Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[SirPuddings]

If this is a complete reboot, would they be required to change the names of the characters and their titles to avoid another Maori language controversy?

No, it wasn't so much the fact that they used Maori words at all, it's that they misused Maori words in some cases (character name changes were made for story reasons to make the changing of words fit better)

[Mesonak]

Of note: this site translates stuff to "Guardian of ______" but I'm going to call them Protectors until further notice considering the earlier set list. Not really much else of any substantial interest, but I'm going to post it here anyway (confirmation of age ranges, if nothing else):

70778 - Protector of Jungle

70779 - Protector of Stone

70780 - Protector of Water

70781 - Protector of Earth

70782 - Protector of Ice

70783 - Protector of Fire

70784 - Lewa Master of Jungle

70785 - Pohatu Master of Stone

70786 - Gali Master of Water

70787 - Tahu Master of Fire

70788 - Kopaka Master of Ice

70789 - Onua Master of Earth

70790 - Lord of the Skull Spiders

Edited August 28, 2014 by Mesonak

[Vahkiti]

Of note: this site translates stuff to "Guardian of ______" but I'm going to call them Protectors until further notice considering the earlier set list. Not really much else of any substantial interest, but I'm going to post it here anyway (confirmation of age ranges, if nothing else):

70778 - Protector of Jungle

70779 - Protector of Stone

70780 - Protector of Water

70781 - Protector of Earth

70782 - Protector of Ice

70783 - Protector of Fire

70784 - Lewa Master of Jungle

70785 - Pohatu Master of Stone

70786 - Gali Master of Water

70787 - Tahu Master of Fire

70788 - Kopaka Master of Ice

70789 - Onua Master of Earth

70790 - Lord of the Skull Spiders

I noticed that all of these listings seem to have an EAN attached to them. Not that there's much doubt left, but out of curiosity, I looked up the numbers on POD, and while I can't find any listed data pertaining to the products themselves, (it's all unlisted and in fact says the now infamous "coming soon" line..) this site was able to link it directly to a specific person at Lego as the owner. Jens J. Meisner to be exact, if that means anything to anybody.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Vahkiti

[Logan McOwen]

I honestly don't mind the Toa being referred to as Masters now. In fact, I'll be quite HAPPY if Bionicle has less jargon. So much less vocabulary to have boggling around in your head. And anyway, Master Tahu just sounds so oriental. I love that.

Also, keep watch of that there website. Y'never know, they could have pictures at some point...

Edited August 28, 2014 by LewiMOC

[Shakar]

I can't imagine the skull spiders adding that much to the cost of a set. We can already tell that they're just five pieces each and that in the pictures we've seen they all use the same molds. That's a big difference from the mini-heroes which included nine pieces (not counting accessories like rocket boosters, data pads, and weapons), including one unique helmet mold. And each set only includes one skull spider in addition to the main figure, unlike Rocka Crawler which included a mini-robot, a cocoon, AND a jumper, or Evo Walker which included a mini-robot and THREE jumpers.

My goal for the new sets would be for all price points to have a price per piece of 20–25 cents USD. So the $10 Defenders should have 40–50 pieces, the smaller $15 Toa 60–75 pieces, and the larger $20 Toa 80–100 pieces (ideally, all towards the higher end of that range, especially at the higher price points). All of the Invasion from Below sets met or exceeded these thresholds, as did most of the Brain Attack sets. The Chima constraction sets have not consistently met these thresholds, but to their credit they have elaborate printed, pre-assembled head pieces that are no doubt more expensive than the simpler heads and masks of BIONICLE and Hero Factory sets. For the new BIONICLE, I do not anticipate that being a problem, so I would expect their prices to be more like what Hero Factory has demonstrated for the past two years.

I do not think that it will be difficult for the defender sets to meet these thresholds — each has not only a five-piece skull spider, but also six ammunition pieces and possibly as many triggers (if the new blasters are anything like the click shooter used for this summer's Hero Factory sets). And each defender seems at LEAST as complex as Aquagon from the Brain Attack series, a set that managed to meet these thresholds even with very simple weapons. However, I am not so sure about the Toa. None of my doodles of them on LEGO Digital Designer even approach these piece counts. Hopefully that's a sign of how little of them I've been able to figure out correctly, and not how little complexity the actual sets will offer.

I wonder how long we have to wait to learn official piece counts. That would give me a better sense of how complex the various sets are.

I got the impression that, despite having less pieces than the mini-Heroes, the Skull Spiders masks/bodies still use a fairly large amount of plastic. You're right about the Jumpers and the Heroes' equipment though, the Spiders are nowhere as complex and playable as those elements. Including the ammo, I count 43 pieces on the Stone Defender (though I had to make a lot of assumptions about how the staff is built, and I'm sure I missed 2-3 pieces). It's a pretty average parts count for a small set, though a bit lower than this year's average. I can see these sets dropping to 9 Dollars/Euro instead of 10 (2012-2013 small sets have been priced at 9 here and in a bunch of other European countries, actually), but I can't see them go any lower.

I tried counting Lewa's and Tahu's parts, and it's confusing, yeah, the counts are pretty much in line with those of a small set. The arms are pretty easy to figure out, but there's definitely something about their torsos we haven't figured out yet, and that might hold true for their heads as well (doesn't Water Defender's neck- I'll assume the Defenders use the same head design as the Toa- look odd?).

Now for the juicy part. From the links Mesonak posted:

-Defenders -> ages: 6-12, product size (packaging included) in cm: 14.1x19x0.54

-Lewa, Pohatu, Gali -> ages: 7-14, product size (packaging included) in cm: 17.7x22x0.45

-Tahu, Kopaka, Onua -> ages: 8-14, product size (packaging included) in cm: 19x25.3x0.46

-Lord of Skull Spiders -> ages: 8-14, product size (packaging included) in cm: 17.7x22x0.45

Since you're probably wondering how these sets compare to those we already know about (data taken from the same site):

-Small set (I'm using Tunneler Beast, for the record) -> ages: 6-12, product size (packaging included) in cm: 17x23x4.7

-Mid-size set (Crystal Beast) -> ages: 7-14, product size (packaging included) in cm: 19.5x28x7.5

-Large set (Splitter Beast -> ages: 8-14, product size (packaging included) in cm: 24x28x10,5

There's no doubt anymore: the bottow row Toa with gold armour are bigger sets than the other 3. Lord of Skull Spiders is an odd case: he's in the "Gold Toa" age range but his packaging is as big as those of the 7-14 Toa. I wonder if it's a mistake, it's really weird for Lego to mix up things like that.. anyway, I tend to trust the age tag more (he has six legs and 2 arms/mandibles, which implies a more complex build).

Compared to Invasion from Below sets, the age ranges are the same (which implies they're using the same price points), it seems like they're aiming for smaller packaging however.

[Manx]

Those sound great ...

[TwistLaw]

Not really. In this day and age "Master" is fairly gender neutral, and "Mistress" carries an entirely different set of connotations. You don't see female martial arts champions being called "mistresses" — if they master the art, they are considered masters.

And how do you know about the different set of connotations the word mistress has, Aanchir?

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 

[Agent Fusion]

Let's not go there.

[Logan McOwen]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

R A I S E U R B O N K L E

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

Edited August 28, 2014 by LewiMOC

[Aanchir]

Now for the juicy part. From the links Mesonak posted:

-Defenders -> ages: 6-12, product size (packaging included) in cm: 14.1x19x0.54

-Lewa, Pohatu, Gali -> ages: 7-14, product size (packaging included) in cm: 17.7x22x0.45

-Tahu, Kopaka, Onua -> ages: 8-14, product size (packaging included) in cm: 19x25.3x0.46

-Lord of Skull Spiders -> ages: 8-14, product size (packaging included) in cm: 17.7x22x0.45

Since you're probably wondering how these sets compare to those we already know about (data taken from the same site):

-Small set (I'm using Tunneler Beast, for the record) -> ages: 6-12, product size (packaging included) in cm: 17x23x4.7

-Mid-size set (Crystal Beast) -> ages: 7-14, product size (packaging included) in cm: 19.5x28x7.5

-Large set (Splitter Beast -> ages: 8-14, product size (packaging included) in cm: 24x28x10,5

There's no doubt anymore: the bottow row Toa with gold armour are bigger sets than the other 3. Lord of Skull Spiders is an odd case: he's in the "Gold Toa" age range but his packaging is as big as those of the 7-14 Toa. I wonder if it's a mistake, it's really weird for Lego to mix up things like that.. anyway, I tend to trust the age tag more (he has six legs and 2 arms/mandibles, which implies a more complex build).

Compared to Invasion from Below sets, the age ranges are the same (which implies they're using the same price points), it seems like they're aiming for smaller packaging however.

Curious that the packages for the new sets seem to be closer to the size of the sets from the next price point up in Hero Factory than the sets of the same price point. That honestly does not bother me terribly — I do not judge the value of a set by its size, let alone by the size of its package, so much as by its piece count. Still, I hope that the piece counts DO measure up to what we'd expect of these price points.

I also still wonder what TYPE of packaging the new sets will use. I hope they stick with the foil pouches, personally. The display stand image we've seen does not provide much enlightenment in this regard, as all the packages are represented simply with two-dimensional cards. If they ARE pouches, then it seems like those for the Defenders are a new size... but then again, the size listed is just slightly larger than the size of the non-resealable foil packages used for the Mixels and LEGO Friends animal packs, so maybe they will use a similar style of packaging, except not packed in a box like those?

The incredibly small depth measurements for these sets (fractions of a centimeter for even the largest sets) seem downright impossible, and I'm fully prepared to chalk those up to either an error in placing the decimal point, or an indication that the measurements given represent the packages when empty... which would be strange, but it could also explain why the height and width measurements are slightly off from the most similarly sized 2013 set packages.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Aanchir

[davidr]

R A I S E U R B O N K L E

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

Someone knows Twitch chat, I presume? Kappa

So I contribute to the discussion: There is no reason for changing Toa to master. They can be Toa, but they can be called masters at the same time, maybe because those who call them masters have never heard the term Toa, or they don't know that Tahu and company are Toa. It would be disappointing to see that they completely dropped original names for species. Calling them Toa can be used in books and this kind of media, that most people won't bother to get their hands on, while they can be called masters in their set names, in movies (TV series), Lego magazine, etc. To add to this, most franchises have some jargon - Transformers, Star Gate, Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and many, many more. Kids can remember few weird words and as I stated earlier, master can be just a replacement for a lack of words in the story or promotional name.

[Vahkiti]

Honestly, I consider these changes to Bionicle an interesting experiment into my own thought processes regarding a franchise so close to heart. I often wonder if Sonic The Hedgehog were as beloved to me as it is to some other people in my age group, if I too would act like the crazy, entitled jerks often seen in comment threads regarding the newer games. This may just allow me to answer that question, and if nothing else, I'm excited about that.

That does bring to mind one troubling thought though; I wonder how much this is going to divide the community. I can see this easily turning into a classic vs. modern situation à la Sonic, with neither side being satisfied with the opinions of the other, constantly at each other's throats over the slightest disagreement. It's not a situation I'd like to see repeat, but it's already happened on a smaller scale with Hero Factory.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Vahkiti

[Kalhiki]

No matter how much they call them "Masters", they will always be Toa.

[Lord-Vorahk]

I highly doubt that the Bionicle fanbase will ever get as bad as the Sonic fanbase, because LEGO won't ever make anything as bad as Sonic 06 or Sonic Chronicles, nor are they going to allow a trillion third parties to make their own canons, of which maybe three at most don't suck.

That said, there are a few Genwunners in the Bionicle fanbase... but they already dislike everything past 03, so I don't think they'll much care if 2015 isn't accurate to 2010.

[Sir Walter Maugham]

No matter how much they call them "Masters", they will always be Toa.

Agree with you 100%.

[...] most franchises have some jargon - Transformers, Star Gate, Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and many, many more. Kids can remember few weird words and as I stated earlier, master can be just a replacement for a lack of words in the story or promotional name.

Let me just add the biggest example:

Pokemon

649 of 'em. The idea that children can't keep up with Bionicle's weird terms and names is a bit silly if you ask me.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Sir Walter Maugham

[Lord-Vorahk]

Agree with you 100%.

Let me just add the biggest example:

Pokemon

649 of 'em. The idea that children can't keep up with Bionicle's weird terms and names is a bit silly if you ask me.

718, as of X/Y. And that's not counting the three hidden ones.

[Chro]

Honestly, I consider these changes to Bionicle an interesting experiment into my own thought processes regarding a franchise so close to heart. I often wonder if Sonic The Hedgehog were as beloved to me as it is to some other people in my age group, if I too would act like the crazy, entitled jerks often seen in comment threads regarding the newer games. This may just allow me to answer that question, and if nothing else, I'm excited about that.

That does bring to mind one troubling thought though; I wonder how much this is going to divide the community. I can see this easily turning into a classic vs. modern situation à la Sonic, with neither side being satisfied with the opinions of the other, constantly at each other's throats over the slightest disagreement. It's not a situation I'd like to see repeat, but it's already happened on a smaller scale with Hero Factory.

As long as there's a sizable number of rational people who see that both are good, we'll be fine.

[Aanchir]

649 of 'em. The idea that children can't keep up with Bionicle's weird terms and names is a bit silly if you ask me.

Well, hang on one moment. Pokémon is a considerably different beast from BIONICLE in terms of its jargon, in that most of the names have apparent meanings that relate directly to the Pokémon's design. In fairness, some names' origins are slightly obscure (to pick a recent example, "Greninja" doesn't make complete sense unless you recognize that the first part of its name comes from "grenouille", the French word for frog).

But BIONICLE names' meanings and origins can be even less apparent. It wasn't until 2006 that we started getting sets with obvious English cognates... names like Axonn and Brutaka. Before that, most characters' names were either plucked from obscure languages or made up with arbitrary combinations of syllables that only had clear meanings in-universe.

There are some exceptions, of course — Nixie in the Mata Nui Online Game II has an actual English word for her name, though a lot of people didn't realize this. I have actually read a fanfic where somebody came up with a backstory for Nixie and had a character name her for the Latin word for snow, Nix! Never mind how little sense this would make in-universe.

Also, knowing every Pokémon is basically trivia. It is not necessary to know every Pokémon to understand the TV show and games. Remembering the names, powers, and backstory of the current BIONICLE characters and species is much more important to following the BIONICLE storyline than knowing every Pokémon is to following the events of the Pokémon games and TV series.

With that said, I don't think this is a real issue for BIONICLE at all. The term Toa is perhaps one of the simplest concepts in the BIONICLE universe, once you strip away all the crazy science of how Toa powers work. And those storyline complications have nothing to do with what the species is called. If the term Toa is not used in the new storyline, so be it — but it wouldn't be because it would complicate things significantly.

And in any case, I don't see why people are even speculating about the name Toa going away, as if we have any evidence to suggest it! Tahu has been called a Toa of Fire, a spirit of fire, and a master of fire at various points in the storyline. Only one Tahu set (the 2008 version) ever actually included the word Toa in its name, and for that matter, no Matoran set EVER included the word Matoran in its name. So it's a bit odd that people expect to see the word Toa or Matoran in these sets' names at all!

[Dorek]

I wouldn't call Toa as a concept easy to understand, by default; it's not even TECHNICALLY a species name at all, even though it gets generalized as such (and don't get me started on Glatorian), and as you say, there's the crazy science of evolving from a different species, and then evolving into another one. The series is rife with exceptions on what Toa means, who fits the definition, etc.

[TheGreatSpirit]

I wouldn't call Toa as a concept easy to understand, by default; it's not even TECHNICALLY a species name at all, even though it gets generalized as such (and don't get me started on Glatorian), and as you say, there's the crazy science of evolving from a different species, and then evolving into another one. The series is rife with exceptions on what Toa means, who fits the definition, etc.

The series was rife with exceptions as a whole, it would make sense that even the term Toa would become over-complicated as well.

[Vahkiti]

Hmm.. surprise surprise, the site Meso linked to has removed the listings for the new sets. The coverup continues! If anyone's interested in doing some further digging, I still have Tahu's EAN number, but unfortunately I didn't snag any of the others: 5702015350419

EDIT: This kind Reddit user managed to back up the entirety of every listing's description prior to the takedown. All EANs are present and accounted for, along with the rest of the technical information. As you were boys and girls! :P

http://www.reddit.co..._ag_has_listed/

Edited August 29, 2014 by Vahkiti

[the last chronicler]

I think this "Master of _____" deal is a good sign. It means LEGO actually wants kids to know about the story. Making things clear isn't always about dumbing things down outright, it could also be about easing the audience in. You can't know why a Toa is cool unless you know what he can do, and knowing the characters powers is the first step of entering the story. By keeping the concept clear on the box kids can just buy without knowing anything, but it can also encourage them to jump into the stories complexities and be milked of allowance for 9 years.

Really, things only became complicated in Bionicle because people treat this stuff like a science. The word Toa has a simple connotation, the same connotation that Jedi, hero, or superhero have. If you're a Jedi, you carry a colorful light-saber, use the force, and help people. If you're a Toa, you use masks powers, control elements, and help people. I know four-year-old's that can understand that. The word Toa is like the word hero, you say it and an image pops up, but that image is so straightforward and inherent--Toa: Red guy with firesword, etc; Hero: a firefighter, etc-- that one doesn't need the word to understand the idea. What is needed is a reason to care about this toy or hero, something which defines a Toa as different from all other heroes: a.k.a. what makes them cool. Indiana Jones has a whip, Batman beats the crap out of people and is super smart, and Toa are the masters of fire, water, earth, air, ice and stone.

I'm certain they'll use the term Toa in-story because that is what they are and what they believe in, but in the end kids will know what Toa means because they are the tall ones that save the day: just like adults and just like heroes. It's the Toa's element that makes each toy different and increases sales, and 'defenders or guardians' give imagery of those who protect what's important even if they don't possess it, just as Matoran and Turaga defend their tribe without a Toa's power.

Edited August 29, 2014 by the last chronicler

[VBBN]

I'll agree that I'm okay with a name change. "Master of Fire" sounds far more compelling than "Toa of Fire," at least to me anyway. With that said I hope they showcase their powers over elements, after a lack of elemental powers in 2009/2010 and only some vague powers in Hero Factory, having elemental beings using their powers together is something I miss greatly.

[Agent Fusion]

I don't mind what they call them, they'll still be Toa.

[Transparency for Effect]

Unless there's a really, really good reason for it, removing (at least these) names like Toa and Matoran (at least on characters from the old franchise) would be going too unnecessarily far, even for a reboot. Feel free to disagree but, give me good reasoning.