Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Faefrost]

If this rumor is true then chances are as I asked above that a lot of it has to do with how good of a reception the Bionacle stuff has had on Netflix. It's a nostalgic property that falls into that same sort of area as Transformers. I would not be surprised to see a new line tied into a new Cartoon Network show. Why not someone has revived and repackaged pretty much every other 90's cartoon and toy property.

Besides Michael Bay needs a new project after TMNT!

[Dorek]

I was talking about Micheal Bay with someone earlier and what a BIONICLE movie directed by him would look like.

I'd totally be okay with it :U

I WILL SAY THIS: Those at TTV that have had a conversation with the original leaker have not had any prior experience with him in the past. SUPPOSEDLY he has leaked stuff before but none of us have actually been privy to this information. Our faith in the legitimacy of the leaks stems from the conversation we had in regards to the fear of losing his job over the leak (the picture with the set numbers that strong attempts were made to get removed). Obviously not concrete proof, but we believe that the person is legitimate solely due to his emotions and mannerisms when confronted about the subject.

TLDR; TTV thinks he's legit, there's no conspiracy

And it's certainly not my intent to call him a liar, but the sketchiness of these "sources" in general always works against them. None of the pieces of evidence I've seen thus far have been convincing (maybe a few, but for the sake of my point...); as I mentioned, my belief on the status of BIONICLE returning or not has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it does (duh), but blurry pics and someone claiming they have something while simultaneously not being able to offer any concrete proof does not make a compelling argument.

If and when BIONICLE returns, I'll be as happy as the rest of you lot; I'm just of a more skeptical mindset is all =P.

(also, I still have the Russian article open if that's of any relevance, although I think it's been copied out earlier in the topic)

Edited July 16, 2014 by Dorek

[dviddy]

This thread went from regular discussion about potential leaks to tumblr-like arguing, mainly over the amount of females in Bionicle. I cannot imagine how silly this board must look to the rest of Eurobricks (and the Bionicle community as a whole) right now.

It is okay, EB looks silly itself to a lot of LEGO fans, and has its own problems with sexist nonsense. And you are right- the rest of the greater community of bionicle fans thinks this discussion us dumb- because it shouldn't be a discussion. Bionicle had a problematic gender ratio that was harmful to female fans and purposefully undermined its own rules to avoid adding female characters.

Dorek: really? Overly hostile and attacky? Come on. This conversation is ridiculous and over-the-top. The moment someone throws a loaded term like "SJW" into the mix, they have made their comment into a near-parody. Over-the-top snark is warranted and deserved. And again, I'll point out you would rather police an arbitrary tone distinction than deal with a salient point, and that is infuriating. I know way too many folks who are way too turned off by EB'a boys club mentality to wade into this themselves, but they are no less fans than you or I just because they are women, they deserve to have their voice heard, and they are angry and hurt, and you are pretending to be a voice of reason while invalidating their experiences. Frankly I expect better.

I am rather tired if the idea that talking about gender in BIONICLE is silly. When the line returns, and I fully believe it will, and I fully anticipate a reboot based on the info we have thus far, I dearly hope for the removal of mono-gendered tribes. The removal of the no romance policy. While it may have been marketed to boys, nothing says the new line has to be, and this is an opportunity to truly listen to fans. The inclusion of female characters doesn't have to be a sales hindrance- I just finished Avatar: TLA for the first time, and I am still in awe if the incredible wealth if female characters. There is no reason our franchise couldn't do that.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Darth Vader

[Dorek]

It's that shouting match mentality that IS detrimental to the point you were making. I'd love a salient discussion on how BIONICLE (and LEGO as a whole, if it's relevant) should be more gender inclusive and representative. It should be. Nobody is disputing that fact.

But the holier-than-thou attitude is not conducive TO said discussion. If we want to have a mature discussion about it, we should be mature about it. Condescension and snark do not contribute to a mature discussion.

Let's start over: I, personally, didn't think BIONICLE's gender divide was bad on its face, but the execution was terrible. Among other things, they deliberately tied certain traits based on the element to the gender, and they didn't include nearly enough female genders.

Now you.

[TheGreatSpirit]

Can you guys just make the female stuff its own topic? This is for 2015 constraction discussion, not whining about the lack of female characters in Bionicle, and I'm fairly certain many of us are just sick of it by now.

EDIT: Changed "crap" to "stuff" because people kept looking at it in the wrong context.

Edited July 16, 2014 by TheGreatSpirit

[Loki]

Can you guys just make the female crap its own topic? This is for 2015 constraction discussion, not whining about the lack of female characters in Bionicle, and I'm fairly certain many of us are just sick of it by now.

If it bothers you so much, then don't read it? It's completely germane to the topic at hand and does have a valid place of discussion. You aren't the topic arbiter, where we all follow what you specifically want to talk about and ignore what other people want to talk about in relation to the return of a franchise that others adore. Quite disrespectful, really. :/

@Dorek: Invalidating other individuals feelings and opinions and desires for this line, presuming it does return and all is true, is a lot more disrespectful and rude than replying to it with snark and making an example of why it's really a crappy thing to invalidate others' opinions and hopes for a line's return. And as for someone criticizing condescension and a holier-than-thou attitude... er... read what you wrote?

Edited July 16, 2014 by Loki

[Maqdaddio]

I too would look forward to seeing Lego improve upon it's less than amicable gender ratios. Not only from the standpoint of Bionicle, but from story-driven lines as a whole.

[TheGreatSpirit]

If it bothers you so much, then don't read it? It's completely germane to the topic at hand and does have a valid place of discussion. You aren't the topic arbiter, where we all follow what you specifically want to talk about and ignore what other people want to talk about in relation to the return of a franchise that others adore. Quite disrespectful, really. :/

The topic is about 2015 Rumors & Discussion. I fail to see how this female character stuff has anything to do with 2015 constraction themes. Besides, all it has done is create flame wars. Reply all you want, but as for me, I'm done with the female character stuff. Can we please go back to discussing the leaked images/names

Anyways, back on topic. Do you guys think that the Toa's masks will closely resemble their old ones (assuming, of course, the Mata are returning)?

Edited July 16, 2014 by TheGreatSpirit

[Dorek]

If it bothers you so much, then don't read it? It's completely germane to the topic at hand and does have a valid place of discussion. You aren't the topic arbiter, where we all follow what you specifically want to talk about and ignore what other people want to talk about in relation to the return of a franchise that others adore. Quite disrespectful, really. :/

@Dorek: Invalidating other individuals feelings and opinions and desires for this line, presuming it does return and all is true, is a lot more disrespectful and rude than replying to it with snark and making an example of why it's really a crappy thing to invalidate others' opinions and hopes for a line's return. And as for someone criticizing condescension and a holier-than-thou attitude... er... read what you wrote?

I didn't read the initial post as being so incredibly dismissive, but I'll admit I'm not the finest judge on that. The reply to it, on the other hand, was uncalled for. If we do want to have a discussion on equality and treating everyone with respect, shouldn't it start by treating each other with respect? We can have a conversation without the rhetoric. I believe that.

As for this being relevant to the topic... I do think it is. The set leaks we're discussing have an unknown gender variable. If we're going to talk about how their masks might resemble their former selves, it's relevant to talk about if they'll still have the same gender =P. How this (purported) future line compares to the old one is half of what this topic is about, after all.

(that said... the Hau in that image is certainly recognizable enough as a Hau. If they are doing a return of all the characters, it's likely they'll resemble their old selves.)

[Loki]

The topic is about 2015 Rumors & Discussion. I fail to see how this female character stuff has anything to do with 2015 constraction themes. Besides, all it has done is create flame wars. Reply all you want, but as for me, I'm done with the female character stuff. Can we please go back to discussing the leaked images/names

It is about that, yes. Rumors and speculation. A part of Bionicle is the story along with the characters and upon this rumor and speculation fans were speculating (hopefully) that maybe there would be a much better cast of female characters, having them more prominent in the story, in the line, hope that the future Bionicle would distance itself from a lot of flaws it made during the first run through. It is discussion on the topic, completely. As for flame wars, the only people I see who get flame wars rolling are those who vehemently oppose any increase or attention paid to female fans, often saying ludicrous things like "they don't exist!" or that the line must and always will be marketed to boys when there's a very real possibility Lego could drop the gendered marketing to enrich the story and fanbase.

If you don't like a discussion, don't join in on it. Especially if all you want to do is invalidate everyone else, put them down, come across as if you're somehow better than those people who "ooze tumblr SJWness" or whatever was said earlier.

Either way, I still think it would be incredibly important for there to be more featured female characters and sets, more of a presence throughout the various tribes and in the various story positions that don't pigeonhole the characters in one way or another. It was a massive flaw that took away from the original story and cheapened it.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Loki

[Maqdaddio]

Either way, I still think it would be incredibly important for there to be more featured female characters and sets, more of a presence throughout the various tribes and in the various story positions that don't pigeonhole the characters in one way or another. It was a massive flaw that took away from the original story and cheapened it.

I would hope that, if they were to bring Bionicle back, they would take a step back and see that the pigeonholing (problematic for a lot of characters but ESPECIALLY for female roles) was not only a critical flaw in the storyboard process, but also made the characters confusing and too muddied for the reader to distinguish one from the other.

[the last chronicler]

I believe that Lego makes it's choices based on demographics. Gali and Ga-Koro being female was a last minute decision to be inclusive.

I do think that changing any of the original 5 male Toa to female would be just as bad as changing Gali to male, it goes against the iconography of Bionicle.

The question, do people find Ga-Koro having all females and the other tribes solely males as important to the Bionicle lore? Does it change the plot of things? Personally, I think that if the audience is presented a story, then that story will have rules and characters, and if you don't like those then you can make your own. That being said, what's great about Bionicle is that it gives kids a chance to explore a magical world, and part of that appeal is putting yourself into that story. By limiting the choices a kid can make based on gender, you limit your toys relatability. So while only having one female character i.e. Gali is okay to a degree, as it makes the Bionicle story attractive to the smaller but equally important female demographic, you should not limit kids choice on what aspect of the Bionicle element mythos they want to explore and inhabit. So I think they should make all tribes have male and females, or for example if someone wants both genders to have their own exclusive club, make Ta-Koro all male, Ga-Koro all female, and all other tribes mixed.

I actually think romance is really stupid in Bionicle. They're robots, it doesn't make sense to play up those gender roles, you can get comedic story material, cute material, and love material without romance. Bionicle is about that youthful creativity, exploration and making the world better, something that can include all kids without the weight of traditional gender paradigms.

TLDR: Keeps the sets demographically accurate, but don't limit kids imagination. Lego should be inclusive of all genders and people, without the real-world social baggage that those genders and groups entail. This is a toy, it helps us/kids escape reality without losing identity.

Edited July 16, 2014 by the last chronicler

[McSmeag]

Can you guys just make the female crap its own topic? This is for 2015 constraction discussion, not whining about the lack of female characters in Bionicle, and I'm fairly certain many of us are just sick of it by now.

Many of us women are sick of our simple desire for representation being referred to as "crap."

[the last chronicler]

Many of us women are sick of our simple desire for representation being referred to as "crap."

Although you are using his wording and ignoring context just to push the gender 'button', this is an important issue.

It seems like some male fans just don't want to lose the >5/6 ratio of male set choices available, an argument that would still be present even if genders were switched in this situation. Unfortunately, Lego's demographic is male and that is the audience they appeal too, but story-wise there should be enough freedom to tell a story with 50% female and 50% male, 100% female, 100% male characters, or whatever without limiting what those characters do or who they are.

Edited July 16, 2014 by the last chronicler

[McSmeag]

Although you are using his wording and ignoring context just to push the gender 'button', this is an important issue.

I'm not ignoring any context, I'm not aware of any "gender button" in existence, and I'm geniunely curious as to how you've surmised that I don't find this an "important issue." It is critically important.

It seems like some male fans just don't want to lose the >5/6 ratio of male set choices available, an argument that would still be present even if genders were switched in this situation.

Okay, so there are some dumb, regressive men. That's nothing new. Remind me why should we care about what those dinosaurs want, again?

Unfortunately, Lego's demographic is male,

megablocks.

and that is the audience they appeal too, but story-wise there should be enough freedom to tell a story with 50% female and 50% male,

#holla

100% female,

#yoooo

or 100% male characters,

#what

[TheGreatSpirit]

All this nonsensical arguing aside, is anyone else worried about the fate of Hero Factory? Aside from the lack of evidence of a 2015 wave so far, there are also a lot of cliffhangers that were never addressed (kinda like Bionicle actually). Do you guys think that Lego will just skip a closing wave altogether and just "quietly" cancel it?

[Transparency for Effect]

Oh, was I the one to start this off?

The problem is, they missed the boat with both Hero Factory and Glatorians, which didn't have that pesky rule, so that kind of lowers the chances for when they do possibly have to deal with it. Seriously, there was no excuse for not including more in Hero Factory, and they still haven't done that over the 5 years it's nearly been here for. A female constraction line would be more divisive sure, but it seems more likely than what's going on right here.

2. Have a ratio of 2:1 Male to Female. It'll still be majority boy orientated, and the target audience (Boys age 7-13) wouldn't really care. They'd just grab their favorite color, the one that looks coolest, and/or the cheapest one. I propose that, of the remaining 5 male Toa, Pohatu would become female. Why? Both his hips and general attitude would fit a fine female.

I don't know, gender-swapping the characters like that seems weird...

But back on topic, how close can the new pieces potentially resemble the old ones (eg certain masks) if the moulds are absent (and if, indeed, this is all true; let's speculate :b )?

[TheGreatSpirit]

But back on topic, how close can the new pieces potentially resemble the old ones (eg certain masks) if the moulds are absent (and if, indeed, this is all true; let's speculate :b )?

They would probably just make similar looking molds

Edited July 16, 2014 by TheGreatSpirit

[the last chronicler]

I'm not ignoring any context, I'm not aware of any "gender button" in existence, and I'm geniunely curious as to how you've surmised that I don't find this an "important issue." It is critically important.

Okay, so there are some dumb, regressive men. That's nothing new. Remind me why should we care about what those dinosaurs want, again?

megablocks.

#holla

#yoooo

#what

While TheGreatSpirit was being rude, sexist if you will (although I feel that may be a little extreme when talking about a toy where you can completely ignore the issue anyway) his use of 'crap' was equally motivated by the fact that we keep feeling this topic with something that he feels has nothing to do with the 2015 sets and speculation. It was female 'crap' in context to the fact that the discussion is going off-topic, not just because it was female. You're twisting his words to make him sound ruder than he was, then proceeded to attack my argument blindly.

I was agreeing with you that gender equality is important, I was just disagreeing with your method of making said argument. all I was trying to do was present the real world fact that Bionicle sells to males, whether it be a societal thing or a genetic thing it's clear that boys like aggressive and powerful looking toys ( personally, I prefer them for the mystical storytelling and clear morals). Lego doesn't want kids to just buy one set, they want them to buy all of them and make as much money as possible, and boys relate to male characters and role models, So I don't expect Lego to add too many more female characters.

Anyways I'd love to see female Toa of fire, ice, earth, etc! But I'm also a guy, and if I pick/make a favorite character it's going to be a male, and at the end of the day women should be able to have that choice too with Bionicle. Just don't argue to me and other male fans that we're shallow because we like male sets, because the need to have female sets is exactly the same thing. If people truly had no discomfort or loyalty with gender, then it wouldn't matter to boys if the sets were female, and you wouldn't care that so many sets are male.

Edit: wow, this is why this topic is awful, it makes people react like a bursting volcano. All I was try to do is be realistic, reasonable, and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I really do believe Bionicle should remove the gender rules.

Edited July 16, 2014 by the last chronicler

[Lord-Vorahk]

They're robots,

They're about 30-40% organic, it's never been specified exactly what parts of them are organic or mechanical, aside from them not reproducing biologically, and even that's a 'rule' that a few fans ignore.

Sorry, but people dismissing the Matoran race as just "robots" pisses me off. Especially because the universe does have actual robots, such as the Krahli, Vahki, and Maxilos robots, which are rather different from the Matoran as a whole. Regardless of the divisive reveal that the Matoran were never supposed to gain personalities in-universe, they aren't robots.

Aaaaannyway...

On the topic of Bionicle Spiders always lacking in the limb department (Visorak, Dagger Spider, Fenrakk, and now the Skull Spider), it's probably because getting enough connection points onto the body would leave it looking messy, and screw with the piece count.

[the last chronicler]

They're about 30-40% organic, it's never been specified exactly what parts of them are organic or mechanical, aside from them not reproducing biologically, and even that's a 'rule' that a few

On the topic of Bionicle Spiders always lacking in the limb department (Visorak, Dagger Spider, Fenrakk, and now the Skull Spider), it's probably because getting enough connection points onto the body would leave it looking messy, and screw with the piece count.

Sorry, I'm just used to dumbing things down for people who don't understand Bionicle. I know they are partly organic, but technically those organic parts are made out of artificial protodermis, so really they aren't true lifeforms. Personally, I love the piston-mechanical look of the toys, and hate it when muscles are added instead, the innards can be the organic part.

Anyways I just think kids toys don't need to have relationships because they have gender, they have gender because gender is part of identity.

Personally, I don't expect HF to have any more sets, and I don't care. It was repetitive, the sets blend together because they all have the same black pieces, I need story to give my sets more substance.

Edited July 16, 2014 by the last chronicler

[toatali]

On the topic of Bionicle Spiders always lacking in the limb department (Visorak, Dagger Spider, Fenrakk, and now the Skull Spider), it's probably because getting enough connection points onto the body would leave it looking messy, and screw with the piece count.

Surely with the Hero Factory building system it would be easier. This is just going from what I've seen in reviews, but couldn't you just attach an XT4 torso to a larger, maybe titan sized torso? If you attach legs to all of the connection points, then you could get a (slightly wonky looking) 8-legged spider, no? Having said that, if they were to make a titan sized spider with 8 legs, the build for the legs would become v. repetitive.

[TheGreatSpirit]

Surely with the Hero Factory building system it would be easier. This is just going from what I've seen in reviews, but couldn't you just attach an XT4 torso to a larger, maybe titan sized torso? If you attach legs to all of the connection points, then you could get a (slightly wonky looking) 8-legged spider, no? Having said that, if they were to make a titan sized spider with 8 legs, the build for the legs would become v. repetitive.

Perhaps a modified Scorpio build might suffice?

IDK, I am just curious about getting a spider-based villain again. Could it be a mutated Visorak? (not likely, but one can wonder )

Edited July 16, 2014 by TheGreatSpirit

[Krulis]

God damn it. Please made the whole gender thing separate topic. Its hard to find any info here when post after post after pist is devoted to this (in my opinion) idiotic cause. Not everyone who comes here is interested in this discuusion, but everyone who visits this topic want to hear about 2015 constraction sets news. Thank you and goodbye.

Oh and the whole concept of genderbent Toa Mata (my favourite team) in name of making few feminists and other so called "open minded people" happy, made me sick.

[Lord-Vorahk]

It could even be a straight-up Visorak, if it's a reboot. New universe, new designs for the species?