Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Leewan]

Excited to see a Gen2 Vahi... Perhaps that is the unknown Bionicle GWP in March? That would be amazing.

I hardly believe they would create a new mold for a promo item. Unless the Mask of Time appears later in a future set. But a recolor of an existing part, like the 2013 black Brain, or a mini set, like this year's HF polybags, are much more likely.

[DuckBricks]

I hardly believe they would create a new mold for a promo item. Unless the Mask of Time appears later in a future set. But a recolor of an existing part, like the 2013 black Brain, or a mini set, like this year's HF polybags, are much more likely.

Makes sense. One can only hope, though.

[Scarilian]

@Scarilian: This is a new continuity. It's been debunked that it's the same Mask of Time. The design of the Vahi is a 'half a mask', but that doesn't mean at all that it has a second half. And we aren't getting the whole mask in G2, we're getting a full mask. And the references in the animations are just Easter eggs for the older fans, nothing more.

I listed multiple aspects and support for these aspects hinting towards it being a continuation... you meanwhile have no evidence to support any of your debunks or otherwise.

- Their is nothing debunking the Mask Of Time being part of the same mask or even the same mask as the Vahi in G1

- Their is nothing stating that the 'Half a mask' comment meant nothing

- Whole mask and full mask have exactly the same meaning

- Easter Eggs have been used in the past of Bionicle to hint towards Mata Nui being under the Island

The Toa are also different characters. Their personalities have changed, and, most notably, their mask powers have changed. If these were the same characters, Tahu would still have his Mask of Shielding, Pohatu his Mask of Speed, etc. This time around, their masks control their elements.

Certain aspects of the Toa have changed but thats nothing compared to the changes the Toa Metru went under when they became Hordika and that was still the same continuity.

Now. Can we all agree this is a new continuity?

If anything everything factual points it not to be a new continuity, something which you want everyone to ignore for some odd reason...

[Kalhiki]

You can't just sit there and say "It's just for the fans" and nothing else without and concrete evidence. And well, yeah. Of course it's going to be a full mask in G2, which implies that the Vahi we got in G1 wasn't finished.

Okay, sure. Evidence, I have none. But I believe the Vahi references in the animations are hinting at something bigger with the powers of Time. Not necessarily that the exact same Vahi from G1 is going to make an appearance.

And no. Because it's a full mask in G2 doesn't imply anything of the sort that the G1 Vahi wasn't finished. I believe you said something about concrete evidence?

Listen. I'm very open to different ideas. At this point, I just like to think G2 is a separate continuity. Will G1 make an influence over G2? Who's to say? I'd like to think not. But if it turns out the G1 Vahi (or anything G1, for that matter) plays some sort of role in the future: Cool. I'm just going to sit around and see things unfold.

EDIT: Sorry, Scarilian, didn't see your post. I mentioned some stuff earlier in this post about my opinion, but a few things:

1) I don't exactly understand what you're trying to say on your first point. Sorry, wording's weird.

2) "half a mask meant nothing" Talk to the member Darth Vader here on Eurobricks. He clarified what the Lego rep at NYCC was saying about the half a mask. I believe it was basically, "things are going to be different in G2. The Vahi looked like half a mask in G1. This time around it'll look like a full mask". Nothing at all about it being the other half.

3) You missed my italics.

4) True. Good point. No counterargument.

Keep in mind, that's Hordika venom. If the Toa were simply plucked from time from G1, you wouldn't think they'd have undergone such wild changes.

Aside from the Mask of Time popping up, I can't really see any other possible evidence that it's the same continuity.

Keep in mind that the goal of G2 is to keep the story simpler. And does connecting it to a complex, often convoluted story that ended roughly five years ago and began way back '01 really keep things simple?

Edited December 28, 2014 by Kalhiki

[the last chronicler]

Funny how anyone can say there is no evidence of continuity, it not even January yet and we have MULTIPLE references to time, to the original mask of time, and to the mask of time existing in Gen 2. Again, the sets aren't even released yet and references to Gen 1 have increased exponentially. I certainly think the current evidence is loose still, but I think people are taking Darth Vader and Bzpowers authority as a source of fact, over and above the facts themselves. We know the Vahi was referred to as half a mask and the concept of a whole mask will appear, but just because they didn't say 'the other half of the mask' doesn't mean it isn't the same mask. In fact, I would argue that only the upper half of the mask in Gen 2 would imply two universes that share a divided mask, whereas a 'whole' mask implies both parts originate in the same continuity as the mask would have to start as 1 piece.

Will G1 make an influence over G2? Who's to say? I'd like to think not.

Your letting your bias overthrow the evidence, take things as they are not as you want them to be. You may be right, then why would LEGO do this? The simplest answer is a connection to Gen 1 whether literal or metaphorical. If they wanted to just imply something significant about time outside of Gen 1 continuity they could have hinted at or shown the new full Gen 2 mask of time, but instead they are slowly hinting at the significance of a mask very well known to 2001 fans.

EDIT: NOTE: I was never in favor of continuity in the sense that the story was far in the future. If BIONICLE was an epic about the BIOlogical chroNICLE of Mata Nui, then the defeat of Makuta and dissapearance of Mata Nui represented the end of the story in my mind. Sequels and prequels are almost always worse. The only type of prequel I would have accepted is if it was none-story based and simply cool sets for characters we have had yet to see in Gen 1, and for sequels it would only work if their was some grander evil force manipulating the story from before the great beings that had to be defeated. So while I find that time travel stories are interesting and have potential, it's not like I am for continuity for the sake of continuity.

Edited December 28, 2014 by the last chronicler

[Clone 01354 Productions]

Now. Can we all agree this is a new continuity?

Yes! Finally, someone who is ready to accept that Gen 1 is done!

[Scarilian]

Funny how anyone can say there is no evidence of continuity, it not even January yet and we have MULTIPLE references to time, to the original mask of time, and to the mask of time existing in Gen 2. Again, the sets aren't even released yet and references to Gen 1 have increased exponentially. I certainly think the current evidence is loose still, but I think people are taking Darth Vader and Bzpowers authority as a source of fact, over and above the facts themselves. We know the Vahi was referred to as half a mask and the concept of a whole mask will appear, but just because they didn't say 'the other half of the mask' doesn't mean it isn't the same mask. In fact, I would argue that only the upper half of the mask in Gen 2 would imply two universes that share a divided mask, whereas a 'whole' mask implies both parts originate in the same continuity as the mask would have to start as 1 piece.

This ^

If we look at whats been shown to us directly then we have a ton of factual evidence supporting the idea of this being some form of GSR (Great Spirit Robot) event that will be revealed in future. A way for Lego to say 'hey, look at us, we planned this from the start. if you go back you can see the clues leading up to the reveal'

Excited to see a Gen2 Vahi... Perhaps that is the unknown Bionicle GWP in March? That would be amazing.

Honestly if it is a polybag i'd expect it to be a recolored Protector Mask or a recolored Skull Spider given the release date. Seems a bit early for it to be based around any of the Summer Sets. Then again it could be the NYCC transparent Tahu mask...

Yes! Finally, someone who is ready to accept that Gen 1 is done!

Its more ignorance to directly ignore whats being presented in favour of ones personal opinions on the matter.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Scarilian

[Clone 01354 Productions]

- Easter Eggs have been used in the past of Bionicle to hint towards Mata Nui being under the Island

Subtle hints, that no one would be able to decipher. A Vahi appearing very clearly in every video? Yeah, they obviously WANT to ruin their entire story.....

[arc]

I'm pretty sure the vahi appearances are just easter eggs for the old fans. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Scarilian]

Subtle hints, that no one would be able to decipher. A Vahi appearing very clearly in every video? Yeah, they obviously WANT to ruin their entire story.....

The GSR wasnt noticeable for practically anyone in G1. The new series is apparently more child focused, as such it logically makes sense that they'd make the GSR event more easily noticeable.

I mean, laying this out with the basics;

Temple Of Time, Mask Of Time, Toa lacking memories, Focus on the past and future, Ancient Prophecy of the Toa, carvings of the Toa despite the Toa not arriving on the Island

Can you really tell me all this doesnt hint towards time travel that could be used to connect the generations?

Edited December 28, 2014 by Scarilian

[Mesonak]

I think arguing about it, at this juncture, is a waste of time and energy. While I personally do believe the theory of a generational connection through the Vahi, I think Lego's intent is to leave it open-ended; as such, those looking for direct confirmation probably aren't going to get it until the end of the line when the Toa will possibly return to their timeline, if ever.

I will say that, taken on their own, a lot of the references can simply be passed off as mere easter eggs to the old continuity. Taken as a collective mass, however, I cannot think of a reason why Lego would be focusing so heavily on time, of all things, if they were not trying to strongly imply time travel. While concrete proof is most definitely scarce, I do not believe there is enough evidence to write off the possibility completely.

In the end, I think the intent is to leave it open to interpretation. So the continued debate isn't doing anyone any favors. :P

Edited December 28, 2014 by Mesonak

[Nekchir]

I'm pretty sure the vahi appearances are just easter eggs for the old fans. Nothing more, nothing less.

So you didn't see the new Lego Magazine images?

[Loki]

The GSR wasnt noticeable for practically anyone in G1. The new series is apparently more child focused, as such it logically makes sense that they'd make the GSR event more easily noticeable.

I mean, laying this out with the basics;

Temple Of Time, Mask Of Time, Toa lacking memories, Focus on the past and future, Ancient Prophecy of the Toa, carvings of the Toa despite the Toa not arriving on the Island

Can you really tell me all this doesnt hint towards time travel that could be used to connect the generations?

Might be time travel or something of that sort, but why would Lego want to connect the generations? Why would Lego really want to muddy up G2 with G1, G1 being full of so much information and content that it would bloat up G2 and the story all over again, alienating new fans and making it hard for people to jump in at any point because of all this 10 year long history that is suddenly relevant again? I would doubt they'd connect the generations in any meaningful way as that just wouldn't do any service for the story. If anything it'd be a giant disservice to the story and would really only please the fans of the first generation, and even then not all of them, and I figure Lego's a lot more concerned with drawing in a new audience and keeping a new audience and making an accessible product for the next few years.

[the last chronicler]

In the end, I think the intent is to leave it open to interpretation. So the continued debate isn't doing anyone any favors. :P

You might be right, but at the same time the story hasn't even started yet. They may leave it up to interpretation, they may tell us it is a continuity at the lines end, they may tell us next month or reveal it all to be a hoax. Just because we don't know anything for sure now doesn't mean we won't know for sure later. Everything changes with time.

Might be time travel or something of that sort, but why would Lego want to connect the generations? Why would Lego really want to muddy up G2 with G1, G1 being full of so much information and content that it would bloat up G2 and the story all over again, alienating new fans and making it hard for people to jump in at any point because of all this 10 year long history that is suddenly relevant again? I would doubt they'd connect the generations in any meaningful way as that just wouldn't do any service for the story. If anything it'd be a giant disservice to the story and would really only please the fans of the first generation, and even then not all of them, and I figure Lego's a lot more concerned with drawing in a new audience and keeping a new audience and making an accessible product for the next few years.

Everyone assume LEGO has to rehash G1 for time travel to G2 to work. Well kids would buy Bionicle even with no understanding of the story whatsoever, and the same will occur with G2. At the surface Bionicle is essentially colorful superheroes fighting each other, something anyone can understand that without the gritty story details. For example, the giant robot fight at in 2010 is still an epic giant robot fight without knowing the Matoran universe is inside the GS robot. LEGO is smart enough to come up with a story that uses G1 without dead-weight details, and in fact time travel and memory wipe is an excellent starting point.

Edited December 28, 2014 by the last chronicler

[Quisoves Pugnat]

Of course, the Toa being summoned to Okoto from some other time or dimension does not equate to the Toa Mata/Nuva from the original story being summoned from their time and dimension to Okoto. While the repeated Vahi references, taken with the time motif, seem to me strongly to suggest the former, the latter is not supported by what we know of 2015's heroes. While there are obvious similarities (Kopaka, for example, seems more or less like his old self,) there are enough differences to suggest that these are different individuals. Onua is a sleepy and contemplative being, Gali lacks a sense of humor, Pohatu is afraid of the dark, Tahu is forgetful, Lewa controls both plantlife and air, and the Toa's powers are apparently unlocked by golden versions of their masks scattered throughout Okoto.

[Clone 01354 Productions]

The GSR wasnt noticeable for practically anyone in G1. The new series is apparently more child focused, as such it logically makes sense that they'd make the GSR event more easily noticeable.

I mean, laying this out with the basics;

Temple Of Time, Mask Of Time, Toa lacking memories, Focus on the past and future, Ancient Prophecy of the Toa, carvings of the Toa despite the Toa not arriving on the Island

Can you really tell me all this doesnt hint towards time travel that could be used to connect the generations?

Yes, I can tell you that. As someone said, the Vahi is used simply to show us "hey look, there will be a Mask of Time, and 'time' will be important". They do not mean "this is the exact same mask".

Really, they could go for a Terminator approach: The villain has total power, and so the Protectors in the future send the Toa back in time to stop him. They go after the three powerful masks before the villain gets hold of them, and stop him from coming to power.

[Quisoves Pugnat]

Really, they could go for a Terminator approach: The villain has total power, and so the Protectors in the future send the Toa back in time to stop him. They go after the three powerful masks before the villain gets hold of them, and stop him from coming to power.

Except that the Toa were summoned by the Protectors in the present, meaning that if there were any sort historical tampering, it would be in the form of the information on how to bring them to Okoto.

[the last chronicler]

Really, they could go for a Terminator approach: The villain has total power, and so the Protectors in the future send the Toa back in time to stop him. They go after the three powerful masks before the villain gets hold of them, and stop him from coming to power.

Yeah, that is a possible direction to take the clues. It's not about continuing the old plot necessarily, but the same Toa and the mask of time are huge hints towards a direct connection between the two Generations.

EDIT: This reminds me of when the leaks came out and there where some hold outs who favored believing Bionicle wasn't coming back, yet with multiple sources providing the same information it would be an statistically astronomical coincidence for the set codes, leaked images, and second set of leaks to be fake. It would require a world-wide conspiracy to be fake, yet people thought that was more reasonable then a return. This whole 'the Vahi means nothing at all' argument is edging on psychosis. It's also making me crazy so you guys just fight over this without me until this is resolved in 0-9 years.

Edited December 28, 2014 by the last chronicler

[Scarilian]

Yes, I can tell you that. As someone said, the Vahi is used simply to show us "hey look, there will be a Mask of Time, and 'time' will be important". They do not mean "this is the exact same mask"

If they didnt want it to be the same mask why would they go to so much effort to make it look exactly the same and plaster it everywhere... its getting us recognised with the image.

If it was just time travel they could have just said Temple Of Time or made a focus on an unspecified Mask Of Time without the Vahi images.

Really, they could go for a Terminator approach: The villain has total power, and so the Protectors in the future send the Toa back in time to stop him. They go after the three powerful masks before the villain gets hold of them, and stop him from coming to power.

This part will probably happen in 2016 with the idea of them going back in time to investigate the Ancient City back when it wasnt ancient... seems like its being hyped for story significance.

Might be time travel or something of that sort, but why would Lego want to connect the generations? Why would Lego really want to muddy up G2 with G1, G1 being full of so much information and content that it would bloat up G2 and the story all over again, alienating new fans and making it hard for people to jump in at any point because of all this 10 year long history that is suddenly relevant again? I would doubt they'd connect the generations in any meaningful way as that just wouldn't do any service for the story. If anything it'd be a giant disservice to the story and would really only please the fans of the first generation, and even then not all of them, and I figure Lego's a lot more concerned with drawing in a new audience and keeping a new audience and making an accessible product for the next few years.

Doesnt really need to be muddled, could simply be along the lines of 'G1' happened and then they went back in time to the distant past where G2 is happening' It wont be something they reveal immediately if it does happen, it'd be some sort of twist that would be revealed when G2 ends.

They did start work on G2 around 2012 so its likely the story was being worked on very shortly after the original storyline ended.

[Kalhiki]

Time is almost definitely going to play a major role in the story. The mentions of Time, the G1 Vahi Easter eggs, and even the mention of a "Mask of Time" all suggest so. But on the Mask of Time itself: is it a way to tie G1 and G2, or is it just a treat for older fans to say time will play a major role? Who knows?

But the inconsistencies between G1 and G2 (characters, setting, etc.) suggests that these are two separate continuities.

[the last chronicler]

But the inconsistencies between G1 and G2 (characters, setting, etc.) suggests that these are two separate continuities.

Setting mean nothing when the world can change drastically over time and space, and characters changes where made to favor the audience set sales, and is insignificant enough that time-travel, artistic license, or generations of change could explain it in-story. The clues for the mask connection are far more purposeful story-wise then anything that can be used as opposing evidence.

Edited December 28, 2014 by the last chronicler

[Kalhiki]

My biggest question is why? What is to be gained by bringing the G1 Toa from the past (or future, depending on when you think G2 is happening)? Wouldn't it be easier (and less confusing and complicated) to just make these new iterations of the characters in a new continuity?

And if the two generations are in the same continuity, how did we get from G1 to G2? Why is the G2 planet a giant ocean with a (as far as we know) single island? Why are there now six celestial bodies when Spherus Magna had none (or, no significant ones, at least)?

Why/how is Ekimu wearing the Mask of Creation: a Legendary Mask that can't be worn by anyone who doesn't have to power to wield it?

And something bugs me about what you're saying about character changes. Yes, time and evolution have affects on organisms. But you'd think that the Toa would at least retain their powers. And if not, you'd think their Masks would. Why are their elemental powers now only accessed by their masks?

Connecting the two continuities seems like it would open up a big can of worms that just seems unnecessary. Especially when the goal of G2 is to make it simpler and more accessible.

... Y'know, let's just say there's evidence supporting both ends of the argument, and we'll see how all this pans out.

[Mesonak]

Why are their elemental powers now only accessed by their masks?

In the interest of being fair to both sides, their different mask powers is certainly a pretty damning hole in the theory that I can't personally think of an explanation for. The change in personalities isn't really an issue, as it can be explained pretty simply by their amnesia affecting their personalities. The mask thing, though... I've got nothing.

[VBBN]

No, if anything evidence keeps piling up that its connected;

• The Skull Spiders being displayed on art in an almost identical way to the Visorak
  

....What does that possibly suggest about a continuity? That's like saying this is similar to how the Toa were posed in Bionicle G1, so they must be future versions of the Toa. It's a nod to the past if anything, or even a reuse of a previous set of vectors. I doubt this is part of a highly elaborate decade-breaking plot.

[Agent Fusion]

#ToaFactory