Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[VBBN]

Not so! Toa Mahri Kongu and Toa Mahri Hewkii were both 22.5 modules tall (7 inches/18 centimeters) — about the same height as a Toa Nuva. Toa Mahri Nuparu and Jaller were both 28 modules tall (8.75 inches/22.4 millimeters) — the same height as a Toa Inika. Naturally, all the Toa Mahri cost the same price.

Well that wasn't my point, I mean in the case of a standard hero compared to an XL set. Making all of the characters one pricepoint and just altering their height isn't the same thing as ramping a Toa's pricetag up with a slew of possibly uneeded parts. If they want to make one hero bigger than the rest, say a beefy Onua with big long arms, cool, I'll gladly buy it. But if they just pull a CHI Fluminox and put a Toa on a Rack (making them unnecessarily tall) and wasting parts on overdoing a weapon or some gimmick that doesn't add a whole lot to the figure, that I'm not okay with.

[Aanchir]

Well that wasn't my point, I mean in the case of a standard hero compared to an XL set. Making all of the characters one pricepoint and just altering their height isn't the same thing as ramping a Toa's pricetag up with a slew of possibly uneeded parts. If they want to make one hero bigger than the rest, say a beefy Onua with big long arms, cool, I'll gladly buy it. But if they just pull a CHI Fluminox and put a Toa on a Rack (making them unnecessarily tall) and wasting parts on overdoing a weapon or some gimmick that doesn't add a whole lot to the figure, that I'm not okay with.

CHI Fluminox doesn't offer a great value for money, but I don't think it's fair to call some of the figure's most unique features "gimmicks that don't add a whole lot to the figure". And in any case, I don't see any "gimmicks" in any of the pictures we've seen of the new Toa, unless you count Tahu's lava surfboard as a "gimmick".

And as I mentioned in my previous post, Axonn was twice the price of a Toa Inika but exactly the same height. Take off Axonn's giant hands and there are barely any proportional differences whatsoever. The difference is just that Axonn is more complex and bulkier than a Toa Inika.

[VBBN]

CHI Fluminox doesn't offer a great value for money, but I don't think it's fair to call some of the figure's most unique features "gimmicks that don't add a whole lot to the figure". And in any case, I don't see any "gimmicks" in any of the pictures we've seen of the new Toa, unless you count Tahu's lava surfboard as a "gimmick".

And as I mentioned in my previous post, Axonn was twice the price of a Toa Inika but exactly the same height. Take off Axonn's giant hands and there are barely any proportional differences whatsoever. The difference is just that Axonn is more complex and bulkier than a Toa Inika.

"Unique features" is completely up to the eyes of the beholder, I think his wings are annoying and I'd much rather they have simply been pose-able, and I felt the same about a lot of the gimmicks we saw with BA- but that's a different discussion. As far as I can see, there aren't any gimmicks, but I was making a general point about Toa- as I'm assuming CCBS and the size/pricepoints of sets will continue to stay past this one wave.

Axonn is far bulkier and more filled out than any canister set in 2006, not just more complex. With Axonn I feel they designed the set with the design in min first, whereas with Fluminox it feels more like they said "we need to make one of these figures into a pricier set" and improvised.

[Says Seven]

I'd be pretty happy if these new masks were be somewhat compatible with metru heads. I know that the chances of that are indeed slim, but a guy can dream can't he? XD

Edited August 5, 2014 by Says Seven

[Kalhiki]

Why wouldn't it make sense, though? Just because that's the way it's always been done? Because that's not a very good reason at all. There's absolutely no rule about how masks in BIONICLE have to attach.

Also, technically, many of the Glatorian helmets would qualify as masks. Not Kanohi masks, but masks nonetheless, because a mask is something that covers the face or part of the face, and most of the Glatorian masks do just that. They're even consistently referred to as masks in the catalogs and official set inventories on LEGO customer service. People made the arbitrary decision that masks that went over top of the head were helmets many years earlier — people randomly decided to call the Inika masks and Mistika Makuta masks as "helmets" or "helmet-like" long before the Glatorian (or any rational reason to call such masks helmets) existed.

Basically, masks and helmets are defined by what they do. A helmet protects the head, a mask covers the face. Some things do both, and therefore, are both. Neither definition has anything to do with how they're attached to the head. This is a mask that you pull over your head, but no sane person would consider it a helmet because it is not designed for protection of any kind.

Plus, if you define the difference between masks and helmets as how they're attached to the head (which makes no sense whatsoever), then what would you call these from the Splitface set? They attach to the sides of the head. Are they masks? Helmets? Neither? Both? In any case, as far as LEGO Customer Service is concerned, they're "masks", and there's really no logical reason to say they aren't.

You argue that Makuta masks follow different rules than other masks, but there is absolutely no reason to assume that. Mata Nui's Kanohi Ignika attached over top of the head as well, as did the Dikapi's. The more sensible explanation is that how a mask attaches to the head has nothing to do with whether or not it's actually a mask. Which, you know, would be consistent with real life anyway.

I never said I define masks and helmets by how they attach. Like you said, masks cover the face. Helmets protect the head. And this is how I define the two as well. When it comes to sets, the same applies. And this also relates to the most likely scenarios on how they attach.

A helmet, by definition, protects the head. So, the set needs to convey that. And the only way to cover the entire head is to have it slip over the top. Connection on top. Splitface is an exception due to what the set needs to accomplish. But in the end, it still serves the same purpose as a helmet that attaches on top, that being all around head protection.

Masks, by definition, cover the face. So the mask in a set only needs to accomplish this. Best way? Attach it to the front.

Yes, there are oddballs in this. Inika Masks, Teridax's mask, and Glatorian Mata Nui's Ignika, to name a few. These are still masks simply because the story tells us so. Otherwise, they are more so helmets than masks. From 2001-2004, all sets wore masks that connected in the same fashion(with the exception of Teridax). Folks who followed the story knew that all the characters wore masks, so it would be safe to assume Terry wore a mask as well. 2006 had the Inika, and the same applied (same goes for all oddball masks. By the time they were introduced, we could all safely assume they were wearing masks like everyone else).

"So why don't they attach from the top and have the story say they're masks" you ask? If Lego wants to make a toy line about characters who wear masks, why would they make masks that attach on top? Most kids would look at the sets and say, "that's a helmet, not a mask." The Frankenstein mask you linked to is definitely a mask, but that's because we know that it's not made of metal or any sort of material that would protect your head and thus consider it a helmet. But such things would be hard/impossible to convey in a set. How do you show that a helmet-like piece is supposed to be a mask? You don't. The only way would be to explain it in the story. Now with the reboot, why take that extra step when you can just mold the piece so it's clearly not a helmet?

[TwistLaw]

But in real life, most people don't wear masks by sucking on a peg on the inside with their mouths.

You can't even imagine how much you made me laugh with that sentence, Aanchir, for I imagined a person doing what you just said and it was just hilarious.

Also, how the hell I've never seen it that way before?!

[Voxovan]

But in real life, most people don't wear masks by sucking on a peg on the inside with their mouths. Most masks attach over the head by necessity. Even if the mask is flat and goes in front of the face (like what you might wear to a masquerade ball), you generally attach it by slipping it over your head with a strap.

But BIONICLE is not the real life :V

Whereas with Fluminox it feels more like they said "we need to make one of these figures into a pricier set" and improvised.

That's exactly how I feel about the Splitter Beast <.<

[Aanchir]

I never said I define masks and helmets by how they attach. Like you said, masks cover the face. Helmets protect the head. And this is how I define the two as well. When it comes to sets, the same applies. And this also relates to the most likely scenarios on how they attach.

A helmet, by definition, protects the head. So, the set needs to convey that. And the only way to cover the entire head is to have it slip over the top. Connection on top. Splitface is an exception due to what the set needs to accomplish. But in the end, it still serves the same purpose as a helmet that attaches on top, that being all around head protection.

Masks, by definition, cover the face. So the mask in a set only needs to accomplish this. Best way? Attach it to the front.

Yes, there are oddballs in this. Inika Masks, Teridax's mask, and Glatorian Mata Nui's Ignika, to name a few. These are still masks simply because the story tells us so. Otherwise, they are more so helmets than masks. From 2001-2004, all sets wore masks that connected in the same fashion(with the exception of Teridax). Folks who followed the story knew that all the characters wore masks, so it would be safe to assume Terry wore a mask as well. 2006 had the Inika, and the same applied (same goes for all oddball masks. By the time they were introduced, we could all safely assume they were wearing masks like everyone else).

"So why don't they attach from the top and have the story say they're masks" you ask? If Lego wants to make a toy line about characters who wear masks, why would they make masks that attach on top? Most kids would look at the sets and say, "that's a helmet, not a mask." The Frankenstein mask you linked to is definitely a mask, but that's because we know that it's not made of metal or any sort of material that would protect your head and thus consider it a helmet. But such things would be hard/impossible to convey in a set. How do you show that a helmet-like piece is supposed to be a mask? You don't. The only way would be to explain it in the story. Now with the reboot, why take that extra step when you can just mold the piece so it's clearly not a helmet?

I think most kids are smarter than to think of something as a helmet or helmet-like just because it goes over the head, but given this discussion maybe I'm overestimating how rational people in general tend to be.

[theheronetwork]

I think a good way to accomplish the face under the mask look would be to have the glatorian head but have an extra axle hole on the mouth like the new brain attack one. Or just 11270 with a face molded (or printed?) on.

[GK733]

Nearly all masks had a little dot on the opposite side of axle joint (expect Mistika). The New Hau doesn't seem to have it as didn't helmets later on. It's very much possible that these guys have it attached on top and use the Brain Attack head.

Edited August 6, 2014 by GK733

[TheGreatSpirit]

But BIONICLE is not the real life :V

Spot on. I don't understand why everyone expects human-like characteristics from Bionicle sets, like human proportions and this whole mask/helmet debate. Kinda ridiculous, if you ask me.

Edited August 6, 2014 by TheGreatSpirit

[Legomaster34]

In-story the masks are held to their faces via magnetism, if I remember correctly, so the peg plugging into their mouths is just a set feature. As for how they're going to attach in the upcoming sets, while I'd prefer them to attach onto the front like the old masks, I'll just have to wait and see!

[Kalhiki]

I prefer a face attachment. But if they have molded mouths on the mask, then I'll be fine with a top connection.

[TheGreatSpirit]

I prefer a face attachment. But if they have molded mouths on the mask, then I'll be fine with a top connection.

Eh, just for nostalgic purposes I would like a face connection

[Dorek]

I'd want to see a helmet/faceplate type thing, but one that attaches via click points (like the Hero Factory kaiju jaws) to facilitate knocking off; the perfect blend of old and new!

(if anything it will be a peg in a face but I CAN DREAM)

Edited August 6, 2014 by Dorek

[Lord-Vorahk]

Spot on. I don't understand why everyone expects human-like characteristics from Bionicle sets, like human proportions and this whole mask/helmet debate. Kinda ridiculous, if you ask me.

This! All of my this! I discussed this in my topic about the qualities of Inika builds, and I still think the Matoran species not having human proportions is something entirely inconsequential because they aren't humans. They've never been humans, and the only time you'll see them as humans is when someone on DA draws them as animu bishie humans, either for a laugh or because they can't draw machine characters. They never will be humans, and their proportions have never been human. (Arms as long as legs, if not longer, since 2001, complete with tiny upper arms/thighs and gangly forearms/shins, oversized feet, weird and wonderful hand designs, etc...

Hell, I remember the time BZP praised a set for coming closer to human proportion than Bionicle ever had previously. That set? Tanma. (This is no slight against Tanma, he's one of my favourite sets/characters... when he isn't succumbing to Lime Plastic Syndrome)

[Aanchir]

This! All of my this! I discussed this in my topic about the qualities of Inika builds, and I still think the Matoran species not having human proportions is something entirely inconsequential because they aren't humans. They've never been humans, and the only time you'll see them as humans is when someone on DA draws them as animu bishie humans, either for a laugh or because they can't draw machine characters. They never will be humans, and their proportions have never been human. (Arms as long as legs, if not longer, since 2001, complete with tiny upper arms/thighs and gangly forearms/shins, oversized feet, weird and wonderful hand designs, etc...

Hell, I remember the time BZP praised a set for coming closer to human proportion than Bionicle ever had previously. That set? Tanma. (This is no slight against Tanma, he's one of my favourite sets/characters... when he isn't succumbing to Lime Plastic Syndrome)

Tanma never suffered from Lime Plastic Syndrome. The fragility issues that set had didn't have anything to do with its color — pretty much ALL the joints in 2008 had that issue.

But in any case, I don't have a problem with sets having non-humanoid proportions. Still, when a figure's wrists are at or below their knees, there's a very definite problem, unless they're intended to look awkward and gorilla-like. Because that's the impression it conveys. Even the classic BIONICLE and Hero Factory sets, with arms as long as their legs, didn't have that problem.

[Kalhiki]

It's weird. During its run, I didn't have a problem with the proportions in Bionicle. But now with the better proportioned Hero Factory figures, I look back on Bionicle sets and realize how awkward some look.

Glad CCBS is sticking around.

[Sir Walter Maugham]

It's kinda the opposite for me. Most of the Hero Factory characters look like their arms are too short, even though I know full well that they're properly proportioned.

I guess Bionicle permanently screwed up my point of view.

[DOTM Shockwave]

It's weird. During its run, I didn't have a problem with the proportions in Bionicle. But now with the better proportioned Hero Factory figures, I look back on Bionicle sets and realize how awkward some look.

I think the same way

It's kinda the opposite for me. Most of the Hero Factory characters look like their arms are too short, even though I know full well that they're properly proportioned.

I guess Bionicle permanently screwed up my point of view.

I found this funny for some reason.

[Logan McOwen]

A-are we seriously debating how masks attach?

Here's a simple answer: A mask is not a hat, therefore it doesn't go on top. It goes on your face, like glasses.

Did I seriously have to define that??

Edited August 7, 2014 by LewiMOC

[SirPuddings]

If realism is the effect you want, I think having them with string tied to the back of the head would be more accurate than on the front of the face, and certainly more so than a pin on the top of the head. However, I would much prefer if they went with the classic method of having the mask be pinned to the front of the face.

As for proportions, I didn't really think it mattered all that much, it's not as if they're human or anything, even though I do like both proportions of the inika builds and of the CCBS humanoid build.

[Voxovan]

A-are we seriously debating how masks attach?

I guess that because of the lack of Bionicle 2015 news we don't have anything to discuss, so we start debating about such weird things :P

Come on, give us more leaks!

[Aethersprite]

I guess that because of the lack of Bionicle 2015 news we don't have anything to discuss, so we start debating about such weird things :P

Come on, give us more leaks!

Forget the leaks, I want an official reveal!

Seriously though, I hope the SW/SH catalogue leaks soon - it'd mean Bionicle's wouldn't be far behind!

[Lord-Vorahk]

I've replaced my Tanma's limbs twice, same with Lewa Phantoka's. Kirop, Chirox, Gavla, and Vultraz are all still perfectly servicable.

As for the proportion issue, I too find that a lot of HF sets have arms that are too short. Hell, when I watched Pacific Rim, I thought Gipsy Danger's arms looked too short. I know they're closer to human than the Inika builds were, but I kinda liked having the longer arms. That was what a Toa looked like for me, ever since I got into the series. ANd let's not forget that the 03 Matoran have hands that reach the floor and basically no legs. The Mahritoran are just like that, but upscaled, and the Avotoran aren't an accurate depiction of Matoran proportions because they're enlarged.