Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Cryokina]

All the links are 404'd dude.

Brickshelf itself is down for maintenance, so nothing's working.

As an aside, I'm still holding out hope that Pohatu uses tan and brown.

[Timeline15]

I sssooo want it to be tan. Vorox made me want to moc tan things, and we haven't had much to work with since then (other than the thornatus, but that was mostly technic beams).

[davidr]

Indeed — in fact, some of her earliest bios exemplified this aspect of her. Some people dislike this characterization, though, because it plays into the stereotype of women being volatile or prone to mood swings. Personally I think it definitely makes Gali an interesting character, but it should always be treated with great care in the story. Katara in Avatar: The Last Airbender is a good example of how this sort of duality can be handled effectively, without being offensive. She has both a gentle, caregiving side and a furious, vengeful side, but it's not due to fickleness or mood swings, but rather a keen awareness that there is a time for being caring and gentle and a time for letting loose and exacting justice.

After all, Gali is the only known Toa who had destroyed a whole island.

[Leewan]

Agreed. If anything, the silver bit is the shell and the gold is the add on.

Well, when I look at the pic, I see that (of course, the savage planet part replaces here the new add-on) :

And plus, if he's classic green, bright green would rot as yet another colour that gets used in the CCBS once only to be forgotten (I'm looking at you, tr. yellow, tr. dark green, Keetongu yellow-orange, etc.. ).

Keetorange appeared in two Chima sets this year : the #8 armor (agreed, not the most useful one) in Lavertus' base, from the first wave, and the Savage Planet paw part in Laval's lion tank, from the current wave.

If it's not gold, then what is it? Your guess is as good as mine as I don't have any exclusive pics. I initially thought tan or dark tan, but looking at the image again the shade is too yellowish. It might be Keetorange. Note however, that the image is quite oversaturated (gold is nowhere that bright IRL!), and the Jungle Defender's secondary colour looks darker, closer to Hewkii's burnt orange (Dark Orange perhaps? I don't know).

I place my bet on keetorange.

the Toa Inika-eque silver part is a new two-pins add-on. Kopaka has it in white, and Onua and Tahu (on his lower arms) in gold.

And I'm pretty sure the Fire Defender too does have one of those parts in white / silver on his torso.

Anyways, what you say about Lewa's green makes sense. But... I simply prefer Dark Green over Bright Green, the latter is too bright to my taste.

[Lord-Vorahk]

I'm hoping for Keetorange, mainly because my Selfmoc uses it, and I'd like to give him CCBS upgrade.

[Aanchir]

Keetorange (Flame Yellowish Orange) on an air character would be... interesting. Wasn't Umbra the last constraction set to pair it with any kind of green? It's definitely a nice combination, but not one you see very often.

It's not like people can complain about it not fitting the element, since green doesn't really resemble the actual color of air either. :P But with that said, I am somewhat more inclined to expect Warm Gold shells, since Tahu, Kopaka, and Onua all appear to use Warm Gold (and because it'd be a bit weird for the LEGO Group to create a new recolored element for a fairly minor part of the build and not use it in any of the other sets).

[Leewan]

But with that said, I am somewhat more inclined to expect Warm Gold shells, since Tahu, Kopaka, and Onua all appear to use Warm Gold (and because it'd be a bit weird for the LEGO Group to create a new recolored element for a fairly minor part of the build and not use it in any of the other sets).

I don't think so, the Air Defender seems to use the same color (which is logical), and I think Keetorange bones are more likely than golden ones (although I'd love metallic-colored bones).

[dviddy]

Considering the gold mask is a different colour in the image than the colour in question on Lewa, I'm inclined to think it will be keetorange. Also really makes me wonder if he will be changed to jungle.

[davidr]

It looks to me that the golden mask and these shells are of the same color.

[Shakar]

"Pure black" just won't happen. Rare are the sets in ANY LEGO theme that are pure black without any more brightly-colored accents. Even Black Phantom used Dark Red beams, among other more brightly colored parts. The reason is that a pure black model is not all that photogenic. The details tend to just melt together and the result is a shadowy blob without many distinguishing traits (this is even true with MOCs unless you are an especially skilled photographer).

Also, pure black makes instruction manuals difficult to decipher. In fact, this is true of most colors, hence why so many sets use brightly-colored bricks for the interior of the build, and why so many BIONICLE and Hero Factory sets use alternating colors for the leg and arm beams. With sets, you want the model's details to be able to stand out on the store shelves, in the instruction booklet, AND on the assembled model.

Anyway, while you may be sick of red and black bad guys, there's a reason why so very many franchises have them. The symbolic meanings of those colors is well-suited to villains: black suggests darkness, while red suggests blood. It's similar to how gold works so well for heroes because it can represent the light of the sun, or how white can be used to represent light and purity.

Indeed — in fact, some of her earliest bios exemplified this aspect of her. Some people dislike this characterization, though, because it plays into the stereotype of women being volatile or prone to mood swings. Personally I think it definitely makes Gali an interesting character, but it should always be treated with great care in the story. Katara in Avatar: The Last Airbender is a good example of how this sort of duality can be handled effectively, without being offensive. She has both a gentle, caregiving side and a furious, vengeful side, but it's not due to fickleness or mood swings, but rather a keen awareness that there is a time for being caring and gentle and a time for letting loose and exacting justice.

In fact, later I did realize the same problems you mentioned (hence my comment on tr. purple). The topic kinda died a few posts later though, so I didn't follow upon it. Never thought about the photogenic issue though.

Mind you, I don't outright hate black+red. In fact I think Core Hunter (due to red being used only as subtle accents), Black Phantom and Tunneler Beast (bright green created a wonderful contrast) pulled it off rather well. I just hope the new villains don't overuse it. The Lord of Skull Spiders seems to use tr. reddish orange, which is pretty darn cool. As for Makuta, I just red and gunmetal never fit him that well. Black and dark orange, as an homage to his infected and rusty Hau in 2001...now THAT is something I'd like to see.

And yes, I pretty much meant that. Not an instable person, but one who knows she must use force when neccessary.

Oh man. Now that you say keetorange, looking back at it, I'd bet almost anything Lewa is using keetorange. Not sure how I feel about this. Also, speaking of burnt orange... Pohatu? I went and pulled the image up again, and now I'm wondering if that colour is Pohatu's colour. Would be an interesting half-step between the orange 2008 Pohatu and the original brown one.

Pohatu could be dark orange, indeed- much more exciting, in my opinion, than Avak/Mungus brown. But as I said before, I've never been a fan of brown. I do really like Hewkii brown, though, and this one is rather close to it!

As for Lewa, I tried to build a (really crappy) mock-up of him to see how the major candidates (keetorange, dark tan and gold) would look, and..well, see for yourself. Dark tan and gold look ok actuallym especially dark tan. As for keetorange, not sure if I like how it looks. They're both extremely bright colours, so there's little to no contrast. Even when combining it with classic green rather than bright green, the problem is still there IMO.

I don't mind Lewa and the others getting new secondary colours (Onua having tr. purple is AWESOME), but I would've followed Le-Matoran colour schemes- so, leaving lime aside, something closer to teal, a bluish shade (like azure, which Gali is using, or tr. light blue).

Keetorange (Flame Yellowish Orange) on an air character would be... interesting. Wasn't Umbra the last constraction set to pair it with any kind of green? It's definitely a nice combination, but not one you see very often.

It's not like people can complain about it not fitting the element, since green doesn't really resemble the actual color of air either. :P But with that said, I am somewhat more inclined to expect Warm Gold shells, since Tahu, Kopaka, and Onua all appear to use Warm Gold (and because it'd be a bit weird for the LEGO Group to create a new recolored element for a fairly minor part of the build and not use it in any of the other sets).

Green for Air wasn't exactly random, green is often seen as the colour of the wind/air element in eastern cultures (I know, I know, TvTropes, but they summed it up nicely). And then they probably built the whole association between Air characters and jungle (that, and he probably was created as Jungle Slizer's spiritual successor). Or maybe it's the opposite they thought about a Toa living in the forest first, then they decided his power was air-based intead of plant control. You're right though, it's not an obvious (nor universal) association.

Finally (and probably one of the main points I wanted to write about)..taking a look at the Lewa mock-up I built, the arms sit very low compared to the Superhero chest plate, and the head is barely visible (and it looks downright dumb with a helmet on, unless you extend the neck like on Core Hunter). On the Toa, however, the arms are nicely aligned with the chest armour and the head sits above the chest and shoulders just right, without any trace of extended necks. Just look at Pohatu to see how different his proportions are compared to the standard Hero.

So it got me thiking: what if the Toa use new torsos? Something taller (but slightly shorter than the titan torso), with different connection points?

[Aanchir]

Considering the gold mask is a different colour in the image than the colour in question on Lewa, I'm inclined to think it will be keetorange. Also really makes me wonder if he will be changed to jungle.

The packages on the display stand we've seen say "Defender of Wind" and "Lewa, Master of Wind". And according to some people, air has always been called jungle in Russian BIONICLE promotional material (Russian being the language our list of set names came from). So while the display stand image could be preliminary, I think it's most likely that he will keep the air/wind element and the "Jungle" set names were just a localization quirk.

Green for Air wasn't exactly random, green is often seen as the colour of the wind/air element in eastern cultures (I know, I know, TvTropes, but they summed it up nicely).

Believe me, I realize that, but at the same time its colors are the least connected with the element's physical appearance out of the six main elements — something that made the controversy over the stone element's colors changing from a shade of orange and a tone of yellow to a lighter shade of orange or a purer tone of yellow kind of ridiculous.

[Leewan]

So it got me thiking: what if the Toa use new torsos? Something taller (but slightly shorter than the titan torso), with different connection points?

Hum, that gives me an idea.

But I actually think Lewa's body could be built that way :

I find it more likely than a new body part.

[Shakar]

Believe me, I realize that, but at the same time its colors are the least connected with the element's physical appearance out of the six main elements — something that made the controversy over the stone element's colors changing from a shade of orange and a tone of yellow to a lighter shade of orange or a purer tone of yellow kind of ridiculous.

Ah, definitely agreed on that. My guess is that they thought about making 6 heroes with distinct colours first (6 colours that were deemed to be the most attractive ones to customers' eyes, I'd guess), and only then did they decide on which elements assign to each Toa. Some were a no brainer (red and orange symbolize fire in nearly all cultures, for example), some were more tied to the locations than the elements (Onua, the black Toa wandering through the dark caves and Lewa, the green Toa jumping from tree to tree). But I can freely admit green=air is a stretch. I remember, back in 2001, that I would often argue with my friends on Lewa's element: of course, guess what, they were convinced he was the Toa of Plants (or rather, "grass", as they said). The confusion was very much there.

The Stonegate was a pretty fun one, yes. Mind you, I was one of the many who were outraged to see Hewkii turning gunmetal and yellow. Then I realized I liked yellow lot more, so I stopped thinking about it. And stone comes in a whole lot of colours- grey, tan, yellow, orange, white, pink, brown.. anything goes really. And I always liked the idea of each element being associated to a group of colours rather than a single one. For example, Air had green, but also lime and teal. Then there was Earth, with black, dark grey, and even tan, orange and purple.

)

Hum, that gives me an idea.

But I actually think Lewa's body could be built that way :

I find it more likely than a new body part.

I did think about a titan torso, actually. The problem is that Pohatu's shoulders stick out much wider than the design you showed- just compare him to Black Phantom and see what I mean. That, and you'd have to fill in the gaps with more shells and the limbs would have to be really long to fit the torso size, shooting the set parts budget (and therefore its price) well beyond the limits. There's a reason past mid-size sets using the titan torso (Hulk, Cragger, Panthar, Mungus..) have featured very short and/or skinny legs (and sometimes arms). These Toa, meanwhile, have some very long and well armoured limbs.

[Leewan]

The problem is that Pohatu's shoulders stick out much wider than the design you showed- just compare him to Black Phantom and see what I mean.

Might be due to the pose / angle of the body.

That, and you'd have to fill in the gaps with more shells and the limbs would have to be really long to fit the torso size, shooting the set parts budget (and therefore its price) well beyond the limits. There's a reason past mid-size sets using the titan torso (Hulk, Cragger, Panthar, Mungus..) have featured very short and/or skinny legs (and sometimes arms). These Toa, meanwhile, have some very long and well armoured limbs.

Lewa's legs are skinny. I'm pretty sure there's nothing more than #3 green and #4 tan/yellow/gold/*insert your favourite color* armors on his limbs. And there seem to be a back armor. The way I see it, he's built that way :

43 parts, throw in a golden mask and the spider parts, and you have about 50 parts. The only part I'm really not sure about is the back (of course).

Also, I have no idea which shade of brown is Pohatu (but I'd say reddish brown), but he and the Stone Defender appear to have tr. yellow bones under the brown armors. This is really intriguing...

[Aanchir]

I did think about a titan torso, actually. The problem is that Pohatu's shoulders stick out much wider than the design you showed- just compare him to Black Phantom and see what I mean. That, and you'd have to fill in the gaps with more shells and the limbs would have to be really long to fit the torso size, shooting the set parts budget (and therefore its price) well beyond the limits. There's a reason past mid-size sets using the titan torso (Hulk, Cragger, Panthar, Mungus..) have featured very short and/or skinny legs (and sometimes arms). These Toa, meanwhile, have some very long and well armoured limbs.

Well, it's possible that his shoulders aren't actually wider and Leewan is right about the chest plate being farther forward. At that angle, that would mean the right shoulder would appear to be behind the chest plate and the left shoulder would seem to stick out a good distance from the chest plate. That seems consistent with both of Pohatu's shoulders in the picture.

Personally, I will not be too happy if this torso build is what the Toa use. The exposed crotch is just... ugh. On XL heroes it's passable, just because they are the exception rather than the rule and it would be silly to introduce a new torso shell just for them. For all six of the main sets of a wave I think a better-fitting armor solution is called for.

[Lord-Vorahk]

THe Toa don't appear to have exposed crotches in the pic, so maybe there will be new torso bones. Still hoping that they come in colours other than black.

[Logan McOwen]

Might be due to the pose / angle of the body.

Lewa's legs are skinny. I'm pretty sure there's nothing more than #3 green and #4 tan/yellow/gold/*insert your favourite color* armors on his limbs. And there seem to be a back armor. The way I see it, he's built that way :

43 parts, throw in a golden mask and the spider parts, and you have about 50 parts. The only part I'm really not sure about is the back (of course).

Also, I have no idea which shade of brown is Pohatu (but I'd say reddish brown), but he and the Stone Defender appear to have tr. yellow bones under the brown armors. This is really intriguing...

I really love your mockups dude. What software are you using for the renders?

That aside, I'm looking at the little figures (Guardians? Defenders? Forgotten the word...), And methinks they're using the XT4 torso. I mean, their heads look pretty big in proportion to their bodies, and I do not recognise the armour used on their torsos...

Edited August 20, 2014 by LewiMOC

[Leewan]

I really love your mockups dude. What software are you using for the renders?

Thanks ! I render with POV-Ray. The trick is that I enable the outlines in LDD2POV-Ray, the converter I use, they give a particular look to the renders, and they help to render faster. I also change the quality, the render you quoted has the highest quality, but the previous one, where I show how I think Lewa's body will be made, has the lowest quality, it gives a building instructions feel to the renders, which I appreciate.

[Shakar]

Might be due to the pose / angle of the body.

Lewa's legs are skinny. I'm pretty sure there's nothing more than #3 green and #4 tan/yellow/gold/*insert your favourite color* armors on his limbs. And there seem to be a back armor. The way I see it, he's built that way :

43 parts, throw in a golden mask and the spider parts, and you have about 50 parts. The only part I'm really not sure about is the back (of course).

Also, I have no idea which shade of brown is Pohatu (but I'd say reddish brown), but he and the Stone Defender appear to have tr. yellow bones under the brown armors. This is really intriguing...

Still, his legs are far more complex and long than the likes of Cragger. If the Toa have new torsos, though, we'd still have to count the budget to produce the new part so I guess that point of mine is moot.

And good thing you mentioned the crotch section (that sounds terrible, I'm sorry), Aanchir. As Lord-Vorahk pointed out, that area is completely covered by the torso shell. And unlike Leewan's design, there doesn't appear to be a significant distance between the torso bone and the torso shell: it's as if the shell was directly attached onto the torso bone, without a oOo liftarm in between. Now I'm more convinced than ever that the Toa use a new torso, to accomodate their bigger and stronger body build.

And I can't believe I didn't realize this before. You're right, the Stone guys DO have tr. yellow bones! Not sure why, but they look cool (and they match the recoloured Pyrox flames on the Stone Defender's weapon. The Water and Ice characters have tr. light blue bones (check Gali's lower legs), the Earth defender has tr. purple upper leg bones. These sets just keep getting better and better...

I really love your mockups dude. What software are you using for the renders?

That aside, I'm looking at the little figures (Guardians? Defenders? Forgotten the word...), And methinks they're using the XT4 torso. I mean, their heads look pretty big in proportion to their bodies, and I do not recognise the armour used on their torsos...

First off, I agree. Those are some awesome mockups. Very realistic.

It's supposed to be Defenders..apparently. And curiously enough, as Aanchir pointed out a while ago, some Turaga were called like that in some very early promo material. As for their torso armour, it's a new piece- check the text under spoiler tags for more info.

And yes, I'm more and more conviced they in fact use XT4 torsos, just take a look at their proportions: their heads (as you said), their limbs AND how huge the Pyrox flames look compared to them. They really want to make clear the Toa are that much bigger than them, just like in 2001. That, and since a part of the pieces budget is eaten by the Skull Spiders, they've been made a bit more simple than (think Rocka Crawler).

Oh, and more analyses and rants I had wrote but cut out from the final post because it became way too long and boring:

I don't want to be that guy, but after so many years despising Hero Factory... I think I'll miss it After all it was a good companion for my troubled teenage years, and just as I get out of them... HF ends too. I know I won't be the only one to miss it, neither the only one who became a man -strong expression, but you get the idea- alongside our galactic robots, but this saddends me as I'd never expected.

You're not the only one, I'll miss HF too. It wasn't flawless, but classic BIONICLE wasn't either. It did do a lot of dumb things that kept me for enjoying it to the fullest (like wasting its final two years on mindless monsters and not keeping up with the innovation brought by Breakout), but it was a very fun ride overall.

It will be interesting to see how many of HF's best points (and to which degree) will be followed upon by, ahem, BIONICLE 2. I'm mostly talking about the quality of small sets and the colour schemes variety. I'm kind of bummed to see that the Defenders are reintroducing the biggest flaw most of classic BIONICLE's small sets had- being a smaller copy of the larger sets, in colours, numbers and designs.

The small HF sets were awesome because they existed as separate characters altogether: Thornraxx or Tunneler Beast offered something different you couldn't get if you bought Splitface or Crystal Beast. Meanwhile, the Defenders just scream "dismantle me and use my parts to boost my element's Toa!".

They're definitely my least favourite part of an otherwise awesome lineup. I hope the next small sets have more personality. I wish they were closer to something like the 2001 Matoran- heck, if this is a reboot these guys should actually have been the Mctoran.

Keetorange appeared in two Chima sets this year : the #8 armor (agreed, not the most useful one) in Lavertus' base, from the first wave, and the Savage Planet paw part in Laval's lion tank, from the current wave.

And I'm pretty sure the Fire Defender too does have one of those parts in white / silver on his torso.

Ah, so those WERE size 8 afterall. I always assumed they were size 6 (from Jetbug). Quite the useless recolour: there's a reason size 8 was abandoned after 2011. I actually forgot about the paws, but, again, not very useful to me- I'd rather see smaller shells (size 3-4-6).

Indeed he (or she? Oh who am I kidding) does, actually all Defenders seem to use them on their torsos (which gives some support to the theory that they use XT4 torsos), and the Stone Defender and Gali use them as shoulder pads.

Finally, is it just me or...is Gali wearing a Pakari? It looks exactly like Onua's mask, but Gali's gold mask looks different than that (its eyes are much bigger, for one). Could this imply the sets are preliminary and the Defenders might have different masks in the final version?

[Lord-Vorahk]

If the Defenders are Turaga as opposed to Matoran, what does the fact that they're active and packing mean for their previous portrayal as crotchety geezers? Are they now more spry and active, or do they just have gatling guns for "Git off my lawn" action?

[Kalhiki]

If the Defenders are Turaga as opposed to Matoran, what does the fact that they're active and packing mean for their previous portrayal as crotchety geezers? Are they now more spry and active, or do they just have gatling guns for "Git off my lawn" action?

As much as I'd love this, I doubt they're Turaga. Matoran just seems more likely. That, or they're a completely different entity that... Defends things? Either way, Matoran or Matoran-type characters seem more likely because they were sometimes portrayed as village defenders/warriors when the time came.

[Leewan]

Still, his legs are far more complex and long than the likes of Cragger.

Last year's Cragger's legs were indeed simpler, but the new one has two armors and a spike on each leg, which is, IMO, comparable to two armors and one add-on, especially since they seem to be rather small parts (#4 and #5 armors and a spike VS #3, #4 armors and a small add-on).

And good thing you mentioned the crotch section (that sounds terrible, I'm sorry), Aanchir. As Lord-Vorahk pointed out, that area is completely covered by the torso shell. And unlike Leewan's design, there doesn't appear to be a significant distance between the torso bone and the torso shell: it's as if the shell was directly attached onto the torso bone, without a oOo liftarm in between.

It might be true for the others, but Lewa definitely has the gap. That's why I used the oOo liftarm, I noticed the gap, which led me to think that the armor isn't directly attached to the torso part.

The Water and Ice characters have tr. light blue bones (check Gali's lower legs), the Earth defender has tr. purple upper leg bones. These sets just keep getting better and better...

Indeed. This is getting really exciting, especially the trans-purple.

First off, I agree. Those are some awesome mockups. Very realistic.

Thank you. :D

And yes, I'm more and more conviced they in fact use XT4 torsos, just take a look at their proportions: their heads (as you said), their limbs AND how huge the Pyrox flames look compared to them.

I agree. Actually, I also did mock-up the Defenders' structure earlier.

[King of Nynrah]

As much as I'd love this, I doubt they're Turaga. Matoran just seems more likely. That, or they're a completely different entity that... Defends things? Either way, Matoran or Matoran-type characters seem more likely because they were sometimes portrayed as village defenders/warriors when the time came.

I just had a sudden realization. In early 2009, the Agori were the defenders of the Glatorian in arena matches. Perhaps the Defenders are just Agori?

[Dorek]

Maybe we won't be using those words at all, and their proper title is going to be Defender/Guardian/whatever? Just a thought. We haven't actually seen any in-universe terms, so no reason to assume that the conventions will be identical.

[Aanchir]

I just had a sudden realization. In early 2009, the Agori were the defenders of the Glatorian in arena matches. Perhaps the Defenders are just Agori?

Possibly, but I'm honestly hoping for Matoran just for nostalgia's sake.