Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Lord-Vorahk]

It'll be interesting to see if Lego brings back the old Bionicle pieces or reinvents Bionicle with te new Hero Factory pieces.

The molds for the original BIONICLE parts have been destroyed/buried under a car park.

[Gatanui]

The molds for the original BIONICLE parts have been destroyed/buried under a car park.

Which doesn't mean any of them couldn't come back if LEGO needed them. It's not like they deleted the blueprints or something.

-Gata

[Lord-Vorahk]

Which doesn't mean any of them couldn't come back if LEGO needed them. It's not like they deleted the blueprints or something.

-Gata

True, true. I suppose we might see the old Mata feet return, then.

[King of Nynrah]

True, true. I suppose we might see the old Mata feet return, then.

Mata feet with the new ball sockets would be great!

In fact, ALL of the old Bionicle parts with the new sockets would be great...

[Aanchir]

The 2.0 foot piece is okay, but the ankle is too far back, meaning that a relatively small foot ends up looking like a clown shoe.

Personally, I find the opposite problem: the ankle on most BIONICLE feet like the Toa Metru foot is too far forward. On a real human foot, the heel just barely sticks back from the ankle, even when wearing a heavy-duty boot, whereas with most BIONICLE feet, the horizontal distance between the ankle and the back of the heel is as great as the vertical distance between the ankle and the ground, if not greater. I am grateful that Hero Factory has provided some good alternatives.

The 2.0 foot is a bit large, but not to the point that it looks ridiculous on a 7-inch/18-centimeter figure. It's just slightly longer in the front than a Toa Mata foot. And in fact, I like that it's slightly oversized because this means it can also be used for larger figures like Furno XL.

Earlier this year I discovered that you can achieve similar foot proportions with a slightly more feminine look by using a 1.0 hero foot, a 2M axle, and a Y-joint. Though that's unlikely to ever appear in sets because 1) it's not a very traditional connection and 2) we haven't seen the 1.0 hero foot since Breakout.

My one biggest criticism of most BIONICLE and Hero Factory feet is that it is very difficult to use them with a friction joint — doing so raises the ankle joint up a full module, which looks slightly absurd (see: Furno XL). But other than introducing a foot piece where the ankle is one module lower by default, I don't know what other solutions might be feasible.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Aanchir

[Lord-Vorahk]

Personally, I'm fine with inhuman feet if it makes the figure more stable. As I said in the Inika topic, they aren't humans. Some of them don't even have toes, and I find the Bionicle foot pieces have always looked better than the HF ones.

[Bfahome]

I think the new characters should be far-future legacy characters taking the names of Toa from legend.

I also think they should bridge the two stories by having the new characters be the ones Vakama always seemed to be narrating to.

[Timeline15]

How damn long does Vakama live?! I love the idea that the guy who was old during the first film would outlive all the mata XD.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Timeline15

[Master_Data]

What if the "Defender" characters are actually the Turaga and not Matoran? That would open up a lot of new possibilities, whether they continue the story or have a reboot.

[Lord-Vorahk]

How damn long does Vakama live?! I love the idea that the guy who was old during the first film would outlive all the mata XD.

Well, he wasn't all that old before 03. If you look at his set art, and the way he carries himself in the Templar animations, he's always upright, carrying his staff by the end of the pole. It's just the movies that turned the Turaga into old geezers. And then did the same with the Rahaga. And Raanu. It was especially ridiculous with the first two. The Metru go from being new Toa in the prime of their existence to crochety old men (and one woman) in two seconds, complete with vocal change. The Rahaga do the same, and then turn back later.

[Master_Data]

How damn long does Vakama live?! I love the idea that the guy who was old during the first film would outlive all the mata XD.

Well, he wasn't all that old before 03. If you look at his set art, and the way he carries himself in the Templar animations, he's always upright, carrying his staff by the end of the pole. It's just the movies that turned the Turaga into old geezers. And then did the same with the Rahaga. And Raanu. It was especially ridiculous with the first two. The Metru go from being new Toa in the prime of their existence to crochety old men (and one woman) in two seconds, complete with vocal change. The Rahaga do the same, and then turn back later.

He is incredibly old. They were on Mata Nui for a thousand years before the Toa came, he was a Toa before that, and a Matoran for a long time before that. However, I do agree that the movies messed up. I always wondered about Matau and Iruini...

Edited July 18, 2014 by Master_Data

[Voxovan]

Well, he wasn't all that old before 03. If you look at his set art, and the way he carries himself in the Templar animations, he's always upright, carrying his staff by the end of the pole. It's just the movies that turned the Turaga into old geezers.

I don't know, for me Turaga Vakama's mask always looked like it had a beard

[Aanchir]

I don't see why people think the movies messed up. The point of the Turaga was always to basically represent the village chiefs/elders. Even if they're not literally older than any of the other Matoran, they were always intended to be mysterious and wise, so I think it would have been unfaithful to that intent if they had been portrayed as young, nimble, and sprightly. Mata Nui Online Game even described Matau as "In lifedawn years past, was known Matau Kewa Champion!" The phrasing there suggests a sense of advanced age was meant to be understood even back then.

Likewise, there's absolutely nothing wrong with how they portrayed the Rahaga and Raanu — what in the world makes you think they were ever meant to be portrayed any differently? The Rahaga in particular — their transformation was supposed to seem unnatural, and their physique in the sets was even more hunched over than their physique in the movies, so I don't see why aging their voices seems like such a problem.

[Jetrax99]

Mata feet with the new ball sockets would be great!

In fact, ALL of the old Bionicle parts with the new sockets would be great...

This. 100% agreement.

[the last chronicler]

On the Turaga:

I personally believe that the process of completing one's Destiny is a revelation that redefines one's purpose, and therefore Toa become wise Turaga who contain this higher sense of being. While matoran are built unaware of the weight, complexity and challenges of the matoran universe, Toa are warriors meant to confront it head-on. Toa could be compared to a U.S. president: by the end of their job they have had to deal with harder challengers than anyone has before, and that process ages them significantly. What was 8 years may look and feel like 20. Toa become the Elder Turaga.

If the defenders are matoran, I think LEGO intends them to have a more active role, which makes sense if they are constantly under threat by Rahi and need to 'defend' there villages.

Edited July 18, 2014 by the last chronicler

[Bfahome]

I don't think it needs to literally be Vakama, but I feel like the legend-telling would be an excellent way to connect the past and present if it were to be set further along the timeline.

I'm also a fan of the legacy character idea in general, because it both leaves established characters as they are (as well as further honoring them) while opening up possibilities for the new characters in terms of gender or personality (while still keeping the connection to the original story). It'd be cool to see subplots about, say, "Tahu" wondering if he/she/they can live up to their namesake's legacy because "Kopaka" acts as the leader this time around.

I doubt it'll be anything close to that, but the idea crossed my mind today and I really liked it.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Bfahome

[Lord-Vorahk]

I don't see why people think the movies messed up. The point of the Turaga was always to basically represent the village chiefs/elders. Even if they're not literally older than any of the other Matoran, they were always intended to be mysterious and wise, so I think it would have been unfaithful to that intent if they had been portrayed as young, nimble, and sprightly. Mata Nui Online Game even described Matau as "In lifedawn years past, was known Matau Kewa Champion!" The phrasing there suggests a sense of advanced age was meant to be understood even back then.

Likewise, there's absolutely nothing wrong with how they portrayed the Rahaga and Raanu — what in the world makes you think they were ever meant to be portrayed any differently? The Rahaga in particular — their transformation was supposed to seem unnatural, and their physique in the sets was even more hunched over than their physique in the movies, so I don't see why aging their voices seems like such a problem.

The problem there is that Takua is much, much older than any of the Turaga, being one of, if not the first Av-Matoran, who were essentially the Super-Prototype of the Matoran race, having access to their powers and both genders. Yet Takua shows no signs of aging, while the much younger Turaga are suddenly crochety the moment they stop being Toa.

As for the Rahaga, they're literally meant to still be Toa in their prime. While I get that the transformation is twisting them, I think they would be creepier if they had normal voices. While Norik's is mostly okay, Gaaki literally sounded like my grandmother, Bomonga didn't sound much better, and Iruni just laughed and never spoke. I'm not sure if the other two even spoke.

The other issue I have is that the movie portrayals clash with the other portrayals of the characters, especially the Metru Turaga.

[Aanchir]

The problem there is that Takua is much, much older than any of the Turaga, being one of, if not the first Av-Matoran, who were essentially the Super-Prototype of the Matoran race, having access to their powers and both genders. Yet Takua shows no signs of aging, while the much younger Turaga are suddenly crochety the moment they stop being Toa.

Yes, but there's no reason to assume that the idea of Takua being older than than the Turaga was known at the time the movies were made. His personality in the movie was meant to be carefree and inexperienced, so he was given a youthful voice. The Turaga, on the other hand, were meant from the beginning to convey an air of wisdom and experience — and when using human voices, a low, elderly voice is the simplest shorthand for wisdom and experience. You can't fault the movie makers for making an informed decision based on the information that was available to them at the time.

[Timeline15]

The whole av-Matoran concept hadn't even been thought up back in 2003. It is now clear that,at least in life forms created by the great beings, aging only really occurs due to transformations. Matoran are young, Toa are adults, Turaga are old. They were created to work a giant robot, and as such have only 3 roles and nothing in between, whereas "real" creatures, like the Glatorian, age naturally.

[Lord-Vorahk]

Yes, but there's no reason to assume that the idea of Takua being older than than the Turaga was known at the time the movies were made. His personality in the movie was meant to be carefree and inexperienced, so he was given a youthful voice. The Turaga, on the other hand, were meant from the beginning to convey an air of wisdom and experience — and when using human voices, a low, elderly voice is the simplest shorthand for wisdom and experience. You can't fault the movie makers for making an informed decision based on the information that was available to them at the time.

That's all well and good, yet Mata Nui, as well as several of the Toa, and Ackar (Who notably is and old geezer but doesn't sound like it) still manage to sound wise and experienced, yet they don't. They still sound like they're capable.

The whole av-Matoran concept hadn't even been thought up back in 2003. It is now clear that,at least in life forms created by the great beings, aging only really occurs due to transformations. Matoran are young, Toa are adults, Turaga are old. They were created to work a giant robot, and as such have only 3 roles and nothing in between, whereas "real" creatures, like the Glatorian, age naturally.

Except, as Kalhiki said further up the topic, there were clues to Takua becoming the Toa of Light in MNOG. Major plot details like the existence of Light as an element that Toa/Matoran could have were there from the get-go. Despite Greg's preference for writing things as he goes, Bionicle's Matoran saga was ridiculously well-planned out. They knew what they were doing.

Plus, the aging = transformation metaphor doesn't really work, considering that Makuta transform all the time, some Toa never were Matoran (The Mata and Helryx, for example, along with the Toa Hagah of each Makuta), and presumably, there were Turaga who were built as Turaga.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Lord-Vorahk

[davidr]

The problem there is that Takua is much, much older than any of the Turaga, being one of, if not the first Av-Matoran, who were essentially the Super-Prototype of the Matoran race, having access to their powers and both genders. Yet Takua shows no signs of aging, while the much younger Turaga are suddenly crochety the moment they stop being Toa.

As for the Rahaga, they're literally meant to still be Toa in their prime. While I get that the transformation is twisting them, I think they would be creepier if they had normal voices. While Norik's is mostly okay, Gaaki literally sounded like my grandmother, Bomonga didn't sound much better, and Iruni just laughed and never spoke. I'm not sure if the other two even spoke.

The other issue I have is that the movie portrayals clash with the other portrayals of the characters, especially the Metru Turaga.

Imagine it this way: Matoran have a spark of energy inside them that can allow them to become a Toa if they are destined to do so. Toa are overcharged with their inner energy making them stronger and unlocking fully their powers over elements and mask powers. Turaga used this energy completely, making them unable to be Toa again, it requires them to fullfil part of their destiny when they needed the energy to do so, the transformation makes them basicly a husk without an important part of what Matoran and Toa are, but because they did what they were destined to, they can basicly only take the role of teachers, advisors, political leaders, as they gained experience from their time as Toa. Body of a Turaga had to be shrinked so it would sustain itself, but Turaga are still stronger than Matoran, because of the transformation to Toa which still left the body strenghtened compared to Matoran body.

Just my view. Don't take it as an universal truth.

[Lord-Vorahk]

Imagine it this way: Matoran have a spark of energy inside them that can allow them to become a Toa if they are destined to do so. Toa are overcharged with their inner energy making them stronger and unlocking fully their powers over elements and mask powers. Turaga used this energy completely, making them unable to be Toa again, it requires them to fullfil part of their destiny when they needed the energy to do so, the transformation makes them basicly a husk without an important part of what Matoran and Toa are, but because they did what they were destined to, they can basicly only take the role of teachers, advisors, political leaders, as they gained experience from their time as Toa. Body of a Turaga had to be shrinked so it would sustain itself, but Turaga are still stronger than Matoran, because of the transformation to Toa which still left the body strenghtened compared to Matoran body.

Just my view. Don't take it as an universal truth.

That's pretty good.

Remember, the staves that each group carried were meant to be defensive weapons, not canes.

[the last chronicler]

Imagine it this way: Matoran have a spark of energy inside them that can allow them to become a Toa if they are destined to do so. Toa are overcharged with their inner energy making them stronger and unlocking fully their powers over elements and mask powers. Turaga used this energy completely, making them unable to be Toa again, it requires them to fullfil part of their destiny when they needed the energy to do so, the transformation makes them basicly a husk without an important part of what Matoran and Toa are, but because they did what they were destined to, they can basicly only take the role of teachers, advisors, political leaders, as they gained experience from their time as Toa. Body of a Turaga had to be shrinked so it would sustain itself, but Turaga are still stronger than Matoran, because of the transformation to Toa which still left the body strenghtened compared to Matoran body.

Just my view. Don't take it as an universal truth.

Did you read my post? I think we both share a similar idea. I think less overcharged, but more that a Toa receives destiny and forefils it, becoming a Turaga in a cycle. They carry the knowledge they gained as Toa but are weaker because they no longer have the strength of a Toa.

[TheGreatSpirit]

I don't think we will be seeing any Turaga in Winter 2015, or at least in a set form.

[Shakar]

I don't think we'll see any Turaga, ever. The last one we got was Dume, ten years ago. I always assumed most people weren't interested enough in them to buy them.

I think the roles of leaders and story tellers can be fulfilled by old and wise Matoran (or Defenders, or however they'll be called) village leaders.