Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Lord-Vorahk]

I loved Ignition too.

[Lind Whisperer]

You've clearly never been to the bionicle subreddit.

I shudder slightly to imagine what the 4chan Bionicle board is doing right now...(I'm presuming they have one, never joined and don't intend to.) Of course, having said that, I'm probably their next random digital attack target.

[TheGreatSpirit]

I shudder slightly to imagine what the 4chan Bionicle board is doing right now...(I'm presuming they have one, never joined and don't intend to.) Of course, having said that, I'm probably their next random digital attack target.

Not all of 4chan is /b/, you know...

[King of Nynrah]

I shudder slightly to imagine what the 4chan Bionicle board is doing right now...(I'm presuming they have one, never joined and don't intend to.) Of course, having said that, I'm probably their next random digital attack target.

It's actually pretty much full of Genwunners. Half the discussion there is about nostalgia (read: 01-era) stuff, and the other half how cancerous and toxic a certain other online Bionicle community is (not EB).

Back on topic though, one day to go until the big reveal! Anyone got any idea what time of day they usually make big announcements?

[Grima]

Not all of 4chan is /b/, you know...

no, but a good 90% of 4chan is terrible people

[Clone 01354 Productions]

Please stop speaking on behalf of everyone.

I for one quite enjoyed the tone of that year.

The characters who we saw transformed into the Toa Inika were already competent soldiers, inventors, athletes, et cetera as Matoran. They were used to defending themselves with weapons, not powers - and they continued to do so. (Plus, their powers were used when it counted, if not as frequently as some people might've liked - Matoro froze the chamber to knock out Umbra, for example.)

You may think so, but there is a large handful of those who hate '06, far more than those who like it. Sure, it made sense (LIKE. I. SAID), but it just didn't fit with the feel. But at least you pulled out one example of Matoro using his powers, whereas the Mata and Metru years were full of elemental power-usage. And at least the Glatorian era had an excuse for why they lacked the powers; Inika had no excuse.

Inika made sense as to why they had weapons, but why they didn't use elemental powers is beyond me. Explain THAT.

Edited September 18, 2014 by LN-01354

[Chro]

yo, can we not have a 4chan debate

thank you <3

I predict LOSS's abdomen thing will have a function that spring-launches the smaller skull spiders.

You may think so, but there is a large handful of those who hate '06, far more than those who like it. Sure, it made sense (LIKE. I. SAID), but it just didn't fit with the feel. But at least you pulled out one example of Matoro using his powers, whereas the Mata and Metru years were full of elemental power-usage. And at least the Glatorian era had an excuse for why they lacked the powers; Inika had no excuse.

Inika made sense as to why they had weapons, but why they didn't use elemental powers is beyond me. Explain THAT.

I'm not saying that everyone likes it, either. That'd be hypocritical of me. I was simply saying that there are mixed opinions.

Again, I was trying to tell you that I personally thought that it still fit the feel of the story, which you disagreed with even though we both thought that it made sense. :P

Why didn't they use their powers? Well, most obviously, they weren't accustomed to using their powers - they didn't really even know how to use their powers. And in most situations, they didn't even need to use their powers. Like I said, they were used to using weapons - they were better at that, they had no elemental power experience. This is backed up by the fact that, later on, they did use their powers quite a bit (in 2007, and in the 2008-2010 serials), because by that point, they knew what they were doing.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Chro

[Grima]

You really shouldn't speak for everyone, even those who also disliked '06. Your reasons for disliking it are entirely different from mine, mine being that 2006 was when Bionicle started plunging into being "dark and gritty" and really mishandled it.

[Clone 01354 Productions]

^^That function would be absolutely epic.

Edited September 18, 2014 by LN-01354

[Aanchir]

Not quite; it wouldn't have the thing that bugged me the most about Hero Factory, its central message: heroes are something you can create, not something you prove with deeds.

BIONICLE was no better about that. Toa in the BIONICLE universe are literally defined as heroes. Matoran aren't selected as Toa because they've proven themselves in some way — they're selected by the seemingly-arbitrary force of "destiny". The reason why some Matoran are destined to become Toa and others are not is never explained. The Toa Mata, Toa Metru, and Toa Inika all had to prove themselves as heroes after they had been chosen for the role, not before. Only Takua actually had to prove himself to become a Toa, and proving himself in that case was as simple as not running away from his duty, something plenty of other Matoran like Jaller had already mastered.

How is magically granting a character with the body of a hero before they have an opportunity to prove themselves in any meaningful way any better than creating a character with the body of a hero and then asking them to live up to the name? Sure, Hero Factory heroes don't get an opportunity to prove themselves before they're created (generally, nobody in any story or in real life ever does). But after they're created, they still have to prove themselves. That's what separates rookie heroes like Furno or Evo from fully-fledged heroes like Stormer. Von Nebula exists as proof that not all Hero Factory heroes have what it takes to deserve their title, just as Nidhiki demonstrates the same in BIONICLE.

Also, for what it's worth, the Toa Mata were created as Toa for the express role of being heroes, the same as any Hero Factory character. That doesn't make their role as heroes any less legitimate, because as with all Hero Factory rookie heroes they had to prove themselves through both training exercises and actual missions.

[Grima]

idk, even with the meaning of the name Toa, it never seemed like becoming a Toa was seen as automatically becoming a hero. It was more like a Toa was just a more powerful version of a Matoran, and it was what they did after becoming a Toa that made them a hero. After all, Toa like Nidhiki and Tuyet were hardly heroes, yet they were still Toa.

Yes, Von Nebula and Core Hunter combat that a little, but as far as the overall story goes, all they are is glitches in the system. Only Heroes are ever heroes, and they are created to be such. A vast majority of them end up being just that, too. They don't need to prove they're heroic, only that they can handle themselves in battle; THAT is why they're rookies. If they needed to prove they were heroic and good at heart, would Von Nebula have ended up on a mission at all?

Bionicle wasn't always perfect about it, but it wasn't as bad as Hero Factory, IMO, which literally has the tagline "we build heroes".

[Chro]

Aside from the obvious literal interpretation, I always took that like the phrase "[something] builds character"

[Aanchir]

Yes, Von Nebula and Core Hunter combat that a little, but as far as the overall story goes, all they are is glitches in the system. Only Heroes are ever heroes, and they are created to be such. A vast majority of them end up being just that, too. They don't need to prove they're heroic, only that they can handle themselves in battle; THAT is why they're rookies.

No, not at all. Going on actual field missions is a big part of what rookies like Von Ness, Stormer, and Furno had to do to prove themselves. As you point out, simulated training exercises can only prove so much. They test your skills, not your heroic resolve. With that said, it was established in the story that the mission Stormer and Von Ness went on was not supposed to be a major crisis like it turned out to be. Neither Stormer nor Von Ness would likely have been trusted to know what to do when presented with such a serious threat. Stormer was able to rise to the challenge, but Von Ness was not. He was willing to save himself at the expense of his team leader, something Stormer would never consider.

For Hero Factory heroes, proving themselves is about WAY more than showing they can handle themselves in battle. It's about being able to make the right decision at the right time, being able to work together with their teammates, showing courage in the face of danger, knowing WHY they do what they do, and earning the trust of the general populace. This is just as true of real-life heroes like firefighters and other emergency personnel as it is in the Hero Factory storyline.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Aanchir

[Grima]

idk to me the big difference between how Hero Factory and Bionicle handle it is that in Bionicle, save for the Mata, becoming a Toa is about giving someone with the potential to be a hero the means to do so. Meanwhile, in Hero Factory, what they do is manufacture what it is that gives you that potential, which is what doesn't sit right with me.

[Lind Whisperer]

Sorry, not trying to cause an issue, I was just trying to make a joke.

Meanwhile, in Hero Factory, what they do is manufacture what it is that gives you that potential, which is what doesn't sit right with me.

Agreed. "We build heroes" is possibly one of the most flawed concepts ever released as a toy slogan. Now, if it was "We build sentient robots that choose of their own digital free will to be heroes*," no issue. But when you tell kids that heroes are just another thing off an assembly line...that's just wrong, no matter which way you look at it.

*I get that that's too long for advertising.

[Mesonak]

I'll chime in on the discussion from slightly earlier to say the Ignition Trilogy is my favorite sequence from BIONICLE (sets AND story).

But that's just me

[arc]

We're not starting the, "bionicle vs. Hero factory" debate once again are we? What happened to making peace? http://eli-j-brony.deviantart.com/art/Furno-Congragulates-Tahu-and-Bionicle-s-Comeback-482552655

Edited September 18, 2014 by arc

[Grima]

That image is laughably poorly-made.

I don't see why I'm not allowed to dislike it. I merely made one statement, not a debate. My dislike isn't rooted in nostalgia for Bionicle, merely my own tastes.

[The Kumquat Alchemist]

Agreed. "We build heroes" is possibly one of the most flawed concepts ever released as a toy slogan. Now, if it was "We build sentient robots that choose of their own digital free will to be heroes*," no issue. But when you tell kids that heroes are just another thing off an assembly line...that's just wrong, no matter which way you look at it.

*I get that that's too long for advertising.

My problem with Hero Factory is similar to yours with that slogan; thankfully Aanchir has displayed how little meaning that slogan has, otherwise my thoughts of HF's story would be even lower.

My issue stems from Hero Factory's implied lack of care for sentient life. I first noticed this when reading up on the minimal story material for Ordeal of Fire, in which fully sentient "mining robots" raid a fuel plant. This was triggered when Fire Lord, the leader of the rebellious 'bots, had his "circuits fused" by new fuel absorption technology, given to the mining 'bots in the name of further efficiency. Eventually driven to complete madness, he and other similarly damaged miners went on a crime spree, culminating in said fuel raid where the Heroes defeat them.

Perhaps this is just my headcanon seeing inhumane treatment where there is none, but to me, it looks like in this universe it's A-OK to create unnecessarily sentient machines for the purpose of menial labour, and then install potentially harmful upgrades, all for the sake of efficiency, all while the "Hero" factory stands by and does nothing, so long as danger doesn't threaten all the other sentient robots who have civil rights.

Do the software engineers in this universe not know how to avoid throwing in a fully-fledged consciousness every time they make an AI for something as simple as a mining robot? I can't just write them off as being philosophical zombies; if they were, they'd be destroyed and scrapped, not imprisoned, as shown in Breakout. I'm not denying that the Heroes needed to stop Fire Lord and his gang; it's just that the setup itself is utterly unacceptable.

Throw in the mass murder in Invasion From Below, and Hero Factory loses some of my respect; don't take this is a hate rant, I thought the Heroes themselves are alright folks, up until IFB.

Sources:

http://hf.biosector0...ki/Mining_Robot

http://hf.biosector0.../wiki/Fire_Lord

Edited September 18, 2014 by The Kumquat Alchemist

[Grima]

Don't forget when Evo wanted to destroy an entire nest of babies just because one member of their species was a criminal.

[Still Raindrop]

Don't forget when Evo wanted to destroy an entire nest of babies just because one member of their species was a criminal.

I remember being surprised by that one--particularly since, if I remember correctly, Furno stopped him because he might wake some up before killing them all, not because there was any moral issue.

[Dorek]

That was an apparently VERY last minute plot change (like, several days before the game was supposed to go online) overriding what was otherwise a peaceful resolution. Not Hero Factory's finest moment, sure, but BIONICLE wasn't all roses either.

POINT BEING let's not have a lack of Gen1ers at the expense of people getting all snooty about BIONICLE being better than Hero Factory. It's a shame the two lines apparently can't coexist, although that would probably encourage further unfavorable comparisons of the two anyway.

[The Kumquat Alchemist]

It's a shame the two lines apparently can't coexist, although that would probably encourage further unfavorable comparisons of the two anyway.

When I first heard rumours of BIONICLE's return, I hoped HF would continue into 2015 alongside it, becoming a more System-based theme that would use the IFB Hero minifigures. It's a pity that won't happen. I can only hope that we'll see BIONICLE playsets that make use of similar robofig skeletons. Otherwise, the IFB robofigs are just wasted potential.

Edited September 18, 2014 by The Kumquat Alchemist

[Still Raindrop]

(For the record, I was a Bionicle fan in 2001, and that year is still one of my favorites, but I also like Hero Factory. Sorry--didn't mean to get off topic.)

Thinking of Friday's reveal, I hope we get more than a picture of Tahu. Maybe a group shot in different poses, or a little bit of story info. Tahu is perhaps the most appealing, but he's also the one we've seen the clearest. I'm expecting just a picture of Tahu and an official announcement, of course, but something else would be nice.

Also, the more I look at Lewa and the Jungle Protector, the more I like that color scheme--it feels very plant-like to me.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Mariko

[King of Nynrah]

I just had a thought. While the IFB sets contained minifigures, most of the rest of each set was built using CCBS parts instead of System parts. Does this mean that Bionicle playsets could return, and if so, they would be mostly CCBS-based?