirate".

I'm pleased my responses have been closer to that of the historian! But for some reason Bloody Jay is just trying to set out to make me look wrong! He's soooo evil! *twisted*

[Mister Phes]

Hey guys, really nice discussion going there. Need to do some research before posting anything :P

Much research has been done. But unfortunately there's some inaccuracies in Blood Jay's responses - according to the historian anyway. :-D

Really we should create a new debating forum section on history and philosophy ;)

So we would not be totally off topic here :-D  ;)

Actually if we have a Pirate section for discussing Pirates it would make things a lot tidier. I've only been here under a week and I've created about half a dozen Pirate threads (there's only 18 threads in the entire Castle forum). Most of which have had a pretty popular response.

Mind you this is only the beginning! I've got plenty more to say about them, but I'm holding back so I don't flood the message board with Pirate threads.

[xwingyoda]

Mind you this is only the beginning!  I've got plenty more to say about them, but I'm holding back so I don't flood the message board with Pirate threads.

I can only imagine and hardly wait for more :-D ;)

BTW I was just checking Brickshelf and I found this Pirate MOC:

http://brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=121000

[Mister Phes]

Mind you this is only the beginning!  I've got plenty more to say about them, but I'm holding back so I don't flood the message board with Pirate threads.

I can only imagine and hardly wait for more :-D ;)

BTW I was just checking Brickshelf and I found this Pirate MOC:

http://brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=121000

Good work Master Yoda!

You're even on topic too, that's rare for this thread!

[The Middleman]

I think what you guys are missing is that I'm saying that a viking (in the sense of the word as used at their time) is the same thing as a pirate. snefroe, you're perfectly right about the trading and settling, but that's not what vikings did. They were only called vikings when they raided and pillaged. When they were trading, or just generally at any other time, they were called Northumbrians, Danes, noormen (thanks!), etc. Viking is also irrespective of culture and it is merely a mistake of our society that we consider it a term that indicates a specific culture.

Back then, 'viking' was basically the word for 'pirate'. So as well as you could say 'a viking is a type of pirate', I could say 'a pirate is a type of viking'. ;) Of course, there are more commonly recalled subsets of both - when someone says 'Viking', the 'horn-helmed' longboat-rowing raiders of Scandinavia come to mind. When someone says 'pirate', the eye-patched commandeerers of the Caribbean come to mind. Still, both are irrespective of culture and essentially mean the same thing.

[V()()D()()]

Umm, just to get this thread a little off-topic, does anyone have a good picture that I could use for a sail in my latest MOC. It's sort of a Viking/Piratey Skeleton ship, so what I want is a simple design like the one on the new Viking ship coming out. I want it to be red aswell and something like a skull or a dragon something like that, that is one or two colours.

[The Middleman]

Typically, Vikings used red/white sails, as it was thought to inspire fear in their enemies (blood-striped sails). I used red/white striped cloth from my local fabric store for mine. Here's a design if you feel like making a paper one, though: