The CCBS "Improvement" Thread

[Rayskull]

I worked a bit on a new part that could be used for hands with articulated fingers, and came up with this :

The center of the rods are 8mm (1 stud) apart.

The main problem is the axehole, because it makes the part bigger, but is needed to hold a weapon, or anything. I could try to put an axehole between the fingers, but then I would have to set the rods at least two studs apart, and it would be too wide.

The finger slots should be closed and I think the thumb bar should be on the top and bottom of the wrist with a cross hole in the center for holding weapons. That would fix the mold issues too

Edited November 22, 2014 by Rayskull

[Rayskull]

There I was motivated to sketch it, 3 fingers are optimal and would fit most existing Herofactory and Bionicle sets and MOCs without looking to big. the design is reversable and locks the fingers in so they don't slide off. thumb goes on top or bottom. this is a rough sketch.

[Leewan]

Hum... I don't know, your thumbs attachments would make the part very wide.

Here's a modified version of my original design :

There are no more molding problems, and the thumb can be attached to the axehole with these parts. You can use the other axehole and a couple technic parts to attach weapons.

[Front]

There could still be two shafts, if the support for those was a single central wall, and not two walls.

[Leewan]

Something like this ? But there would only be room for two fingers. I like the current solution, where there is room for three (even four with the other axehole) fingers and a thumb.

[Rayskull]

Hum... I don't know, your thumbs attachments would make the part very wide.

Here's a modified version of my original design :

There are no more molding problems, and the thumb can be attached to the axehole with these parts. You can use the other axehole and a couple technic parts to attach weapons.

I like the modeling skill here, but the fingers and thumbs easily slide off in this design, adding walls to the top and bottom wouldn't hurt the design too much, but that leaves us with no way to attach a weapon....perhaps we should look at the one previous 3 finger open hand design that snaps to a cross axle.

[Leewan]

I see what you mean, but don't worry, they won't slide more easily than with this part or this one, or even this one.

And the previous design (I guess you're talking about this one) was terrible, and didn't allow either to attach a weapon. I might work on it again, but I honestly prefer the latest one.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Leewan

[Rayskull]

What about this?

Ummmm whoops that is distinctly not the photo I picked.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Rayskull

[Leewan]

Hum... yeah, why not. I'll try. ;)

[Rayskull]

Hum... yeah, why not. I'll try. ;)

Whoops lol

I think it fixed itself.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Rayskull

[Shakar]

To me, his main flaws are the excessive amount of silver, namely on his feet and hands and the horrid, boring 2.0 torso. I had originally developed these two points, but then I realized the post was getting too long and OT (it became more about the new sets in general than Lewa himself), so I posted the draft in "The CCBS "Improvement" Thread" if anyone's interested.

So, this is what I had written originally (hope this is the right topic):

One of the main flaws is IMO the excessive amount of silver: I would've kept it only on the add-ons, like on Tahu the feet and hands are just too much for me.. granted, there wasn't any other hand colour they could've used without resorting to a recolour (except maybe black) but I'd argue that's the sign we're long overdue for some new colours for the hands- not special stuff like metallic or transparent shades, I'm talking about basic solid colours, especially the ones used by the Toa, like dark azure, bright green and dark orange. The gauntlet effect can be cool, but it's overdone when 3 Toa out of 6 make use of it. Likewise, many Protectors suffer from this. So I hope we get more hand recolours in the future (I appreciate the dark bley ones in Detective's Office, but they're not enough).

Then there's choice of torso shell. Again, that's a flaw plaguing Tahu too. As I said in the past, the 2.0 torso is way, way overused at this point and doesn't even look good. It was barely acceptable in HF but for BIONICLE it is just too smooth and simple. And I'll say it, it looks fat. It's almost ok for a well-built character like Tahu, but it looks so off on the slender Lewa. I would've preferred if they reused the far more interesting looking Breakout torso, but it seems they completely forgot about its existence, so I hope we get a new torso piece in the next waves (maybe directly inspired by the Mata/Nuva torso, like the new piston add-on!).

So, what I ask for in the future: new hand colours but especially a new torso shell. The 2.0 torso at its fifth year didn't overstay its welcome, far more so, it has become a zombie that feeds upon the brain of set designers.

(also, I want dark blue shells. I want lots of dark blue shells)

[Aanchir]

So, what I ask for in the future: new hand colours but especially a new torso shell. The 2.0 torso at its fifth year didn't overstay its welcome, far more so, it has become a zombie that feeds upon the brain of set designers.

There has been a new torso shell pretty much every year, though. In 2012 we got a new one for the Breakout sets, in 2013 we got a new one for the Brain Attack sets, and in 2014 we got a new one for the Legends of Chima sets. If the designers had wanted to retire the 2.0 torso shell, they could have done so at any point. But the 2.0 torso shell, with its smooth simplicity, has advantages that none of these other more detailed torso shells can offer. It has a specialized shape but its texture is just as simple and versatile as any of the smaller shells, and that's part of why we've seen it get plenty of use even in sets and themes where a newer torso shell was available.

In 2012, the Breakout torso shell would not have worked nearly as well as the 2.0 torso shell for Evo's Tank Arm, or for most of the Super Heroes constraction sets, or for Black Phantom's "cat burglar" aesthetic. In 2013 and 2014 it gave a level of organic smoothness to the Brain Attack and Invasion from Below villains and Legends of Chima constraction sets. Even Furno XL, who was already using a Silver Metallic Brain Attack torso shell, used two 2.0 torso shells in the same color on his legs, perhaps because the designers wanted that armor plating to look solid rather than mechanical and segmented.

If the 2.0 torso shell DOES get retired, you're right that we will need a new torso shell to replace it. But I'm frankly unsure how a replacement could really improve on it, because the reason it's stuck around so long is because it lacks specialized mechanical detail. Only a replacement with a similar level of generic smoothness could genuinely take the 2.0 torso shell's place in many of its applications. And I doubt that such a shell would actually be seen as an improvement by many of the people who are clamoring for new shell designs.

[Echo]

But if LEGO is trying to replicate the old aesthetic of Bionicle, which they appear to be doing with the new armor add-on, then it would make sense for them to design a new torso as well.

[Aanchir]

But if LEGO is trying to replicate the old aesthetic of Bionicle, which they appear to be doing with the new armor add-on, then it would make sense for them to design a new torso as well.

A new torso shell for BIONICLE definitely isn't out of the question. Though to be honest, I almost think recolors of the Brain Attack torso shell might be cooler, since that's one of the most versatile in terms of connection points and has a great texture (smooth enough to match basic shells and not draw too much attention to itself, but detailed enough create a sense of structural complexity and flexibility).

My point is that it's unlikely for the 2.0 torso shell to ever be completely discontinued unless an equally generic torso shell is introduced to take its place. If a more detailed torso shell could completely take its place, one of the ones we've already gotten like the Breakout or Brain Attack torso shells would have already done so. But frankly, there are some models or parts of models where you want a large, solid armor plate without any kind of elaborate mechanical detail.

And this doesn't just apply to themes like BIONICLE and Hero Factory. The Super Heroes and Legends of Chima constraction sets mainly depict non-mechanical characters, so for them a shell characterized by organic smoothness is often a much better fit for them than a shell characterized by detailed multi-layered armor plating or mechanical textures. Especially for places like a figure's back that are generally not meant to be heavily emphasized. Even System sets like Maula's Ice Mammoth Stomper can benefit greatly from the smoothness of the 2.0 torso shell, because it's consistent with the smooth curves, slopes, and edges of other parts of the model like its back and shoulders.

This is the case with most parts, really. The more generic they are, the more versatile they are. So introducing newer shells with more detailed textures to supplement the existing shells is fine, but expecting them to completely replace their more basic counterparts is unrealistic.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Aanchir

[Rayskull]

A new torso shell for BIONICLE definitely isn't out of the question. Though to be honest, I almost think recolors of the Brain Attack torso shell might be cooler, since that's one of the most versatile in terms of connection points and has a great texture (smooth enough to match basic shells and not draw too much attention to itself, but detailed enough create a sense of structural complexity and flexibility).

My point is that it's unlikely for the 2.0 torso shell to ever be completely discontinued unless an equally generic torso shell is introduced to take its place. If a more detailed torso shell could completely take its place, one of the ones we've already gotten like the Breakout or Brain Attack torso shells would have already done so. But frankly, there are some models or parts of models where you want a large, solid armor plate without any kind of elaborate mechanical detail.

And this doesn't just apply to themes like BIONICLE and Hero Factory. The Super Heroes and Legends of Chima constraction sets mainly depict non-mechanical characters, so for them a shell characterized by organic smoothness is often a much better fit for them than a shell characterized by detailed multi-layered armor plating or mechanical textures. Especially for places like a figure's back that are generally not meant to be heavily emphasized. Even System sets like Maula's Ice Mammoth Stomper can benefit greatly from the smoothness of the 2.0 torso shell, because it's consistent with the smooth curves, slopes, and edges of other parts of the model like its back and shoulders.

This is the case with most parts, really. The more generic they are, the more versatile they are. So introducing newer shells with more detailed textures to supplement the existing shells is fine, but expecting them to completely replace their more basic counterparts is unrealistic.

So a new chest piece is in order :)

[Aanchir]

So a new chest piece is in order :)

Yeah, sure, I probably wouldn't mind that! I think the current chest plate from the Super Heroes sets is really nice, and I'd hate to see it discontinued, but introducing a new one to give the next series of heroes a sense of freshness and variety would not necessarily be a bad thing, since there are few parts that perform the same function with a greater level of molded detail.

Certainly I think that introducing a new chest plate would be preferable to how Legends of Chima introduced an entirely new torso shell with fewer connection points than ever before. The Legends of Chima torso shell has its uses in terms of its bulkier shape and more hollow interior than a classic torso shell with Super Heroes chest plate, but it still felt like a downgrade to me as far as versatility is concerned.

[Rayskull]

Yeah, sure, I probably wouldn't mind that! I think the current chest plate from the Super Heroes sets is really nice, and I'd hate to see it discontinued, but introducing a new one to give the next series of heroes a sense of freshness and variety would not necessarily be a bad thing, since there are few parts that perform the same function with a greater level of molded detail.

Certainly I think that introducing a new chest plate would be preferable to how Legends of Chima introduced an entirely new torso shell with fewer connection points than ever before. The Legends of Chima torso shell has its uses in terms of its bulkier shape and more hollow interior than a classic torso shell with Super Heroes chest plate, but it still felt like a downgrade to me as far as versatility is concerned.

it looked really nice though, but limited to Chima.

[TheDesuComplex]

Yes, my initial thoughts on the new Chima torso were 'Oh, they have a Chi Orb... that's nice... but wait, what happened to all the connections?'. I don't have it in hand, but what I have seen of it has mostly been dissapointment at its lack of utility.

IMO, I don't think the 2.0 Torso is overused and still looks great. It looks okay when mixed in with other armor (like how Bionicle is changing it up with both it and the BA torso being used throughout the sets). I am not sure whether I would personally like to see a new torso shell made in the style of old Bionicle, but I have a feeling it might happen down the road.

Okay... How about feet? Once again I think that the 2.0 foot piece still looks great and is very useful, but the Protectors are proving that variety is good.

What kind of new feet would we get for a Master-sized set, and what kind of feel should they go for?

[Logan McOwen]

Yes, my initial thoughts on the new Chima torso were 'Oh, they have a Chi Orb... that's nice... but wait, what happened to all the connections?'. I don't have it in hand, but what I have seen of it has mostly been dissapointment at its lack of utility.

IMO, I don't think the 2.0 Torso is overused and still looks great. It looks okay when mixed in with other armor (like how Bionicle is changing it up with both it and the BA torso being used throughout the sets). I am not sure whether I would personally like to see a new torso shell made in the style of old Bionicle, but I have a feeling it might happen down the road.

Okay... How about feet? Once again I think that the 2.0 foot piece still looks great and is very useful, but the Protectors are proving that variety is good.

What kind of new feet would we get for a Master-sized set, and what kind of feel should they go for?

Something like these would be lovely.

Edited November 26, 2014 by LewiMOC

[Leewan]

Rayskull's idea :

There's room for only two fingers because I think four walls would be too much. Though, I could put two central walls like on my second concept.

Something like these would be lovely.

Or at least something less rounded (especially the front) than the 2.0 foot.

BTW, I think the Beasts / Protectors feet are a great replacement for the Bohrok feet, so what we mostly need now is a modern version of the Mata feet.

[Rayskull]

Rayskull's idea :

There's room for only two fingers because I think four walls would be too much. Though, I could put two central walls like on my second concept.

Or at least something less rounded (especially the front) than the 2.0 foot.

BTW, I think the Beasts / Protectors feet are a great replacement for the Bohrok feet, so what we mostly need now is a modern version of the Mata feet.

Yes that's awesome, I'd fight for three fingers but beggars can't be choosers very nice job on the render...you must be pretty skilled with modeling in general.

A piece like that might be used for more than just hands.

On the topic of new chest pieces (instead of new torso pieces) a new chest piece specifically for bionicle that includes mechanical details and stretches part way into the abdominal with those details.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Rayskull

[Shakar]

There has been a new torso shell pretty much every year, though. In 2012 we got a new one for the Breakout sets, in 2013 we got a new one for the Brain Attack sets, and in 2014 we got a new one for the Legends of Chima sets. If the designers had wanted to retire the 2.0 torso shell, they could have done so at any point. But the 2.0 torso shell, with its smooth simplicity, has advantages that none of these other more detailed torso shells can offer. It has a specialized shape but its texture is just as simple and versatile as any of the smaller shells, and that's part of why we've seen it get plenty of use even in sets and themes where a newer torso shell was available.

In 2012, the Breakout torso shell would not have worked nearly as well as the 2.0 torso shell for Evo's Tank Arm, or for most of the Super Heroes constraction sets, or for Black Phantom's "cat burglar" aesthetic. In 2013 and 2014 it gave a level of organic smoothness to the Brain Attack and Invasion from Below villains and Legends of Chima constraction sets. Even Furno XL, who was already using a Silver Metallic Brain Attack torso shell, used two 2.0 torso shells in the same color on his legs, perhaps because the designers wanted that armor plating to look solid rather than mechanical and segmented.

If the 2.0 torso shell DOES get retired, you're right that we will need a new torso shell to replace it. But I'm frankly unsure how a replacement could really improve on it, because the reason it's stuck around so long is because it lacks specialized mechanical detail. Only a replacement with a similar level of generic smoothness could genuinely take the 2.0 torso shell's place in many of its applications. And I doubt that such a shell would actually be seen as an improvement by many of the people who are clamoring for new shell designs.

Technically, you're right, we did get a new torso every year- I was aware of that when I wrote my post, so I should correct myself and say that the problem isn't the lack of new pieces, rather that the existing ones aren't used very well. The Breakout torso had a good design and came in a lot of colours but mysteriously disappeared after 2012; meanwhile the Brain Attack torso is arguably just as cool looking but disappeared during the entirety of 2013, and the 2015 sets reusing it haven't fixed its biggest problem (which is, it comes in two colours only!). There's also the 2014 "Zamor chest" Chima torso, which I really like, but, again, only two colours- and I'm sort of skecptical we're going to see it again.

I don't want the 2.0 torso to be retired- as you said, its smoothness is the key to its versatility, hence why it works as a giant shell element. When I said it overstayed its welcome, I meant that it did strictly as a torso piece: it's still an excellent element for plating, even in System sets (70145 is indeed a great example- CCBS works wonders with System, it's one of the reasons I like it so much!). The problem is that, due to said simplicity, it looks too plain on the new BIONICLE sets: Lewa and Tahu have amazing details in their armour, their weapons, their masks, their amazing printed chests, and then.. a plain, generic looking torso sits there. It's just too jarring to me.

I shouldn't forget this is the very first wave of the "new" theme, so the 2.0 torso could be a stand in until we get a new torso in the later waves (as I said before, maybe one harkening back to the Toa Mata torso). But I think the Breakout and Brain Attack torsos, with the proper recolours, would be enough AND would work really well together. I'm thinking about something a la Toa Inika: a more masculine, buff torso (the Breakout torso with its six-pack can that take that role) alongside a more androgynous, even feminine if you wish, slender torso (the Brain Attack torso fits, with its wider hips and more ambiguous plating design). If the right pieces existed in the right recolours, this is what I would've done for the Toa. So I'm using Breakout torsos for now (except for Gali).

As for the feet, I agree we need new ones, not to replace the design we have, just to bring some variety. I wouldn't mind to see the 1.0 feet again (I use them myself from time to time), but they've disappeared from the Customer Service inventory, so I fear they have stopped producing them. The problem isn't (to me) as annoying as the 2.0 torso issue, but I'd like to see another design (again, two designs coexisting like on the Toa Inika).

The idea of new chest pieces is good as well. As much as I adore the chest printing on the new Toa, I somewhat get the feeling they added it to cover up the fact that they're old parts, to create the illusion of novelty. So I wouldn't mind more Super Hero chests with new print designs, the ones we got are lovely, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a new chest armour piece, maybe something similar to the Nuva armour?

Oh, and I love all those hand designs. Keep it up!

[Leewan]

Yes that's awesome, I'd fight for three fingers but beggars can't be choosers

You're lucky, someone else told me that it would / could be better with three fingers. So I guess I had to do it :

I might modify it a bit, I'm not totally satisfied with the design of the part : I find it kinda "ugly".

very nice job on the render...you must be pretty skilled with modeling in general.

Haha, thank you !

But thanks to your drawing I didn't have to start from scratch, which helped me a lot. x)

[Aanchir]

The idea of new chest pieces is good as well. As much as I adore the chest printing on the new Toa, I somewhat get the feeling they added it to cover up the fact that they're old parts, to create the illusion of novelty. So I wouldn't mind more Super Hero chests with new print designs, the ones we got are lovely, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a new chest armour piece, maybe something similar to the Nuva armour?

One thing that could make for a cool new chest piece would be something with a similar texture to the giant chest plate used for Hulk, Stormer XL, CHI Gorzan, and Onua, but with the size and connection points of the regular Super Heroes chest plate. It'd be smooth enough to be consistent with existing CCBS parts (and ideally, still allow for ornate printed patterns like the current ones), but it'd also have those molded vents on the sides to add detail. As a bonus, future "giant" characters could continue using the giant chest plate, and it would be even more consistent with the smaller chest plate than it had been previously!

Don't know if it could entirely replace the standard Super Heroes chest plate, of course. The molded vents might look out-of-place on a more organic character. Then again, that didn't hold the LEGO Group's designers back when creating the Hulk or CHI Gorzan sets which also had that motif, so perhaps it wouldn't be considered too overtly mechanical even for themes like those.

[Rayskull]

You're lucky, someone else told me that it would / could be better with three fingers. So I guess I had to do it :

I might modify it a bit, I'm not totally satisfied with the design of the part : I find it kinda "ugly".

Haha, thank you !

But thanks to your drawing I didn't have to start from scratch, which helped me a lot. x)

I think that would fix a lot of hand problems right there!