Clone Brands Train discussions

[Sir E Fullner]

I've seen them on BeanMeister22's channel, and I have to say, they aren't the least bit realistic.

However, they are cheaper and they come on the new brown rails.

[kyphur]

"How is this legal?", well, universal laws, TLG's patents and trademarks don't work in China. When they clone the bricks and practically anything they don't get arrested by Chinese government because they are not doing something wrong in Chinese laws and it's only until someone else foreign is to catch the bootleggers, take them to court and ...

Dude... You really need to de-stress a bit.

First it isn't bootleg. Granted Enlighten started with things like direct rip-offs of pirate ships and such but as has been pointed out only a couple of the Train Sets can be considered direct knock-offs of the Lego version. Compare EN's Frisco Fe to TLG's Santa Fe Engine, sure the prototype is the same but the two models are miles apart in construction and I actually like some of the things EN has done on their version.

Second, as has already been pointed out LEGO has lost exclusive rights to manufacture the interlocking brick design.

Third, Mr President, if you don't like the brand then simply don't spend your money on the brand.

LEGO is #1 for sure but honestly I just might swipe the Gray Portholes (depending on how close the print color is to Lego Grays) from the Frisco Fe as I'm making my own 8 wide Santa Fe since I can get 4 of them for $16 verses $20 - $25 each for TLG version of that part (and the supply on BL is currently very low).

I say to each his own...

[tedbeard]

I have to say that EB membership has shown a greater tolerance for the "Clone" brands lately and I share your hope that the trend continues.

Actually I think people have simply gotten tired of the apologists for this crap and try to ignore these posts. EB admins may have decided that this is no longer exclusively a LEGO fan community but do not take that as majority approval thank you very much.

It's not illegal to make similar bricks here either, LEGO lost their patents long ago. Outright copying sets is a different matter however.

Exactly right. It is not against the law to make (poor-quality) bricks but it is against the law to copy LEGO set design and box art. Anyone who buys these sets is IMO participating in or at least condoning a criminal act and directly hurting the bottom line of TLG.

[kyphur]

Actually I think people have simply gotten tired of the apologists for this crap and try to ignore these posts. EB admins may have decided that this is no longer exclusively a LEGO fan community but do not take that as majority approval thank you very much.

Wow, seriously. Please point out exactly where I said anything about "Majority Approval". According to my understand of language "Greater Tolerance" does not equate "Majority Approval".

Furthermore, I would never apologize for anyone else's actions as it's not my place.

Exactly right. It is not against the law to make (poor-quality) bricks but it is against the law to copy LEGO set design and box art. Anyone who buys these sets is IMO participating in or at least condoning a criminal act and directly hurting the bottom line of TLG.

And I would agree that it's problematic when a company does directly copy TLG Sets and emulate the Box/Instruction designs in such a way as to intentionally blur the line between their product and TLG's (regardless of the brick quality).

On the other hand, as I have already pointed-out of the 18 currently available EN Train Sets only a couple can be considered to fall into that category.

To go even further, EN does have a few unique pieces that I wish LEGO would make, many of them used in their Train line. Maybe if EN improves their piece quality enough and completely discontinues pirating LEGO Set designs then it could benefit everyone by providing a cheap alternative to those who care more about price and by motivating TLG to think about some of the interesting EN piece designs and expanding their own options in areas that are lacking.

[President of Brick Town]

If I ever had a Lego train I will only buy EN to compare to Lego's.

[peterab]

It's not illegal to make similar bricks here either, LEGO lost their patents long ago. Outright copying sets is a different matter however.

- Sok.

Exactly right. It is not against the law to make (poor-quality) bricks but it is against the law to copy LEGO set design and box art. Anyone who buys these sets is IMO participating in or at least condoning a criminal act and directly hurting the bottom line of TLG.

I always find it funny when people get so uptight about clone brands given that the original patents belonged to Kidicraft and TLG illegally produced copies for much of its early history. TLG only purchased the patents many years later, from the original owners widow, while they were in litigation against Mega brands. It's a bit sad the original creator died without being rewarded for his vision, and the copies made it big.

It's even more sad that some fans would try and suppress competition which is likely to be healthy, on the erroneous notion that TLG has some exclusive right to produce these kind of toys, or that others shouldn't behave as TLG did themselves.

[kyphur]

It's even more sad that some fans would try and suppress competition which is likely to be healthy, on the erroneous notion that TLG has some exclusive right to produce these kind of toys, or that others shouldn't behave as TLG did themselves.

Very well said!

[Pingles]

I buy the Lego sets because of the quality.

I have purchased licensed competitor kits and been horrified by the quality. It is heartbreaking watching a three year old stacking competitor bricks only to have them fall apart because their quality control is so bad. We couldn't even make a "wall" for her Humpty Dumpty because the wall would collapse.

If these upstarts keep up with the quality and design their own models -- GREAT! If they can deliver tight quality control and clever designs for less money they deserve the business.

But if they're just charging less for low quality knock-offs then I steer clear.

[tedbeard]

It's even more sad that some fans would try and suppress competition which is likely to be healthy, on the erroneous notion that TLG has some exclusive right to produce these kind of toys, or that others shouldn't behave as TLG did themselves.

Before you post I suggest you read and understand what is being written. You quoted me and then wrote the above with no comprehension of what was written.

I was speaking about the direct rip-offs of LEGO sets in violation of copyright laws and the copying of box art to fool consumers into believing they were buying LEGO products which is also illegal in most jurisdictions.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with patents and fair competition.

Be more careful with your quotes and/or analysis in the future please.

[Brickviller]

I've bought many 'fake' building bricks in the past, some better than others. But we also need to realize it's not all about the quality of the bricks. It's about even more. I think there are good reasons why these fake sets are so cheap, and not only because of their inferior material. Also things like 'do these companies care about environmental impact'? Most fake brands come from China, and while I have nothing against China, most products are made of inferior quality (because we in the west want to have cheap products tough..). But also China is one of the bigger poluters on this planet, while Lego got several prizes for their environmental policy. Also another thing are the working conditions of the people who're making these toys. Again nothing against China, but most of us know that many people must work there under conditions that would not be accepted in factories in the west. Now I don't want to have a discussion about these things here, but I do think these things matter, and some constumers may not realize that when they say that Lego is way to expensive compared to these fake brands.

[peterab]

That has nothing whatsoever to do with patents and fair competition.

Be more careful with your quotes and/or analysis in the future please.

I think it is unfair to get upset at one company for copyright infringement (which by the way may not be happening since the Chinese government pretty much only enforce them for exports anyway, in which case it's the importers breaching customs regulations, not the producers), while singing the praises of TLG who founded their brick business on patent violation. In fact it seem like hypocrisy if you actually know about TLG's past actions.

I think the link is clear enough, since patent violation and copyright violation are similar, that a reasonable analogy can be drawn.

As others have said most of Enlightens trains are custom designs so perhaps it is you who should be more careful with your analysis. At this point you just look biased, since you are willing to ignore TLG's past behavior, but accuse others who are willing to ignore Enlightens few copyright infringing sets of "participating in or at least condoning a criminal act". By the way my understanding is copyright is very rarely if ever criminal, but is civil law in most countries.

I also am pleased that Eurobricks moderators know that clone and third party brands are of interest to some builders, and I think if you don't like it that's fine but it doesn't give you the right to smother other opinions by falsely accusing them of participating in criminal acts. This has a lot to do with fair competition, since I've been told by Jim Foulds, TLG's current strategy is to compete on quality, rather than further pursue legal means (though I'm pretty sure their last attempts were mostly failing). Without competition that pressure would not be there.

I think had you been more careful with your accusations I probably wouldn't have felt the need to quote you.

[skaako]

LEGO is #1 for sure but honestly I just might swipe the Gray Portholes (depending on how close the print color is to Lego Grays) from the Frisco Fe as I'm making my own 8 wide Santa Fe since I can get 4 of them for $16 verses $20 - $25 each for TLG version of that part (and the supply on BL is currently very low).

Sorry to say, the printing on the ones that came with my set were really transparent, overall though the pieces are quite good quality in comparison to other brick manufacturers. And the bogies, wheels and couples are quite well made too.

Exactly right. It is not against the law to make (poor-quality) bricks but it is against the law to copy LEGO set design and box art. Anyone who buys these sets is IMO participating in or at least condoning a criminal act and directly hurting the bottom line of TLG.

I think i would be laughed at if i took my enlighten train to the local police office and ask them to slap the cuffs on

Although i do agree the company that produces Enlighten clearly do copy Lego designs, i believe the intended market was not aimed at those who would or had the ability to purchase the original Lego products. China has a big enough market of its own to not need to rely on the western world for sales of building toys. Some countries in asia have no direct way of purchasing Lego, no Lego Shop at Home, no Lego in stores, if their only option is to buy a product that is available to them, then they will. If Lego can find a viable market in these countries then the other companies producing bricks have given them an introduction to the market, and then Lego can show to that market their product is more superior in design and quality.

I always find it funny when people get so uptight about clone brands given that the original patents belonged to Kidicraft and TLG illegally produced copies for much of its early history. TLG only purchased the patents many years later, from the original owners widow, while they were in litigation against Mega brands. It's a bit sad the original creator died without being rewarded for his vision, and the copies made it big.

It's even more sad that some fans would try and suppress competition which is likely to be healthy, on the erroneous notion that TLG has some exclusive right to produce these kind of toys, or that others shouldn't behave as TLG did themselves.

I agree too.. Very well said :)

Edited October 8, 2011 by skaako

[medib]

I've bought many 'fake' building bricks in the past, some better than others. But we also need to realize it's not all about the quality of the bricks. It's about even more. I think there are good reasons why these fake sets are so cheap, and not only because of their inferior material. Also things like 'do these companies care about environmental impact'? Most fake brands come from China, and while I have nothing against China, most products are made of inferior quality (because we in the west want to have cheap products tough..). But also China is one of the bigger poluters on this planet, while Lego got several prizes for their environmental policy. Also another thing are the working conditions of the people who're making these toys. Again nothing against China, but most of us know that many people must work there under conditions that would not be accepted in factories in the west. Now I don't want to have a discussion about these things here, but I do think these things matter, and some constumers may not realize that when they say that Lego is way to expensive compared to these fake brands.

I dont think this is a valid Lego vs Clone brands argument.

Lego used to make its bricks in Denmark, Switzerland and in the US. Now most of its bricks are made in Czec Republic, Poland,

Mexico, and even China. China, if I remember correctly, makes the Collectible minifigs.

I think the key difference is this:

the clone brands use 100% production in countries in asia, that they ignore quality issues that may come up.

We know if there is an issue with Lego, we can call the consumer line and send in a complaint. I don't think this

is available with other clone brands.

[WesternOutlaw]

I'm just catching up with this discussion, but let's keep it respectful and non accusatory to all who have strong opinions related to this subject. This and other discussions related to "clone" and other copies of LEGO seem to resurface from time-to-time. I think it's fine to discuss because there is some interest in these brands and the topic of copying LEGO but I hate seeing the discussions lead to argument. Let's keep it nice.

Medib: my comments weren't aimed at your last response, just where I caught up with the discussion.

[President of Brick Town]

Has TLG and En light En went to court?

Edited October 16, 2011 by President of Brick Town

[kyphur]

Well I received the first of five boxes from China today with 4 of the 19 Enlighten Train Sets I ordered (1 of each plus an Extra "Frisco Fe").

Here is the Flickr Set where I'll be posting comparison shots of the Enlighten & Lego Versions based on the same prototypes.

My initial impression is that I'm surprised by this set. I was really expecting something of much less quality but the parts all had great clutch strength and the finished model feels rather solid. Of course it's not up to TLG standards but it's definitely a lot better than I expected. On the downside the printed portholes color doesn't match the brick colors very well.

I like some of the build features of the Enlighten version over TLG's like the fact that the engineer's cabin has doors. I also like how the Enlighten front bogie is 1 stud longer than TLG's version (but they didn't include a coupler fro the front).

Of course there are things I don't like about the Enlighten version. The mechanical undercarriage is just open to the world. There's no door/baffle on the back of the Locomotive. I also wish the yellow stripe on the nose extended all the way to the Windscreen.

For playing inside/access to the Engine the rear half of the Enlighten Loco hinges up! I'm not really sure if I like that as much as TLG's standard removable roof design.

Accompanying the Frisco Fe (#629) were #628 - Enlighten Passenger Car, #627 - Enlighten Steam Locomotive & #625 - Happy Christmas Locomotive. I'll be posting images of all of the Enlighten Trains and their TLG equivalents (if they exist and I have them) as I receive & build them.

I noticed on the back of the boxes that Enlighten has track side structures also which include a full Station, a simple Train Stop, a Level Crossing (with signal tower) and an Engine Shed. After I'm done with the Locomotives and rolling stock I just might pony up the cash to grab one of each of those sets as well.

Edited October 18, 2011 by kyphur

[President of Brick Town]

Ah, the golden era of 9V . I see that the Enlighten colour is the same as LEGO.

[tbroyd]

Thanks for the photos on the Frisco Loco Kyphur.

I've also seen photos with the buildings on but never seen them for sale, the loco shed looks similar to the Lego one which now sells for silly money on ebay & bricklink, I always wondered how much the enlighten ones might cost?

[kyphur]

Thanks for the photos on the Frisco Loco Kyphur.

I've also seen photos with the buildings on but never seen them for sale, the loco shed looks similar to the Lego one which now sells for silly money on ebay & bricklink, I always wondered how much the enlighten ones might cost?

You're welcome, as I said there will be more to come as the sets arrive and get built.

Regarding the buildings, I just got a disappointing answer from the Chinese seller. He says the buildings were never put into production by Enlighten. I can hardly believe I just wrote that I'm disappointed that Enlighten didn't produce a set!

[medib]

I cant believe that these (Frisco Fe)trains are available on e-bay are only $10 plus $10 shipping. Versus over $100 (used) on Ebay for the original superchief.

[Lord Insanity]

I cant believe that these (Frisco Fe)trains are available on e-bay are only $10 plus $10 shipping. Versus over $100 (used) on Ebay for the original superchief.

Well as I pointed out in this thread back in march, these Enlighten sets (or at least the Union Pacific loco I have) are easily 90-95% the same quality as LEGO. So the 80% cost difference should make people think very carefully. You can always turn the printed parts around and sticker them Santa Fe after all. Of course Enlighten red and yellow are "brighter" and do not match LEGO red and yellow very well so that doesn't work if you care about the engine color being "off". Dark bluish grey in the Union Pacific loco is spot on exact though so you can use two 1x1 wedges on the headlight bricks shown here.

Some people may complain about clone brands but I really have to wonder if Lego would have ever come back to the golden age they are in now if it weren't for the clone brands nipping at their heals. *cough*Town Jr.*cough* After all competition breeds quality. Remember all of Enlighten's parts are printed, no stickers at all.

[Laura Beinbrech]

Hmmm.... Normally, I don't bother with clone brands due to the fact that their quality is usually crap... Tycho being the one exception, in my experience, whose bricks were as good as LEGO (I still have a few Tycho Bricks from before my first dark age).

Having checked out some of the sets in the link, I may have to somewhat revise my opinion... I'm definitely going to see about possibly ordering at least one track pack ($8.99 for an entire oval track's worth that looks like it will work with LEGO train tracks? Why yes, I WILL take that, thank you very much), although I may not, since I'm thinking about using ME Models metal rails and rigging up some kind of pickups to modify some PF motors to run off track power (supplied via 9v DC-adapter)...

I'm also thinking about getting their "Train Head" powered unit as a cheap way to move my trains around without investing in PF stuff that I may or may not end up really wanting.... Plus I want to see how it works and/or if it can be modified (if anyone here bought one and could provide some more info I'd be grateful).

Plus I do agree with Lord Insanity's statement about competition being good for keeping prices down and quality up: I remember some of the gosh-awful sets from the mid-late 1990's (I nearly went into my second dark age early, but was only kept out of it by the Adventurers, Ninja and Star Wars themes). I happen to have a 1993 Shop at Home catalog, and well... I see people around here, and on other LEGO sites, constantly complaining about the high price of LEGO, but I found some interesting things after doing a quick comparison with sets listed in the latest S@H catalog, i.e. 1993: Black Seas Barracuda, 865 pieces for $125 vs 2011: Queen Anne's Revenge, 1097 pieces for $119.... Yes, a LICENSED SET released this year is actually CHEAPER than an in-house theme set was 18 years ago, and I found similar comparisons, meaning that LEGO's prices, on average, have stayed virtually the same for the past 20 years, give or take... I sure wish I could say that about OTHER things (anyone remember the last time when gas was under $2.00 a gallon?), and I'm sure that "teh eval clones!!!11" are one of the reasons for that.

...Just my $0.02 on that topic, though. I'm still tempted to get that power unit, even though it's basically a single piece. I think it's a pretty good looking piece and looks like it is worth it for the money...

Edited October 19, 2011 by Hikaro Takayama

[kyphur]

these Enlighten sets (or at least the Union Pacific loco I have) are easily 90-95% the same quality as LEGO. So the 80% cost difference should make people think very carefully.

I don't know that I would say 90-95% same quality as LEGO, maybe 75-80% at most. I will say that there are a few unique Enlighten pieces I wish LEGO would make like the 2x2 Plate with Studs on both sides.

I'm thinking about using ME Models metal rails and rigging up some kind of pickups to modify some PF motors to run off track power (supplied via 9v DC-adapter).

I'd be interested in contributing resources to a project like this that ends up with power pick-ups that can be used for each of 2 applications:

1) Directly Power TLG PF System

2) Plug into TLG LiPo Battery and provide charging while running.

I'm also thinking about getting their "Train Head" powered unit as a cheap way to move my trains around without investing in PF stuff that I may or may not end up really wanting.... Plus I want to see how it works and/or if it can be modified (if anyone here bought one and could provide some more info I'd be grateful).

Got any info on this "Train Head", who makes it? Do you have any links?

[Laura Beinbrech]

I'd be interested in contributing resources to a project like this that ends up with power pick-ups that can be used for each of 2 applications:

1) Directly Power TLG PF System

2) Plug into TLG LiPo Battery and provide charging while running.

Well, my initial idea is to use ME Models Metal Rails (since LEGO 9v rails cost a King's Ransom on BL) and some kind of motor brush or slot car brush as pickup, with a 9v brick (as in one of those heavy-duty DC adapters, which are usually rated at 3-7 Amps as opposed to the small "wall wart" ones that are usually only good for 1-2 Amps max) providing a steady voltage supply to the rails (and using flex-track pieces to isolate reversing loops so you don't get any shorting problems)... But enough OT, I'll see about posting some schematics and such when I get the idea more down-pat.

Got any info on this "Train Head", who makes it? Do you have any links?

Well, I looked closer, and it was just being sold by the same reseller... It was actually made by SLUBAN, which, IIRC, actually makes MEGABLOKS look high-quality! ...but here is the link anyways...

[tbroyd]

Anyone had any experience of these

Looks like a complete remote control engine and carraige for £39 (plus £24 shipping). Could be cheaper elsewhere but wondered just how good the mechanism etc is

Edited October 19, 2011 by tbroyd