Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[SirPuddings]

What Javascript function specifically? That might not be accurate...

The command/function I used was "javascript:alert(document.lastModified)"

[Meiko]

The command/function I used was "javascript:alert(document.lastModified)"

On what page did you do that on? Since the site is dynamic, that specific page might not have been updated since then, but it still could have changed.

[SirPuddings]

On what page did you do that on? Since the site is dynamic, that specific page might not have been updated since then, but it still could have changed.

I did it on the specific page where the swf file is, aka here

[Aanchir]

Just from my point of view, say that this is a continuation, think that they release, I don't know, Helryx as a set. The set would be made of CCBS pieces. That set will really look out of place when put next to Axonn or Brutaka or any other OoMN set that got released. I can't see a continuation being viable.

A Turaga from 2001 would look just as out-of-place next to a Toa Mahri from 2007, so I honestly think this is the least of the LEGO Group's concerns. I have doubts in a continuation being the right option as well, but the sets have little to do with that.

[Meiko]

I did it on the specific page where the swf file is, aka here

That's 09/08/2014 in MM/DD/YYYY format, not DD/MM/YYYY, so it was last modified on September (9) 8th, not August (8) 9th.

[Quisoves Pugnat]

It's certainly doable, but it's bound to collapse on itself sooner or later.

That's a highly debatable statement. Provided the new Bionicle doesn't become obsessed with its own continuity, then I don't see why it couldn't offer up fresh storyline after fresh storyline. So it uses the same characters, that doesn't mean that you need to know their entire history to understand them sufficiently. Newcomers in 2008 certainly didn't need to know that Tahu once went mad after being poisoned by a Rahkshi, only that he was an elementally powered hero tasked with reawakening the Great Spirit Mata Nui. I certainly don't need to know a person's entire life-story to be friends with him.

The original Bionicle, I think, managed itself nicely that way, with the possible exception of 2005 The story accumulated, but you could appreciate the immediate story without knowing what came before it. The Bohrok were threatening to destroy the entire island of Mata Nui, the Barraki were battling the Toa Mahri for possession of a mask needed to save the universe, the Toa Nuva were trying to awaken Mata Nui, Glatorian were fighters on a desert world threatened by an army of enemies and saved by a mysterious alien being, etc. Further examination would yield that the Bohrok were distracting the Toa from awakening Mata Nui, that the Toa Mahri had already fought the Piraka for the Mask of Life, that the Toa Nuva had needed Mata Nui's life saved before they awakened him, that the mysterious savior of Bara Magna was once a planet-sized robot with sapient nano-technology inside of him. But you only needed the basics, what you'd get in the set advertisements. Regardless of whether the story became "bloated," it was never an issue for newcomers. I think that if the original story managed it for eight-and-a-half years, then so can a revived series.

Also, I'm curious as to how advocates of a continuity-reboot think that LEGO would manage such a thing, given that the Big Story Engine is out of the bag. I suppose that they could make the characters fully aware of Mata Nui's nature, but that might only serve to confuse newcomers.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[SirPuddings]

That's 09/08/2014 in MM/DD/YYYY format, not DD/MM/YYYY, so it was last modified on September (9) 8th, not August (8) 9th.

Goddammit, Americans and your weird date formats!

Edited September 9, 2014 by SirPuddings

[Meiko]

Goddammit, Americans and your weird date formats!

Wasn't my idea sorry. I use the non-American format though out of habit. Maybe it will rub off of me onto other Americans too.

[Dorek]

That's a highly debatable statement. Provided the new Bionicle doesn't become obsessed with its own continuity, then I don't see why it couldn't offer up fresh storyline after fresh storyline. So it uses the same characters, that doesn't mean that you need to know their entire history to understand them sufficiently. Newcomers in 2008 certainly didn't need to know that Tahu once went mad after being poisoned by a Rahkshi, only that he was an elementally powered hero tasked with reawakening the Great Spirit Mata Nui. I certainly don't need to know a person's entire life-story to be friends with him.

The original Bionicle, I think, managed itself nicely that way, with the possible exception of 2005 The story accumulated, but you could appreciate the immediate story without knowing what came before it. The Bohrok were threatening to destroy the entire island of Mata Nui, the Barraki were battling the Toa Mahri for possession of a mask needed to save the universe, the Toa Nuva were trying to awaken Mata Nui, Glatorian were fighters on a desert world threatened by an army of enemies and saved by a mysterious alien being, etc. Further examination would yield that the Bohrok were distracting the Toa from awakening Mata Nui, that the Toa Mahri had already fought the Piraka for the Mask of Life, that the Toa Nuva had needed Mata Nui's life saved before they awakened him, that the mysterious savior of Bara Magna was once a planet-sized robot with sapient nano-technology inside of him. But you only needed the basics, what you'd get in the set advertisements. Regardless of whether the story became "bloated," it was never an issue for newcomers. I think that if the original story managed it for eight-and-a-half years, then so can a revived series.

Also, I'm curious as to how advocates of a continuity-reboot think that LEGO would manage such a thing, given that the Big Story Engine is out of the bag. I suppose that they could make the characters fully aware of Mata Nui's nature, but that might only serve to confuse newcomers.

The problem is that it ALREADY became obsessed with its own continuity, which is why it was canceled. The story team has no need to weigh themselves down with what came before, because satisfying a group of people who previously represented a minute portion of the sales (and now will absolutely represent even LESS than that) is pretty pointless.

As for your last statement, again, reboots are different from remakes; a reboot does not mean they're going to do literally the same thing over again, so they'll have a whole new "big story engine" (or perhaps not at all and just more episodic stories).

[Clone 01354 Productions]

Wait, looking at the new mask, I have no clue what type of head will be used. It seems to narrow, especially around the mouth/cheeks, to be an existing mold. Here's to hoping that they are like Metru heads.

Also, since the large Mask has been drastically redesigned, then maybe some other pieces on the builds will be changed? Maybe they will include new, Bionicle-esque pieces? And there is still hope that they will give Lewa his smile.....

[Quisoves Pugnat]

The problem is that it ALREADY became obsessed with its own continuity, which is why it was canceled. The story team has no need to weigh themselves down with what came before, because satisfying a group of people who previously represented a minute portion of the sales (and now will absolutely represent even LESS than that) is pretty pointless.

Can you please elaborate on this statement? The story generally seems to me to have been shaped to fit the year's theme and set designs. I doubt that 2007 was set underwater because the story team said "You know, it makes perfect sense that after defeating Vezon, the Toa Inika should travel beneath the sea to find the Ignika all over again!" I rather imagine that 2007 was set underwater because the powers that be thought that customers would think it was cool.

As for your last statement, again, reboots are different from remakes; a reboot does not mean they're going to do literally the same thing over again, so they'll have a whole new "big story engine" (or perhaps not at all and just more episodic stories).

But then why make it Bionicle? Why not continue Hero Factory? Why not make an entirely new theme? If LEGO is calling the theme Bionicle, then it must have some connection to the original beyond the elemental abilities (which Hero Factory also had) and the mask motif. Make no mistake, I am not advocating that the new Bionicle start where "The Yesterday Quest" left off. I simply don't see what purpose ignoring the original eight-and-a-half years of story has if not to retell them. I'm not objectively opposed to doing that, mind you, but I don't see how it works from a marketing standpoint.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[Meiko]

Wait, looking at the new mask, I have no clue what type of head will be used. It seems to narrow, especially around the mouth/cheeks, to be an existing mold. Here's to hoping that they are like Metru heads.

Also, since the large Mask has been drastically redesigned, then maybe some other pieces on the builds will be changed? Maybe they will include new, Bionicle-esque pieces? And there is still hope that they will give Lewa his smile.....

Probably the 2013 Hero Factory head or something similarly designed. I was going to make an image showing how the mask could fit onto the head but since it was so small it was hard to make out so here's a screenshot of it zoomed in a lot: http://i.imgur.com/ZdzW7tY.png

[Clone 01354 Productions]

Oh, I see. Thanks! But it doesn't fit with all of the strange angles still......then again, neither would a Metru head.

[SirPuddings]

I get the feeling that they'll probably have new head pieces, the parts that stick out at the bottom make me uncomfortable.

[Dorek]

Can you please elaborate on this statement? The story generally seems to me to have shaped the story to fit the year's theme and set designs. I doubt that 2007 was set underwater because the story team said "You know, it makes perfect sense that after defeating Vezon, the Toa Inika should travel beneath the sea to find the Ignika all over again!" I rather imagine that 2007 was set underwater because the powers that be thought that customers would think it was cool.

Oh, sure, sets come before story, despite the overarching story bible (I'm never quite sure when the "land/sea/sky" idea was formalized, but anyway). It's the minutae that bogged the story down, and prevented it from being accessible to newer readers. The people paying attention to the story, statistically, were not the people buying the sets. So while plenty of money was being sunk into something that was ultimately non-profitable, there was little return investment on it. That obviously didn't make it less enjoyable, but it's one of the contributing factors to what happened to the line. Assuming they at least want to create some sort of entry-level story for prospective new buyers (and story-driven themes can and do succeed, i.e. Ninjago and Chima), revisiting a cumbersome, ten-years-in-the-making story is much more likely to alienate fans than attract them.

But then why make it Bionicle? Why not continue Hero Factory? Why not make an entirely new theme? If LEGO is calling the theme Bionicle, then it must have some connection to the original beyond the elemental abilities (which Hero Factory also had) and the mask motif. Make no mistake, I am not advocating that the new Bionicle start where "The Yesterday Quest" left off. I simply don't see what purpose ignoring the original eight-and-a-half years of story has if not to retell them. I'm not objectively opposed to doing that, mind you, but I don't see how it works from a marketing standpoint.

And I've asked that question in this chat before, believe me =P. The issue is, from a marketing standpoint (as elaborated by Greg in that quote earlier) the previous audience is not in a prime demographic for purchasing the sets (and in terms of the story consumers, were not ones to buy sets anyway). So they obviously want fresh blood for the line, and adhering to something that can only limit them in the future seems a poor way to go about it.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Dorek

[hollisbrick]

Interesting. I did prefer Bionicle over HF but I guess I'll reserve my judgement until I see pictures. What I really want. Return of though is exo force :P

[Aedai Rivin]

We're getting Bionicle instead of generic line #25 because the target audience, boys age 8-11, really don't care. They will get the one in their favorite color, or the one that looks coolest, or the one their parent gets for them. By making the theme Bionicle, it not only builds off a popular and easy to create story skeleton, but also ensures some extra sales from nostalgic teens/adults.

And a reboot is perfectly fine and good. Transformers has been doing it for decades, and no one ever complained about that.

[Quisoves Pugnat]

Oh, sure, sets come before story, despite the overarching story bible (I'm never quite sure when the "land/sea/sky" idea was formalized, but anyway). It's the minutae that bogged the story down, and prevented it from being accessible to newer readers. The people paying attention to the story, statistically, were not the people buying the sets. So while plenty of money was being sunk into something that was ultimately non-profitable, there was little return investment on it. That obviously didn't make it less enjoyable, but it's one of the contributing factors to what happened to the line. Assuming they at least want to create some sort of entry-level story for prospective new buyers (and story-driven themes can and do succeed, i.e. Ninjago and Chima), revisiting a cumbersome, ten-years-in-the-making story is much more likely to alienate fans than attract them.

You use the word "readers," which seems to suggest that LEGO expected most of those who purchased Bionicle sets to buy the books. I never got the impression that this was so. I'm curious. What minutiae are you referring to? Do you think that someone new to Bionicle would be confused by the comics? What evidence do you have that LEGO thought that the books would be purchased by a majority of Bionicle's audience?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions, it's simply that I never got the impression that Bionicle as seen in the books was anything but a fleshing out of Bionicle as marketed. And I don't see how Bionicle as marketed was terribly convoluted or obsessed with its own continuity. Certainly not when, in its final year, it featured a commercial stating that the Stars were "reawakened from centuries of slumber."

We're getting Bionicle instead of generic line #25 because the target audience, boys age 8-11, really don't care. They will get the one in their favorite color, or the one that looks coolest, or the one their parent gets for them. By making the theme Bionicle, it not only builds off a popular and easy to create story skeleton, but also ensures some extra sales from nostalgic teens/adults.

And a reboot is perfectly fine and good. Transformers has been doing it for decades, and no one ever complained about that.

But if the story skeleton is so easy to create, then why not apply it to a new theme? Mask-quests can be used in any number of stories. So why risk disappointing those in the target audience who actually read up on older LEGO themes?

And I don't really think that Transformers is a fair comparison. Transformers are, basically, transforming alien robots. Bionicle, basically, is slightly more complicated. Not labyrinthine, but not quite so simple.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[Robert8]

I like that new mask, It looks kinda tribal to me. That "lightning" makes me wonder....

I think we need BIONICLE emoticons

I kind of doubt it. BIONICLE got a small cameo in The LEGO Movie, which I think was enough. Some big current themes like Chima, Hero Factory, or Friends didn't even have any screen time. I think it would distract us from the normal minifigure stars (and MetalBeard, who was made for the film). That would be cool, though! You never know.

I was thinking on a new character, from the BIONICLE land/world

[Dorek]

You use the word "readers," which seems to suggest that LEGO expected most of those who purchased Bionicle sets to buy the books. I never got the impression that this was so. I'm curious. What minutiae are you referring to? Do you think that someone new to Bionicle would be confused by the comics? What evidence do you have that LEGO thought that the books would be purchased by a majority of Bionicle's audience?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions, it's simply that I never got the impression that Bionicle as seen in the books was anything but a fleshing out of Bionicle as marketed. And I don't see how Bionicle as marketed was terribly convoluted or obsessed with its own continuity. Certainly not when, in its final year, it featured a commercial stating that the Stars were "reawakened from centuries of slumber."

On the latter, there were plenty of instances where the promotional/marketing talk did not match up with the story product (and Hero Factory was a major offender of that), so that's more just to do with poor communication between certain description authors.

As for the books, the fact that they kept putting them out is evidence enough that they expected people to read them and that they had a decent enough following. Toward the end of the series, they started putting out less books (a canceled one in 2007, only two in 2009, etc) presumably due to declining sales, another sign that the series was losing steam. With the Hero Factory books, they managed a year and a half of the novels before the book series was unceremoniously cancelled due to poor sales.

Also with BIONICLE, they had copious amounts of spare names (which cost a pretty penny to run through legal checks), many of which only appeared in the books; at some point that was worth the money spent, but I imagine as the series went on it became less so.

And I don't really think that Transformers is a fair comparison. Transformers are, basically, transforming alien robots. Bionicle, basically, is slightly more complicated. Not labyrinthine, but not quite so simple.

I mean, anything can be reduced to a nice soundbite, really; the complexity is in its totality. Boneheads of voodoo island was element robots fighting evil animals; sounds pretty simple like that.

[dviddy]

And I don't really think that Transformers is a fair comparison. Transformers are, basically, transforming alien robots. Bionicle, basically, is slightly more complicated. Not labyrinthine, but not quite so simple.

Transformers lore is drastically more complicated, convoluted, and detailed than BIONICLE could have been at its very worst. There is a reason each new franchise, until recently, has been a new iteration, tied together via "alternate universes and also Unicron and the Thirteen sometimes". Check out the TFwiki sometime. To be fair, Transformers has had an extra fifteen to twenty years on BIONICLE, but the comparison is far more apt than you want it to be.

[Logan McOwen]

I'm looking at the new mask. That dark spot above the 'mouth' area... Looks kind of like an injection hole, like we saw on so many Kanohi in the past. Could it mean that this is actually a mask, and not a helmet? I sure as h*ck hope so.

[Mandate]

Transformers lore is drastically more complicated, convoluted, and detailed than BIONICLE could have been at its very worst. There is a reason each new franchise, until recently, has been a new iteration, tied together via "alternate universes and also Unicron and the Thirteen sometimes". Check out the TFwiki sometime. To be fair, Transformers has had an extra fifteen to twenty years on BIONICLE, but the comparison is far more apt than you want it to be.

You just stated the main point of why BIONICLE was cancelled: the Transformers universe/s were multiple iterations that existed alongside each other. You didn't need to know what happened in the 5 billion different universes, you could pick one and stick with it. Arguably LEGO is the same (except plot has only recently come into play withing the last 15 years, and deep plots even more recently), multiple different universes connected loosely. Some of these universes exist twice, even thrice within the grand scheme. While there is no actual grand scheme such as the Marvel Cinematic Universe, they're all connected regardless. Castle exists within Clutch Powers, the LEGO Movie, its own plot, etc. BIONICLE has a few alternate universes inside itself anyway. Kids want to learn about what they love. If you give kids a cool toyline, and a good plot to go with it too (throw in some collectables, as well) it's a recipe for success. Give it a convoluted story and it's a recipe for disaster. Transformer's plots are disconnected from each other and linked barely, convolution from one franchise doesn't affect the others. It's why BIONICLE's ultimate failure didn't affect Power Miner's success, it's why the (somewhat) failure of Tangled didn't affect the MCU. They're separate instances and universes, they cross over in rare (never in the case of Disney and Marvel, even though Disney owns Marvel) cases and only the fanboys/girls actually remember.

EDIT: If BIONICLE were its own toyline you'd be right. But BIONICLE was a single continuous story. But had BIONICLE been its own toy company and made sub-universes, eg; Hero Factory, Ultrabuilds, Soviet Russia-reversal meme where the Masks wear Toa and molten magma surfs on boards on seas of robots, you might be correct. But there's a reason why Transformers G1 doesn't exist anymore, and while it's not just due to lore it's unsurprising to see why Hasbro has only done a reboot rather than a continuation. The source material is too old, too far disconnected from the new variant.

Edited September 9, 2014 by JayWalker

[SirPuddings]

I'm looking at the new mask. That dark spot above the 'mouth' area... Looks kind of like an injection hole, like we saw on so many Kanohi in the past. Could it mean that this is actually a mask, and not a helmet? I sure as h*ck hope so.

I'm certainly hoping that they are indeed masks this time

To people who say the discovery that Gatanui made is "technically hacking", I have one thing to say: No.

This is hacking as much as leaving your facebook logged in while your mate is over and they make a status that says "I smell like poop xD". AKA, it's not hacking at all

[GK733]

I'm looking at the new mask. That dark spot above the 'mouth' area... Looks kind of like an injection hole, like we saw on so many Kanohi in the past. Could it mean that this is actually a mask, and not a helmet? I sure as h*ck hope so.

if it connects from front, then axle hole in the head will be on it's "nose"...