Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[dviddy]

Eeeeh, that really comes across as a bizarre idea, especially since you don't have a problem with Protectors and Masters being so disparately sized. We've already established in universe, from the outset that intelligent robot beings with elemental powers can be of vastly different sizes and proportions, so a dude or two who outsize the Toa a good bit aren't that out of place. Especially for big bad villain characters where fitting through the bathroom doors is sort of a writing non-issue. And it's a common, well-used design trope, and for good reason!

I mean, following that logic, the Masters/Toa don't fit in on Okoto/Mata-Nui, often being twice or three times the size of the denizens of said island. Onua looks like you could fit two protectors in his chest alone.

I guess, you do you, but I just don't get it.

The Toa in the original media were legendary, nearly god-like beings. Sure, this got retconned, but the size disparity there made sense. It also fit the children-> adult-> elder role well. The Toa were often seen as not quite fitting in the spaces, because they weren't designed for beings that size. Adding in characters another double to even larger than them stretches my suspension of disbelief. The world we have been given has never seemed designed for those sort if characters. Especially considering we know now that the original story took place in a contained, closed system with finite space.

As for "common trope", not really? There is a reason giants are used very infrequently even in fantasy media. It breaks the boundaries of the world-building. There is a reason the term "titans" started being used- originally it was used to SOLELY describe the three larger sets in 2005. Their battle was the Clash of the Titans. The fans unfortunately latched on to the term as a being descriptor and it stuck. But the term was meant to define something as special, legendary, powerful. But it became generic in a world that was never built for that size to be generic.

Sorry that seems weird to you- I'm a fan on consistent, well written storytelling and purposeful design, and the large sets like Taka08 are not those things. I'm hoping anything we get like that is more consistent with the world-building and storytelling this time. Not having "make it up as I go" Greg on the team is a great start.

[Kalhiki]

Giant villains are fine, but I think you can go overboard with it. A villain can be twelve inches tall if you want them to look super-duper-imposing, but they don't necessarily need to be. I think the 2003 Makuta set was a good example of how you can make a character look formidable without necessarily inflating their height to ridiculous levels. In a non-villainous example, so is Axonn — he was no taller than a Toa Inika, but still felt like a "titan" by comparison.

And I think it also kind of depends on what kind of role you want the villain in question to have. Sometimes making a villain twice the height of the heroes can even be counterproductive if you want to emphasize character traits other than the villain's brute strength. Look at Marvel Comics as an example. Galactus is huge because it is integral to his character. Loki, on the other hand, is NOT huge, and it would be a bit silly if he DID constantly tower over the other characters. His key character traits are being conniving and manipulative — making him a colossus wouldn't help to emphasize any of those traits.

The David vs. Goliath archetype is an extremely valuable storytelling tool, but there are consequences if you abuse it. The storyline can become repetitive. The size difference can begin to lose its dramatic impact if your heroes are regularly defeating villains three times their size — fans will no longer expect the larger villain to have the edge in a fight. And what's more, you don't want to be in a situation where fans expect all major villains to be huge, or else your hands will be tied if you ever want to introduce a major villain who isn't huge — fans will wonder why the villain looks so wimpy compared to previous threats the heroes have faced.

Your Ninjago example definitely has some merit, but keep in mind that the Overlord was a bit of an exception. Most major villain characters in the series (Samukai, Pythor, Lord Garmadon, Cyrus Borg, and even the Overlord before his final metamorphosis) were only slightly larger than the heroes at most. Bringing out the big guns is generally something that should be done sparingly.

You bring up good points, especially with the storytelling. A character's size should reflect their personality and role. Makuta's Matoran appearance in MNOG is still one of my favorite incarnations of the character and he was a munchkin. I guess it all depends on how the villains are handled.

Personally, I don't think I'll ever tire of the David vs. Goliath archetype. I just have a thing for big villains, but I do understand it may get annoyingly repetitive for some people.

Also, I want to point out that in the animation, Makuta was seen to grow after he put on the MoUP (though he regained his original size when Ekimu knocked the mask off, so I'm not sure how much merit this has). If Makuta was, say, slightly taller than the Protectors, his increased size would only put him around the height of the larger Toa.

[Dorek]

Sorry that seems weird to you- I'm a fan on consistent, well written storytelling and purposeful design, and the large sets like Taka08 are not those things. I'm hoping anything we get like that is more consistent with the world-building and storytelling this time. Not having "make it up as I go" Greg on the team is a great start.

I'm still not seeing what the problem with 2008 Takanuva is; his size was never used as anything story-breaking, it fit with a pre-established canonical explanation (why the Av-Matoran are of a larger size than most others), and I very much doubt Greg had anything to do with deciding what type of set Takanuva would be. It was just used as a counterpoint to the large villain sets of the previous half of the year.

[Toa Eljay]

Sorry that seems weird to you- I'm a fan on consistent, well written storytelling and purposeful design, and the large sets like Taka08 are not those things. I'm hoping anything we get like that is more consistent with the world-building and storytelling this time. Not having "make it up as I go" Greg on the team is a great start.

I would like to take a moment to inquire about 08 Takanuva real quick, and his storyline size/consistency. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it established before we saw 08 Takanuva that Av-Matoran were given a size increase in Karda Nui, and as such, the same held true for Takanuva? That seems rather consistent to me. Also not something I think Greg decided since it was main storyline material.

I don't really mind seeing larger bad guy sets so long as they're well built. It's almost been a staple of Bionicle to have it that way, at least since the Bahrag. If we get another Tuma or Irnakk, though, that may be... Problematic.

-Eljay

[VBBN]

My favorite part about big villains.

Now in all seriousness, my biggest problem with large figures like 08 Takky and 09 Steroid Nui, is they never had anyone to properly fight. No giant Teridax or anything.

People keep comparing it to Transformers, and to further back up DeeVee's claims of why it's not an issue in Transformers, they don't have this problem. For every Autobot, there is usually a Decepticon to counter them. Primus to Unicron, Scorponok to Metroplex/Fort Max, etc. It's cool to have a big figure, but when it comes down to it, I would almost always prefer there be someone to face off against.

So for the summer wave, I really hope we get some villains that are equal in size to the Toa, to give them a proper counterpart. LoSS just...fits into a different league.

[Dorek]

People keep comparing it to Transformers, and to further back up DeeVee's claims of why it's not an issue in Transformers, they don't have this problem. For every Autobot, there is usually a Decepticon to counter them. Primus to Unicron, Scorponok to Metroplex/Fort Max, etc. It's cool to have a big figure, but when it comes down to it, I would almost always prefer there be someone to face off against.

So for the summer wave, I really hope we get some villains that are equal in size to the Toa, to give them a proper counterpart. LoSS just...fits into a different league.

Well, part of the thinking was always that the underdog needs to win; it's a lot more heroic if you come out of a fight against someone that much bigger than you. So even when you have a larger hero figure for the sets (08 Takanuva, Rockal XL, etc) they don't get to do anything meaningful with their size, and the big bads are taken down by smaller beings.

I'll give it to you that the LOSS is an odd first wave villain, but as a non-humanoid, it makes more sense. Ultimately, I think it will be nice to see some larger villain humanoids in the summer.

[Toa of Gallifrey]

I've always liked the really large heroes and villains, but I prefer them to appear as the story arc draws to a close. That's why I really, really like 08. We have the Toa Nuva and a super-sized Takanuva battling the Makuta at the core of the universe, which made for a great climax to the arc that had been growing over the years. As much as I enjoy an underdog/David and Goliath archetype, I really love the two big guys duking it out, which is why the battle between Rocka XL and Aldous is one of my favorite moments in Hero Factory.

[Lord-Vorahk]

The other thing you can do with an oversized character is make up for one side being outnumbered. Myself and a friend finished a 49-chapter Sonic-based darkfic the other day. THe final battle had five heroes against one villain (WHo was an absolutely mad robot). If the villain had stayed at normal size, then our heroes would've just dogpiled him, since while he could've killed one or two of them, all five of them would've slaughtered him. So we made him bigger. He creates a new body for himself, basically a molded metal shell filled with energy (Basically, he became a Makuta), which is three times the size of an adult Mobian. And with that size, he was able to fight all of them to a standstill until they shredded all of his wings and broke one of his legs.

If we had a giant Makuta, to use him as an example, then he could convincingly fight the heroes all at once. If he was the same size as them, then they'd just overwhelm him in a physical battle.

[Clone 01354 Productions]

Man, I went down a TRU aisle today, and when I thought I saw new Bionicle sets....Hero Factory. How I made the mistake, I have no idea.

I really thought that they would decide to release them earlier, but instead, it looks like they will come in January.

[Dorek]

I wouldn't be surprised to see some retailers break street date some time in December, but November tends to be pushing it. They can't actually advertise these things for the holiday shopping season (such as Black Friday), so it's somewhat pointless anyway.

[Mandate]

For every Autobot, there is usually a Decepticon to counter them. Primus to Unicron, Scorponok to Metroplex/Fort Max, etc.

What about Cybertron? I don't recall it ever getting a "counter"?

[Rayskull]

What about Cybertron? I don't recall it ever getting a "counter"?

Cybertron is dormant Primus, his counter is Unicron

[Mandate]

Cybertron is dormant Primus, his counter is Unicron

Oh... right, I had forgotten about Unicron. The giant planet thing that swallowed up Megatron turning him into Galvatron after Starscream kicked him out of a spaceship (before returning just in time for Starscream's coronation). Haven't done anything related to Transformers in ages. I blame Michael Bay.

[Rayskull]

I blame Michael Bay.

Me too

[Kamen Rider Kiva]

Does anybody know when the Bionicle site is going to update (I'd assume some time around the beginning of December, but I'm not sure. :P)? I'm quite intrigued to see what the finalised site will look like. ^-^

[Kalhiki]

Does anybody know when the Bionicle site is going to update (I'd assume some time around the beginning of December, but I'm not sure. :P)? I'm quite intrigued to see what the finalised site will look like. ^-^

Considering the sets officially release on January 1st, I'd imagine sometime around then. End of December/beginning of January is my best guess.

[Tazakk]

Considering the sets officially release on January 1st, I'd imagine sometime around then. End of December/beginning of January is my best guess.

Possibly even later - I remember many a year waiting for the new BIONICLE site to go live for quite some time after the new sets had gone into circulation. The 2004 site went live in February.

[Kamen Rider Kiva]

Possibly even later - I remember many a year waiting for the new BIONICLE site to go live for quite some time after the new sets had gone into circulation. The 2004 site went live in February.

Wow, I think I'd go a bit insane if that happened. XD The wait is already killing me right now. :P

[Gatanui]

Things seem to be happening on the site right now. Yesterday the main picture was distorted and now the bios are gone. Yay.

[Kalhiki]

Hopefully since Bionicle's making its big return, and Lego seems to hyping it up so much, they'd be more punctual with the site launch.

@Gatanui: That's weird. I wonder what happened?

[Gatanui]

Who knows. Maybe things are actually happening and we could get a website update on December 1st?

[Kamen Rider Kiva]

Woah, I just typed in Bioncle.com & it brought up a blank, white page. Anyone else getting this? O.O

EDIT: Took a screenshot of it:

Edited November 27, 2014 by Kamen Rider Kiva

[Kamen Rider Kiva]

Welp, they updated it. ^-^

[Tazakk]

Woah, I just typed in Bioncle.com & it brought up a blank, white page. Anyone else getting this? O.O

EDIT: Took a screenshot of it:

Yeah, this is happening for me as well. Intermittent between it and the full page sans the characters, at that, so presumably there's something going on on LEGO's end.

EDIT: Wait, updated as in fix-updated? or rolled-out-the-full-site updated? The site's still down for me.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Tazakk

[Kamen Rider Kiva]

Yeah, this is happening for me as well. Intermittent between it and the full page sans the characters, at that, so presumably there's something going on on LEGO's end.

EDIT: Wait, updated as in fix-updated? or rolled-out-the-full-site updated? The site's still down for me.

Here's what I mean:

It's glorious!!!

Edited November 27, 2014 by Kamen Rider Kiva