Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Mandate]

If they would confirm the reproduction, that would certainly take a notice and appear as negative backlash. Simply hiding this process may just be for the good. Do you really explain to five year old kid how humans reproduce with genitals? No. Should you explain how bio-mechanic characters reproduce then? No. Remember that we are not the target audience, but a minority which they still care about. Greg only now just revealed how the matorans reproduce. This thing hasn't been touched even on NinjaGo or Chima. Why do you expect it happens in Bionicle?

Woaaaaah.

No one is asking LEGO to teach kids the full tale of "The Birds and the Bees". What people do want, is an explanation. Do they have children, or are they manufactured? That's all we want to know.

And, for the record, it has been explained in both NINJAGO (not NinjaGo, it's not two words) Chima how the humans/animals reproduce. That's how we got a Raven/Eagle hybrid, and nearly got a Rhino/Eagle hybrid too. And for the record, no one is asking for the

either (although that would be awesome).

[Timeline15]

I've never understood how people could suggest that the very existence of sex in a universe makes it unsuitable for kids. You don't actually have to show it happening. -_- You know where else people reproduce biologically? Almost every other franchise, and also the real world. But do those go out of their way to explain that to kids? no. All kids would get is "they have a mum and dad, like me". So before you suggest something like "biological reproduction? they would never do that!", bear in mind that that is how the characters reproduce in almost every non-constraction line Lego has ever made, but they just don't feel the need to talk about it.

[Voxovan]

The series says "father to son" and "across generations" and we have a clearly child-sized Protector-kid and everyone gets into a big discussion/argument over whether or not there's biological reproduction (like there is assumed in almost all media in the history of civilization, even in kids' franchises) or whether they build themselves like they did in G1. And people arguing about what's confirmed and what's not canon and all I can think of is "man G1's literal word of God canonization via Greg ruined the franchise's ability to handle subtlety and ambiguity".

The sooner that dies out for the new line the better.

This this this this this this.

[DraikNova]

Sheesh, I just said that I thought it would be more interesting for the building element to be canon and we get this ridiculously long argument. Also, why are people using the argument of "robots don't have souls" when the whole concept of souls is ridiculous in the real world as well?

[Scarilian]

The idea that the Protectors have an age cycle kind of hints towards them being more biological this time around, though i doubt we will get something as straight-out as 'they have sex'. In most cartoons where they have reproduction they introduce parental figures and that kind of explains the situation without explaining the situation.

- Ninjago, Castle, Space, etc... are all set around humanoid enough character in a humanoid enough world to the point which implies that they reproduce sexually

- Chima is filled with humanised characterisations of animals and introduces parental figures and has male and females of both species aswell as a romance between individual members implying that they can reproduce sexually

- Bionicle Gen 1 stomped on romance after a while and tended to avoid having parental figures, as such using the formula they would'nt reproduce sexually, as confirmed by Greg recently as he mentioned the Turaga build Matoron (Matoran become Toa, Toa become Turaga)

- Bionicle Gen 2 has parental figures and growth, two factors that imply they are more biological that the Gen 1 Bionicle's. In addition it has the line 'passed down from father to son' which seems to imply that they do have reproductions.

In general the closer a character is to being human, the more likely they reproduce sexually

(Obviously Lego can turn around and say that they reproduce via a different method, but given what they've established at the moment its more likely they reproduce sexually)

Edited February 7, 2015 by Scarilian

[GK733]

Now that I think about it I explained my point poorly. Sorry about that.

[Chimaninja454]

The idea that the Protectors have an age cycle kind of hints towards them being more biological this time around, though i doubt we will get something as straight-out as 'they have sex'. In most cartoons where they have reproduction they introduce parental figures and that kind of explains the situation without explaining the situation.

- Ninjago, Castle, Space, etc... are all set around humanoid enough character in a humanoid enough world to the point which implies that they reproduce sexually

- Chima is filled with humanised characterisations of animals and introduces parental figures and has male and females of both species aswell as a romance between individual members implying that they can reproduce sexually

- Bionicle Gen 1 stomped on romance after a while and tended to avoid having parental figures, as such using the formula they would'nt reproduce sexually, as confirmed by Greg recently as he mentioned the Turaga build Matoron (Matoran become Toa, Toa become Turaga)

- Bionicle Gen 2 has parental figures and growth, two factors that imply they are more biological that the Gen 1 Bionicle's. In addition it has the line 'passed down from father to son' which seems to imply that they do have reproductions.

In general the closer a character is to being human, the more likely they reproduce sexually

(Obviously Lego can turn around and say that they reproduce via a different method, but given what they've established at the moment its more likely they reproduce sexually)

Great idea! I hope you're right!

Speaking of it, I must say that BIONICLE Generation 1 and 2 is great themes, and I enjoy the mature story, and I hope that the second genration of BIONICLE will gradually be darthan HF..,

What I have seen about the CCBS. I think that the CCBS and the old Gen 1 system are great building systems LEGO has invented for. But I hopw that there will be new armor for the CCBS to match the old spirits of Gen 1-

EDIT 2: Ouch!

Edited February 7, 2015 by Chimaninja454

[MakutaOfWar]

Sheesh, I just said that I thought it would be more interesting for the building element to be canon and we get this ridiculously long argument. Also, why are people using the argument of "robots don't have souls" when the whole concept of souls is ridiculous in the real world as well?

Found the atheist!

XD I'm more worried about things like personality and emotions. My Bonkles always had that when I was little, it would be too different for my taste to have them be just robots. Plus the sense of magic(souls) doesn't hurt.

[Aanchir]

It just makes it harder to understand for me. When I look at things such as droids in Star Wars, like C-3PO, of course they're shown with personalities and a "soul". But when you try to think about it, it is extremely confusing and mind-crushing to just attempt to make sense of HOW they can have a soul.

So conversely, without getting into a religious debate, what is it that makes souls in organic creatures any less "confusing and mind-crushing"? Most people I know don't consider souls something that "evolved" or something that is in any way tied to our fleshy substance. Nor do people think of the presence of a soul as a hereditary trait.

Obviously, we're used to thinking of machines as soulless entities, because in our world that's generally how it is. But in a sci-fi context, that is not necessarily the case. Even our brains, the center of our reasoning, operate through electrical signals, and our genetic material is simply an elaborate code. If these once mysterious aspects of human functioning can be broken down into a digital sequence, who's to say that things like emotion could not?

[Scarilian]

Found the atheist!

XD I'm more worried about things like personality and emotions. My Bonkles always had that when I was little, it would be too different for my taste to have them be just robots. Plus the sense of magic(souls) doesn't hurt.

It isnt really 'souls' that you seem to desire... just proper characters and character development, which can occur without having to specify whether they have souls.

Hero Factory for example despite its flaws did give some of the characters personallities and character development, even though they were robots, though i do admit it was fairly basic.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Scarilian

[Kalhiki]

I love the "are robots alive" question. My take on things:

As far as souls go, if a being can think for itself, has feelings, and for all intents and purposes acts human, then it has a soul. The concept of a soul is a confusing one since no one knows what it is (or even if it exists). But if an entity can make its own choices and have feelings toward other things, then by golly, count that sucker alive.

Reproduction... I feel that the Protector species is far more organic than anything previously in Bionicle (maybe around Agori/Glatorian levels of organic-ness). I also support the idea of evolution doing crazy things and the Protectors have mechanical-esque parts made from organic matter. Or we go the whole Agori route with mechanical implants (that always sounded creepy to me. I don't like the word 'implant'). Plus, aforementioned "father to son" and baby Protector. So yeah, I'm inclined to believe they reproduce biologically.

[arc]

Wow. A 3 page argument about if bonkles can get busy or have souls. I love this forum.

Anyway, might as well throw in my thoughts.

"Father and son" and "passed on through the generations" and baby protector and old protector pretty clearly say biological reproduction to me. (If ask me, the Turaga building new people is kinda creepy) like others have said, they may look mechanical, but in a completely different universe that doesn't matter. It can simply be explained by saying evolution worked differently on them.

And I honestly don't care in the slightest if they have souls or not. They don't need souls to have emotions. Wall e proves this. (I don't believe we have souls in the real world either, but that is a completely different topic)

[MakutaOfWar]

Or we go the whole Agori route with mechanical implants (that always sounded creepy to me. I don't like the word 'implant').

*Cough*Roodaka*Cough*

This conversation exploded though...

[DraikNova]

In regards to the "Protectors grow, as seen with the baby protector" argument: Protectors could just be biomechanical, but with some sort of system to allow their mechanical parts to grow along with their organic components. Or the organic parts of the Protectors could add metal onto the preexisting mechanics as required. Either way, Protectors probably consider ore part of a healthy breakfast.

[Nekchir]

G2 Bionicles should have kids. Yes, biologically not metaphorically. Don't like it? Tough cookies.

[The Kumquat Alchemist]

In my BIONICLE headcanon, I use the WH40K soul mechanics, in which all sufficiently intelligent sentient beings naturally create an imprint in the Warp, and whose imprint can persist after death, to be reinserted into a new body, reincarnated, or consumed into larger gestalt souls by beings more comfortable in the "afterlife". I think this interpretation of souls works well for BIONICLE and any other media with sentient robots or cyborgs who inexplicably display phenomena such as out-of-body experiences, resurrection after deaths in which the body is mostly or completely destroyed, and similar.

As for G2 reproduction, I don't care, so long as whether they reproduce or not makes sense in the context of the origins of the Villagers. If it turns out they are some grand experiment, or were a colony of worker drones who gained sentience, or something like that, then assembly-based reproduction or no reproduction at all would make sense; however, if it is implied or stated that they were not built by anyone, but therefore have naturally evolved, then it would be absurd if they didn't have some form of reproduction more similar to those displayed by creatures in real life.

Edited February 7, 2015 by The Kumquat Alchemist

[DraikNova]

Personally, I've tried to think about how the concept of souls (in the traditional sense) would work (I did the same thing when I was eight and first heard of the "1 dog year = 7 human years" thing. I came to the conclusion that factories probably used dog intestines to speed up processes. No, I don't know why I didn't come up with the more obvious "expressions are inaccurate" answer. Kids are gullible.), and, well, first of all, you'd need a sub-level of reality, containing insanely complicated processing systems to hold all of the information about someone. You'd need one for every human, and possibly one for every one of the 100 billion humans that have ever lived, if recycling isn't an option. Then you'd need to give those systems the ability to sense what is a sapient being, without being affected by one if it isn't (= interacting with something to determine whether to interact with it). This is necessary to have an excuse for the fact that they haven't been detected at all and to give them an ability to interact with people and update in response to that person's life. Then you'd need hundreds of subroutines just to stop surgery and the like from causing souls to get all messed up with other people. Why would you believe that you'd have such an insanely complicated system to explain sapience/sentience when it's much easier to accept that the human brain is a very complicated system?

Edited February 7, 2015 by DraikNova

[Timeline15]

So, on a less philosophical note, I just ordered Tahu and Pohatu, along with the hero pack, so they'll show up at some stage soonish

[TheGreatSpirit]

G2 Bionicles should have kids. Yes, biologically not metaphorically. Don't like it? Tough cookies.

What a well reasoned, thought out argument you have there. I like how you explained your reasoning with absolutely nothing.

On another note, should we expect the Skull Squad to come out alongside the Star Wars constraction sets? Or does that come later?

[arc]

On another note, should we expect the Skull Squad to come out alongside the Star Wars constraction sets? Or does that come later?

I think I heard august for the skullins somewhere, but I can't confirm that. So take it with a grain of salt.

But it is only 1 week away from the NY toy fair, so we might hear something then. (And more images!)

[Nekchir]

What a well reasoned, thought out argument you have there. I like how you explained your reasoning with absolutely nothing.

On another note, should we expect the Skull Squad to come out alongside the Star Wars constraction sets? Or does that come later?

It wasn't an argument, it was a statement.

[MakutaDreadscythe]

Guys! Guys! Seriously. I have your evidence.

For sake of being serious, I do think it is a strange topic, and one I don't particularly want an answer to. Don't need robots teaching us the birds and the bees.

Edited February 7, 2015 by MakutaDreadscythe

[Dorek]

The series says "father to son" and "across generations" and we have a clearly child-sized Protector-kid and everyone gets into a big discussion/argument over whether or not there's biological reproduction (like there is assumed in almost all media in the history of civilization, even in kids' franchises) or whether they build themselves like they did in G1. And people arguing about what's confirmed and what's not canon and all I can think of is "man G1's literal word of God canonization via Greg ruined the franchise's ability to handle subtlety and ambiguity".

The sooner that dies out for the new line the better.

It's not even ambiguity at that point, it's people being unable to make obvious logical conclusions for themselves without approval. And yes, once that goes away, we'll be so much better for it.

If people had subscribed to Hero Factory, though, they might have prepared for such a thing :U

For sake of being serious, I do think it is a strange topic, and one I don't particularly want an answer to. Don't need robots teaching us the birds and the bees.

I don't think it's a weird debate in and of itself. G1 obviously handled the topic less than gracefully by being inconsistent in its portrayal, so returning fans would want some clarity. But if "father to son" and "generations" aren't enough clarity for people, then I don't really know what to say.

[CabooseBM]

I feel vaguely targeted, so I'm going to clarify that I am already on board the obvious reproduction camp, I merely think the more magi-mechanical "building" is way cooler. AND thematic! =V

[VBBN]

This is a completely pointless topic to argue about. Either way, let's keep any religious talk out of the subject, we do not allow any such discussion on EB.

Thanks