Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Lord-Vorahk]

Not having guns?The Defenders all have guns

Matoran-scale characters have never had powers. Toa have powers, so they don't need guns.

I don't have a problem with the Mahri and Phantoka/Mistika all being able to breathe in water or fly, because it enabled them to have more varied settings.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Lord-Vorahk

[Kalhiki]

I say keep the shells. Detail can come from printing and add-ons.

Though that's not to say a few, new, detailed shell pieces wouldn't be welcome. I'm still quite fond of the machinery-looking shell from the fire villains.

[Clone 01354 Productions]

I don't have a problem with the Mahri and Phantoka/Mistika all being able to breathe in water or fly, because it enabled them to have more varied settings.

No. The defining factors of the Toa was that they each had their own little power, and working as a team was the only way to defeat the enemy. Gali could go underwater to infiltrate a lair, and Lewa could transport Matoran to places quicker. Remember in Mask of Light, when they used sand, heat, and wind to freeze the Rahkshi in glass? UNITY!! or when the Metru froze Makuta in the Protodermis? They each used their elemental powers. UNITY!! With Inika, and Mistika/Phantoka, they just shot enemies until they died. There was no Unity, no teamwork. It was just Lego saying, "Kids like jetpacks and lasers, lets give the Toa those!"

Unity. Duty. Destiny. A major "theme", if you will, of Bionicle. Without one, there are no others.

Edited August 30, 2014 by LN-01354

[---Vertea---]

I don't mind the ball system, but I really hope they make a new shell that keeps the old Bionicle aesthetic of pneumatic details and artistic gaps. Bionicle characters never really looked as smooth as the HF shells would make them.

And here's hoping to more elemental looking parts. That was the biggest draw of the Glatorian era for me, as Bionicle had been getting consistently Silver and less Element themed. The guradians seem to have a nice colorful pallet, and at least their launcher is usable in basic construction, but the Toa/Masters.... I dunno. I'll wait for bigger pics for further criticism.

[Still Raindrop]

Count me in as hoping for a shell/add-on combo. I don't want too many new parts, though; just enough to be have a distictive feel, while still being generally useful. I agree with Alton Brown--multitask tools (or shells, in this case) can go a long way. Just one or two new shells or add-ons would be very useful.

No. The defining factors of the Toa was that they each had their own little power, and working as a team was the only way to defeat the enemy. Gali could go underwater to infiltrate a lair

Agreed on the importance of unity, but couldn't all the Toa Mata breathe underwater by the end of 2001, due to the gold masks? Gali was the best swimmer, of course, but I thought they all had the Kaukau. I don't think that changing settings means that the characters don't still have distinctions, etc.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Mariko

[Clone 01354 Productions]

I don't mind the ball system, but I really hope they make a new shell that keeps the old Bionicle aesthetic of pneumatic details and artistic gaps. Bionicle characters never really looked as smooth as the HF shells would make them.

And here's hoping to more elemental looking parts. That was the biggest draw of the Glatorian era for me, as Bionicle had been getting consistently Silver and less Element themed.

Agreed. Hero Factory is too sleek, because their robots, not people. But I disagree with element-oriented pieces: Remember Straak, with the huge ice shoulder pads? Or Vastus with the snakes? It looked awful!! And I realize that I may be in a small minority here, but I am hoping for clone-sets. The Mata all were built basically the same, with only three things different: Color, Weapons, and Masks. And I loved that, because they looked like a team, and like real, organic beings, rather than just specialized robots.

*Speaking of beings, do you think that the Great Beings will appear? We were teased, so much at the end! "Oh look, great beings built this, and this, and created us and---oh, that's all we'll tell you." WHAT?!? Are they gods, or people, or spirits?!

It could work, continuation or reboot. Maybe even better so as a reboot, because they can play more of a role.

[Voxovan]

Agreed. Hero Factory is too sleek, because their robots, not people. But I disagree with element-oriented pieces: Remember Straak, with the huge ice shoulder pads? Or Vastus with the snakes? It looked awful!!

Whaaaaaa, I loved Strakk's look

[CabooseBM]

I want new shells, but only because I'd love some more options. Some more "wide" shells like the paw piece and that other paw piece especially, or add ons in a similar vein,

[Jakura Nuva]

Whaaaaaa, I loved Strakk's look

Same here, and Vastus rocked! I rather enjoyed those additions to the Glatorian - it set them apart from the Toa.

[TheGreatSpirit]

I'm not a fan of new shells. Keeping the original ones, while most of the new armor details come from addons.

Think of it: you could attach the detailed addons to any shell you'd like and it would give them a more bionicle-esque aesthetic.

Nah, I'd prefer a new shell.

Why not both?

Edited August 30, 2014 by TheGreatSpirit

[Aanchir]

Fair point, and of course the CCBS allows for more creativity, but I miss complexity. It was very fun to slide in pins and axles, connect the little bars to them, and allow the model to move by spinning another axle. Now, it is just: "snap this onto this, and put this here." Plus, CCBS tends to squeak a lot.

Personally, I find the CCBS to be every bit as fun as more Technic-based building, but I realize this is completely subjective.

However, what I can never understand is why people think sets have to be EITHER Technic-based OR CCBS-based. Incorporating Technic into the CCBS is not nearly as difficult as people make it out to be. In fact, a lot of the CCBS parts have plenty of Technic connection points, and it confuses me greatly that people think they need more. The 7M beam has two pin holes, the same as the Toa Metru lower leg beam which has the same length. Furthermore, since each beam has a ball in the center, you can add three Technic connection points in an instant using a basic Y-joint. Already, some of this summer's Invasion from Below sets have been close to 50% Technic by piece count.

Indeed, even System-based sets often use Technic extensively for adding structure or functionality, as in the case of many sets from the Legends of Chima theme. So it's not as though a model is restricted to only using one building system or another.

As for ways to improve the CCBS, I wouldn't mind new shells, but there aren't any particular sorts of designs I see a pressing need for. I'm sure the LEGO Group's designers would be better at coming up with new concepts than I am, though.

[Jakura Nuva]

As for ways to improve the CCBS, I wouldn't mind new shells, but there aren't any particular sorts of designs I see a pressing need for. I'm sure the LEGO Group's designers would be better at coming up with new concepts than I am, though.

I think the major concern I have with shells is that, if they go ahead and use the same shells they used previously in the HF sets, then the Bionicle characters will come out looking way too similar to Hero Factory heroes. I rather enjoy the CCBS, and I have no problem with the pieces/styles it utilizes, but when characters from different lines become indistinguishable it becomes a problem for me. I just want Lego to design a slightly modified shell - something that carries across the biomechanical aspect. New apps for the shells would be nice, too, though it's pretty obvious we'll be getting more of those.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Jakura Nuva

[Lord-Vorahk]

As mentioned above, the Kaukau and Miru were eventually claimed by every Toa Mata. In fact, Kopaka had a Hau before he even met Tahu.

For a series about Unity, if the team have to split up every time they find a large lake or a big gap, then that's not unity. Better that they can all fly or all breathe underwater.

[Clone 01354 Productions]

For a series about Unity, if the team have to split up every time they find a large lake or a big gap, then that's not unity. Better that they can all fly or all breathe underwater.

Unity doesn't mean do everything together, it means work as a team to accomplish a task. I don't want my Kopaka to have heat armor, to allow him resistance to heat, or for Onua to have a jetpack; if this happens, then everything that made them unique is taken away. Lewa: "Oh look, I can fly to the top of that mountain and create an avalanche with the wind to crush the Bohrok below!!" Tahu: "We all can." No. Unity is teamwork, not being able to do the exact same things.

[VBBN]

Firstly while I think actually texturing the shells would be nice (for example, imagine a shell with the scale texture that was on Kongu Inika's Kanohi. It would be perfect for a set of reptilian enemies) and far more authentic than just slapping on an add-on, I also think that MOCing is far easier if they just stuck to add-ons. It allows us to repurpose the textures on other shells as well as other parts.

As for the advancements in "toa technology" such as all Toa being able to fly or all toa being underwater, I'm okay with things like that. It was part of what Bionicle interesting- you put 6 characters of different elements into one element, and suddenly they have to adapt to that change. I might be one of the few who absolutely loved 2007, both the Barraki and the Mahri. 2008 was a good concept, but for me the sets became a bit one-note with their ever increasing gray/silver color influences and I grew to dislike the Toa that year. But not because they all had an ability to fly. I would like to continue with this trend, every few years you have extreme changes in a landscape or environment, with occasional years that are set on their island where the Toa can be in their respective elements.

(I'll keep holding out for the day when we have Bionicle/Hero Factory in space...)

As for the building systems, I much preferred the look of Bionicle over the look of Hero Factory, but I do find it easier to MOC with Hero factory, getting the shapes I want is easier, however having to cover up bones can be a daunting task for a larger scale that I usually build, because once you have secured the bones, there is little to no balljoint sections left to work with.

[Clone 01354 Productions]

I would love it if the new Bionicle would at least start out as I want: no silver, no jetpacks, no guns, just elemental colors and power. I may be okay with the technology later on, like the original series, but it needs to be handled better, with some type of explanation. I mean, the Toa Mata were fairly primitive warriors, and then years later, on Voya Nui, they have machine guns. Something needs to be explained here....

[Chro]

Thing is, they weren't actually all that primitive. The surroundings were primitive, sure, but the only reason the Toa were the same way is because they'd lost their memories in the canisters. Years later, they had better equipment, more experience, and most importantly - by the time 2008 was through - they had regained their memories. If the entire story had stayed on the island of Mata Nui with such a tribal tone, then it would make sense for the Toa to remain how they started out. But it didn't, and (fittingly) they didn't.

[Gatanui]

Thing is, they weren't actually all that primitive. The surroundings were primitive, sure, but the only reason the Toa were the same way is because they'd lost their memories in the canisters. Years later, they had better equipment, more experience, and most importantly - by the time 2008 was through - they had regained their memories. If the entire story had stayed on the island of Mata Nui with such a tribal tone, then it would make sense for the Toa to remain how they started out. But it didn't, and (fittingly) they didn't.

As far as I recall, only Kopaka regained enough memories to remember them entering the Toa canisters but not much more than that. Or he did remember everything but the other Toa didn't.

-Gata

Edited August 30, 2014 by Gatanui

[Dorek]

Wasn't that Tahu? I'll need to recheck my books to note on BS01 (since the information doesn't seem to be there...). They slowly began getting their memories back, but only one of them got everything back.

[Aanchir]

I think the major concern I have with shells is that, if they go ahead and use the same shells they used previously in the HF sets, then the Bionicle characters will come out looking way too similar to Hero Factory heroes. I rather enjoy the CCBS, and I have no problem with the pieces/styles it utilizes, but when characters from different lines become indistinguishable it becomes a problem for me. I just want Lego to design a slightly modified shell - something that carries across the biomechanical aspect. New apps for the shells would be nice, too, though it's pretty obvious we'll be getting more of those.

I sort of see what you mean, but at the same time, I am not terribly concerned with it. I am confident that with this building system, sets can stand out mostly by virtue of how they are built. For example, the first wave of Legends of Chima constraction sets clearly belonged to a different theme than characters like Ogrum, even though they used the same torso shell and chest plate.

New motifs are fine, and it seems like the new BIONICLE sets will have some in the form of new add-ons. At the same time, I don't want it to rely on new motifs to define the theme's identity, because that would limit what could be done in sets and MOCs while still letting them fit in as BIONICLE creations. It wouldn't do to have the new BIONICLE's visual style defined more narrowly than Hero Factory's, would it? Creating "BIONICLE-specific" shells and using them throughout the theme just to set it apart from Hero Factory could run that risk.

On a final note, I don't think the theme has to be more "biomechanical-looking" than Hero Factory, because even the Toa of the old BIONICLE theme were not all that biomechanical-looking. All of their specialized details — pistons, accordion joints, gears, etc. — were mechanical in nature. This helped set them apart from the beastly villains they faced: the Bohrok with their white teeth, rounded shape, and rubber brains; the Rahkshi with their smooth, curved faceplates and armor; the Barraki with their smoothly blended color patterns and organic sea creature motifs; etcetera.

In fact, in some respects, many Hero Factory/CCBS parts feel more biological than typical BIONICLE parts, because their smooth, solid surfaces and gentle curves give them a slightly organic look, even though many of the finer geometric details still have a sense of machine-tooled precision. Many of them are nearly as "organic" in appearance as any LEGO part can be before it becomes as specialized as Galidor. I don't think the new BIONICLE should be pushed any further in THAT direction. Better to keep the Toa and Matoran looking ambiguously mechanical than to add details so unquestionably organic that they limit the versatility of the parts in question.

As mentioned above, the Kaukau and Miru were eventually claimed by every Toa Mata. In fact, Kopaka had a Hau before he even met Tahu.

For a series about Unity, if the team have to split up every time they find a large lake or a big gap, then that's not unity. Better that they can all fly or all breathe underwater.

On one hand, I agree that it's good for the characters not to have to split up too often. At the same time, it's also good for any story about teamwork to involve depending on each other's unique strengths, not all having the same strengths. I sort of wonder if the Toa Mata would not have "forgotten" their lessons about unity and teamwork so often if they DID have to depend on each other more often... then again, their transformation into Toa Nuva gave them the PERFECT opportunity to learn to depend on one another, since they could do so without splitting up by sharing their mask powers, and instead the storyline used their increased power as an excuse to split them up YET AGAIN. >_<

With that said, there are times in any story where you NEED to level the playing field so that the characters don't all have to depend on the same character throughout the entire story arc. A storyline like the one in 2007 that takes place entirely in an underwater setting would not have worked at all if the characters all had to depend on one character with the power of water breathing. Likewise, 2008's aerial setting would not have been NEARLY as effective if all the Toa had to follow Lewa around like a group of helpless ducklings.

My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic dealt with a problem like this in the episode "Sonic Rainboom" since its main events took place in Cloudsdale, a city made of clouds that normally only winged creatures like Pegasi can inhabit. Twilight Sparkle used magic to give one character, Rarity, a pair of enchanted wings which became a major plot point later on, and used a simpler spell on herself and the rest of her friends that let them walk on clouds (Fluttershy, of course, was already a Pegasus, albeit a weak flier who prefers life on the ground). This leveled the playing field enough for the setting to work, but Rainbow Dash — an ace flyer and native of Cloudsdale — still got to save the day in the end with her own unique aerial talents.

Avatar: The Last Airbender also does a good job separating unique skills from shared powers. Aang starts out with only the ability of Airbending, and although he later learns Waterbending, Earthbending, and Firebending, he still depends on his friends for both tasks that need more than one bender of a particular element and tasks that their own unique skills and experience are suited to. For instance, Toph, an Earthbender, has a sixth sense that lets her see things others can't by detecting vibrations in the earth. She also becomes the first Earthbender in history to bend metal, something Aang never learns. Zuko, a firebender, can redirect lightning, though he never masters the ability to create it himself the way his sister Azula can. And Katara, a waterbender, can use her waterbending ability to heal injuries. Aang never learns to master these skills to the same extent as his friends, even once he's proficient in using the very same elements.

If the new BIONICLE has to deal at any point with multiple characters who share the same element or mask powers, it would be interesting for it to likewise give them their own unique ways of using those powers, rather than treating them as an all-encompassing "moveset" that any wielder has full access to. There's a difference between having a power and being automatically proficient in all of its uses, and BIONICLE acknowledged this at times, but rarely was the idea used to its fullest potential. Usually it was just a character unlocking a new use for their power — their ability to use that power in that way rarely became a part of their identity like Rainbow Dash's aerial skills or Toph's metalbending.

[Jakura Nuva]

What people need to remember is that fact that, if this does turn out to be a continuation, we will still probably get a secondary color scheme shared by all six Toa Nuva - e.g. gold, silver, etc. Why? Because remember where we left off - all the Nuva had their Adaptive Armor (sure, Tahu was in default form, but nevertheless...). Chances are that's why the new sets will all share the secondary color of gold.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Jakura Nuva

[Lyichir]

What people need to remember is that fact that, if this does turn out to be a continuation, we will still probably get a secondary color scheme shared by all six Toa Nuva - e.g. gold, silver, etc. Why? Because remember where we left off - all the Nuva had their Adaptive Armor (sure, Tahu was in default form, but nevertheless...). Chances are that's why the new sets will all share the secondary color of gold.

Chances are that's not why the new sets share that color, because chances are it's not a continuation. Everything we've seen thus far suggests this is a reboot, which would almost certainly mean no adaptive armor.

[Jakura Nuva]

Chances are that's not why the new sets share that color, because chances are it's not a continuation. Everything we've seen thus far suggests this is a reboot, which would almost certainly mean no adaptive armor.

Whoa whoa whoa - everything points to a reboot? Explain your reasoning.

[Dorek]

There can be five billion reasons why the Toa aren't wearing adaptive armor anymore; even if it is a continuation (which it won't be) the story will have to work around the designs of the sets, not the inverse. If it is a continuation, they could still be wearing Adaptive Armor, but it's not a continuation just because it's something that bears a passing resemblance to a previous story element.

[Jakura Nuva]

There can be five billion reasons why the Toa aren't wearing adaptive armor anymore; even if it is a continuation (which it won't be) the story will have to work around the designs of the sets, not the inverse. If it is a continuation, they could still be wearing Adaptive Armor, but it's not a continuation just because it's something that bears a passing resemblance to a previous story element.

I never said it was a continuation because of the Adaptive Armor. And it is still to be explained why you guys think this will be a reboot.