Nexo Knights 2016

[MAB]

I wouldn't mind a Robin Hood style theme, it doesn't need to be named as Robin Hood. Although I'd prefer the torsos not to have yellow skin printing on them. It should provide lots of nice green torsos, ideal for fleshie heads too.

[Ardelon]

It wasn't just lame heraldry. Most of the bigger builds were pretty boring and used way to many prefab pieces. The factions were brightly colored to the point of looking silly. Lastly the factions were just straight up lame with nothing really new or exciting offered.

I would LOVE a mythical Greek style theme. That would be a close second for me behind a fantasy medieval theme. Harpies, Minotaurs, Satyrs, Medusa, Cerberus... there are tons of fantasy creatures we could get in a theme like that and the Greek soldiers would look cool and be something new as well.

Meh, apart from the heraldry, you said just means it was just as good as any theme that came before - all previous castles used wall and corner panels, most factions since Crusaders were brightly colored, not least Fantasy and Kingdoms, and the 2013 theme offered the same standatd sets as previous themes. Stale maybe, but I think each theme should be judged on its own merits - its noy the fault of the theme that it had over 30 years of previous themes to compete with.

[Legoman123]

I wouldn't mind a Robin Hood style theme, it doesn't need to be named as Robin Hood. Although I'd prefer the torsos not to have yellow skin printing on them. It should provide lots of nice green torsos, ideal for fleshie heads too.

Never thought of that idea but I think that would make for some excellent sets.

[Deathleech]

Meh, apart from the heraldry, you said just means it was just as good as any theme that came before - all previous castles used wall and corner panels, most factions since Crusaders were brightly colored, not least Fantasy and Kingdoms, and the 2013 theme offered the same standatd sets as previous themes. Stale maybe, but I think each theme should be judged on its own merits - its noy the fault of the theme that it had over 30 years of previous themes to compete with.

Ya, except in recent years there have been vast improvements from the Lego group in terms of building techniques, molds, printing, etc. Just because it was ok five or even ten years ago doesn't mean it necessarily looks good now. I mean look at the classic yellow castle. While it has a lot of nostalgia, it looks like utter crap by today's standards. Similarly Lego constantly is going back and enhancing and fixing previous builds. Their Star Wars theme is a great example of this. Ten years ago, the special minifigure molds didn't have any printing. Now Chewabacca, ewoks, etc. all have full multi-colored printing on their head pieces.

[SMC]

^ I agree, I didn't think 2013 castle was as bad as everyone said but its was not as good as other lines around the same time.

[lightningtiger]

^ I agree, I didn't think 2013 castle was as bad as everyone said but its was not as good as other lines around the same time.

Yeah, some of Kingdom's was done better.....mainly the darker side of the kingdom.

[thetang22]

One of the things I wasn't crazy about with Castle 2013's main castle was the abundance of blue pieces. I think that should be reserved for heraldry and a few other select pieces to give the whole piece a hint of faction color. Instead they made it bleed with blue all over the place, and looked pretty hokey.

I would much rather 2016 go back to a limited amount of color, for a more authentic look.

Edited February 17, 2015 by thetang22

[SMC]

^ Yeah I would agree with that and on that note it would be great if we got 2 differnt armys with the castle and both there color flags and what not and you can pick what side gets the castle and use they copies.

[thetang22]

Another thing I've thought about recently is something I doubt would ever happen: choosing to do castle interiors rather than full castles.

While I enjoy a castle just as much as the next person, one thing Castle has always lacked was quality interiors. We've always seen whole buildings from the outside perspective, whether it's a castle, a tower, or a farm house. Something these all have in common is they are scaled down considerably for the sake of size/cost. By scaling down, it always comes at the expense of more thorough and detailed interiors.

I've never seen an official lego castle in which I could honestly envision appropriately sized rooms fitting into the castle, such as a thrown room, a kitchen/banquet hall, the King's bed chambers, the guard barracks, and so on. There are some sets in which we might get tiny little hints of these features...but they are always sacrificed for the exterior. At a glance, someone might say it's easier to imagine sieging a castle than it is to have conflicts on the inside of the castle...but come on....isn't Lego all about using your imagination?

Imagine a throne room set in which the castle has been breached, and someone is trying to overthrow the king. You could have soldiers for the king, as well as enemies of the invading party, and it would be hand to hand combat...no siege engines required. The throne room could also serve double duty for when you would want to play non-combat situations, such as dubbing a new knight (or a hundred other non-combat story situations).

Perhaps there could be the Kitchen and/or Banquet Hall, and it's not based on combat at all. It could be more like the villager sets, with this one featuring the villagers working in the castle, preparing a big feast for the festival. It could be a medieval kitchen connected with a doorway into the banquet table room, featuring noble guests and dignitaries.

How about a stable? That's easy enough to include a few guards/Knights, as well as a handful of horses.

The tavern/Inn is a favorite spot for medieval settings. Again...I'm talking about the interior here, so that people could have their group of adventurers meet up before exploring the INSIDE of that cave with treasures in it, or return to after the adventure. There's a chance encounter with local thugs while you are minding your own business.

So many stories that can be experienced if Lego would take a chance on producing Castle interiors, instead of almost always relying on exteriors as the primary focus. It's not to say you couldn't also produce some of the traditional sets as well (for the umpteenth time...), but introducing a fresh build perspective for Castle might be refreshing.

Edited February 17, 2015 by thetang22

[SirBlake]

Im not sure the focus on interiors is a realistic expectation, but I love that idea.

[thetang22]

Im not sure the focus on interiors is a realistic expectation

And the question is: Why? (This is more of a rhetorical question for Lego)

I get that doing the same old thing with minor/moderate cosmetic changes is the safe thing to do...but what about challenging the status quo? Star Wars has been finding some success with interior settings lately, why not Castle? If the build inspires stories and adventures to be had, isn't there a chance it could see success?

Edited February 17, 2015 by thetang22

[Blakstone]

I think interiors is a great thing to MOC, but LEGO is not likely to do it. It is very hard for them to do any civilian sets at all.

The following quote is on the 2007 Castle line specifically but the 2016 line would have the same constraints and pressures:

"Throughout all the testing we have done for Castle we have included several Civilian style sets for the kids to review with the rest of our proposals. Unfortunately when it comes to the ranking of products they always come at the bottom of the pile, even when we have tried to spice them up by including some sort of battle or attack scenario to the products, they just never rank very highly. Kids really prefer just to have a big Castle to protect and a load of Battle machines and vehicles.

Also if we did a Civilian set at retail, it is more than likely that it would be the last one kids would pick on their collection list and they may never actually get that far. We can’t afford to have products sat on shelves that are very slow to perform as we have limited shelf space in the different stores. A box like that could take the place of a Star Wars or Exo Force item etc which could sell five times the volume very quickly. Generally if products aren’t seen to perform in the first month or two they can be very easily dropped from the assortment."

And the question is: Why? (This is more of a rhetorical question for Lego)

I get that doing the same old thing with minor/moderate cosmetic changes is the safe thing to do...but what about challenging the status quo? Star Wars has been finding some success with interior settings lately, why not Castle? If the build inspires stories and adventures to be had, isn't there a chance it could see success?

Star Wars has had battle scenes indoors. That is similar to the Mines of Moria where you get the idea that it is inside without having to build all of it. But to have a banquet hall for Castle would not have enough action for kids. AFOLs might want to recreate a Red Wedding though.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Blakstone

[SirBlake]

I'm just going off of past sets. It's not something they have really done in non-licensed themes. I'd love to be wrong about that, but that's my perception.

[thetang22]

I'd like to see them try it in at least 1 set. Do an interior throne room...you can still have plenty of soldiers, some royalty, and the like.

I'm having some issue with a concept I've noticed with Lego castle sets in the past 10-15 years. When I was a kid, a castle seemed like it would come with soldiers of the caste's faction....maybe a prisoner or ghost, and that seemed to be about it. Nowadays it seems like Lego thinks they have to have conflict in every set they sell. A castle being sieged....a tower/gatehouse being attacked....a carriage being ambushed.

Why do they encourage the spoon fed culture of today's youth by primarily producing sets with an obvious conflict? Is there no imagination left in the youth of the last 10-15 years? This mentality seems to be preventing Lego from producing any Castle sets that aren't inspired by Hollywood explosions and a short attention span.

I had lots of Castle sets as a child, and very few of them came with obvious conflicts...but that didn't stop me from using my imagination and having fun.

[Blakstone]

That is the chicken and the egg concept. Is it LEGO's responsibility to tone down violence in society? Would it make a difference if they tried to?

While the obvious answer is that a corporation does not have a responsibility to do that, we can see that LEGO accepts some of the responsibility. This is why modern war is off limits and modern police do not have weapons.

I think the change to having good and bad soldiers is market driven and LEGO is responding to it.

However, I always liked the blurred lines with the Black Falcons, Crusaders (Lion Knights), and Forestmen. The Forestmen and Lion Knights would switch places as the hero and the villain. The Black Falcons would be rivals, not evil.

However, the 2013 Castle has evil looking heads for all the Dragon soldiers. I bought most of those sets on clearance only but I would even out the good and bad heads amongst them.

I hope that 2016 brings more nuance between the factions. Even if it is Fantasy, Dwarves could be the allies one time or the rivals to the humans.

[thetang22]

That is the chicken and the egg concept. Is it LEGO's responsibility to tone down violence in society? Would it make a difference if they tried to?

Eh...this gets into an entirely larger debate that could be discussed for pages and pages and pages. You comment that they are responding to the market...but that's also a pretty tainted situation. The market requests more conflict/violence, but that's also due to being conditioned with more and more conflict/violence in pop culture. When youth is conditioned that conflict/violence is the only cool option wherever they look in media, it's going to be hard for them to pick something different from that. It truly is the chicken/egg scenario. The market changed pretty quickly to be more conflict/violence-based, but at the same time, you didn't have people blindly asking for more conflict/violence out of the blue. So who is responsible for starting the trend? The people buying, or the companies deciding what content to provide the market with?

As a kid, I remember wanting a variety of castle sets. I didn't just want to get everything war-based. I wanted to get the castle, along with the blacksmiths shop, along with the Magicians shop, along with the carriage, along with the boat, etc, etc, etc... Getting that variety of stuff helped flesh out the world of Castle Legos in my mind. However, it seems the only way to get some of those types of sets made now is when there is an "Attack on <insert classic, non-combat-focused Castle set>". Sure, kids are going to want to get Knights and soldiers...but they don't have to be beaten over the head with it in EVERY set.

Edited February 17, 2015 by thetang22

[Deathleech]

Kids really prefer just to have a big Castle to protect and a load of Battle machines and vehicles.

This sums it up perfectly. You gotta remember the sets are mainly targeted at kids. While us AFOLs may love a banquet room, taverns, stables, etc., I can't imagine kids being that interested. I mean do you really think kids would enjoy cooking up a goose in the kitchen and serving it to the king in the banquet hall and then putting him to sleep in his chambers more, OR a castle being besieged with catapults and bolt throwers by an enemy force? Sure you could add some enemies who have breached the interior, but even sthen it's not that much more fun. You are missing a lot of the play features like the draw bridge and catapults which MUST be a big seller for Lego, otherwise why would they include them in almost every set with conflict?

Also interior sets seem to always just have a small section of the interior, never a full room. Look at the LotR and SW sets. Because of this they catch a lot of flak from the people they should be the biggest hit with, which is AFOLs. A banquet hall or stables would probably be even worse. What do you have there? A couple stables, or a floor and wall with a large table and chairs? You don't have the iconic, imaginative scenes from say Star Wars or LotR to help sell these sets. While I have seen some AMAZING MOCs from people on these forums for castle interiors, they also use a ton of pieces. I can't imagine a kid wanting a $100 banquest hall room with stain glass windows and a few enemy soldiers attacking when they could get a small castle to attack/defend with for the same price.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Deathleech

[Etzel]

It's not totally impossible with castle interior sets though:

I know it's not exactly what you want, but it does show that it can be done nicely.

[Artifex]

Princesses may be a good option for interiors and other Castle-like sets. If done properly, it can be what Friends is for City.

[thetang22]

This sums it up perfectly. You gotta remember the sets are mainly targeted at kids. While us AFOLs may love a banquet room, taverns, stables, etc., I can't imagine kids being that interested. I mean do you really think kids would enjoy cooking up a goose in the kitchen and serving it to the king in the banquet hall and then putting him to sleep in his chambers more, OR a castle being besieged with catapults and bolt throwers by an enemy force? Sure you could add some enemies who have breached the interior, but even sthen it's not that much more fun. You are missing a lot of the play features like the draw bridge and catapults which MUST be a big seller for Lego, otherwise why would they include them in almost every set with conflict?

Also interior sets seem to always just have a small section of the interior, never a full room. Look at the LotR and SW sets. Because of this they catch a lot of flak from the people they should be the biggest hit with, which is AFOLs. A banquet hall or stables would probably be even worse. What do you have there? A couple stables, or a floor and wall with a large table and chairs? You don't have the iconic, imaginative scenes from say Star Wars or LotR to help sell these sets. While I have seen some AMAZING MOCs from people on these forums for castle interiors, they also use a ton of pieces. I can't imagine a kid wanting a $100 banquest hall room with stain glass windows and a few enemy soldiers attacking when they could get a small castle to attack/defend with for the same price.

Where is your sense of imagination? A lot of the "boring setting" examples that you are providing are due to not approaching it with the outside of the box mentality.

You mention all these sorts of play features of a castle being attacked, and say that an indoor setting couldn't possibly have the same level of play features. I ask the question again - why not? An exterior setting for castle certainly has a variety of play features...and we know that because Lego has been providing those same sorts of features over and over and over again for years. But how does that mean the indoor setting can't have just as interesting play features? Perhaps because we aren't used to the idea, and Lego rarely every experiments with the idea in Castle lines? How about:

- collapsable chandalier

- Hidden passageway/room (gotta turn a candlestick to access)

- Hidden Pit/Trap in front of a throne for unwelcome guests

- a haunted bed chamber with ghosts hiding in the wardrobe closet

Add to that all the features that aren't exclusive to an exterior setting, like traditional sword fights....defending your king, etc...

Maybe you even have play/story features that are unique to the theme. Such as - what if there are strange portals that are popping up all through the kindgom, and some of these portals are popping up INSIDE the castle!!! You have to defend the castle, while trying to find a way to close the portals, that way the castle isn't overruns with <insert dangerous bad guy type>.

That's just a short list coming off the top of my head when I'm not exactly in the most creative frame of mind. To comment on what you said as well: these sets are aimed at kids, and kids are supposed to be the age group with the largest sense of imagination. If I can envision all sorts of possibilities as an adult, why shouldn't a child be able to go nuts with it? There's honestly probably a bajillion ideas for how to make it appealing to both those looking for combat, as well as those wanting a good building experience with some character from medieval times.

Also, don't discount the idea of non-conflict uses in a Lego theme. You mention nobody wanting to serve dinner or put a King to sleep in his bed chambers....but that's the sorta stuff that my sisters did all the time when they were playing with their toys when they were younger. Rarely ever did I see Barbies do any sort of combat-related play. Lego Castle shouldn't just be assumed to be a "boy's toy for recreating medieval warfare".

Edited February 17, 2015 by thetang22

[Blakstone]

Yes, but LEGO is focusing on girl style play in the minidoll lines such as the Sleeping Beauty line that Etzel posted. By dividing their focus between boy themes and girl themes, it actually drives more conflict into the boy sets. I agree that I wish it was the other way though.

And LEGO develops a wide range of sets for the play testing. That is why I linked to an entire interview from a Castle theme developer.

The Medieval Market Village has interiors as well as the Kingdom Joust set. Those are D2C and appealed to older kids and adults. But they could barely interest kids with a blacksmith set even after they included an enemy soldier.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Blakstone

[Deathleech]

Where is your sense of imagination? A lot of the "boring setting" examples that you are providing are due to not approaching it with the outside of the box mentality.

You mention all these sorts of play features of a castle being attacked, and say that an indoor setting couldn't possibly have the same level of play features. I ask the question again - why not? An exterior setting for castle certainly has a variety of play features...and we know that because Lego has been providing those same sorts of features over and over and over again for years. But how does that mean the indoor setting can't have just as interesting play features? Perhaps because we aren't used to the idea, and Lego rarely every experiments with the idea in Castle lines? How about:

- collapsable chandalier

- Hidden passageway/room (gotta turn a candlestick to access)

- Hidden Pit/Trap in front of a throne for unwelcome guests

- a haunted bed chamber with ghosts hiding in the wardrobe closet

Add to that all the features that aren't exclusive to an exterior setting, like traditional sword fights....defending your king, etc...

I actually considered several of those ideas, like the chandelier falling in the banquet hall. You know what I thought of right after that? How many pieces it would take to make this "simple" play feature. The same goes for a trap door/pit. You are talking literally hundreds of pieces devoted to one play feature. A catapult plopped on the top of a castle tower takes like 5-10, maybe 50 pieces tops depending how elaborate it is?

Plus, as I said before, doing interior rooms is tough for Lego. Look at Mines of Moria. I actually LOVED that set. I thought it had tons fun play features for kids like the doors breaking open, pillars falling, and tomb catapult. A lot of other people on these forums hated how "disconnected" it felt. They complained about it not having a base, all the pieces not connecting to form a room, etc. I imagine the exact same problem being present with many castle interior sets. A baseplate is gonna run anywhere from $8-15 alone. A wall is another few hundred pieces, and then you have to fill it with things like chairs, tables, beds, chandeliers, etc. And even then you aren't making a complete room. So which do you think kids would want more, a single room out of a castle for $100, or an entire castle exterior for $100? It doesn't matter if the piece count is the exact same, what matters is the perceived value. Using the Middle Earth sets as an example again, Lonely Mountain has a HUGE dragon that used a ton of plastic and probably cost Lego just as much, if not more to produce than any other $130 set they have made. Yet people constantly remark how bad of a deal it is simply because the piece count is so low.

That's just a short list coming off the top of my head when I'm not exactly in the most creative frame of mind. To comment on what you said as well: these sets are aimed at kids, and kids are supposed to be the age group with the largest sense of imagination. If I can envision all sorts of possibilities as an adult, why shouldn't a child be able to go nuts with it?

Apparently kids don't want this. Did you read the report from Lego? Every time they have tried to do interiors or stuff focused more on civilian life it has performed the hands down worst in testing groups. Lego isn't going to keep trying, or put out a set like this and take a risk when they can instead stick to a formula they know works and improve on it.

Also, don't discount the idea of non-conflict uses in a Lego theme. You mention nobody wanting to serve dinner or put a King to sleep in his bed chambers....but that's the sorta stuff that my sisters did all the time when they were playing with their toys when they were younger. Rarely ever did I see Barbies do any sort of combat-related play. Lego Castle shouldn't just be assumed to be a "boy's toy for recreating medieval warfare".

Not to get into a sexist debate here, but girls are vastly different than boys. It's been proven time and time again. Notice how almost none of the Friends sets have conflict in them? Yet almost EVERY Pirate, Space, Castle, Chima, Ninjago, and even a lot of City ones in recent years do? Barbies don't even come with weapons or enemies per say, they come with clothing for dress up, cars to go shopping in, pets to take care of, and food to cook. While not always the case, these are generally things girls gravitate towards.

[thetang22]

I actually considered several of those ideas, like the chandelier falling in the banquet hall. You know what I thought of right after that? How many pieces it would take to make this "simple" play feature. The same goes for a trap door/pit. You are talking literally hundreds of pieces devoted to one play feature. A catapult plopped on the top of a castle tower takes like 5-10, maybe 50 pieces tops depending how elaborate it is?

Again, I have to ask, where is your sense of imagination and thinking outside the box? You just said it would take "literally hundreds of pieces devoted to one play feature". HUNDREDS?!?! Do you seriously think it would require that many pieces? With all due respect, I honestly don't even know what to say to that.

I've seen the arguments for the Friends/Princess lines. I get that girls can be vastly different than boys, but much of that is taught behavior. I grew up in a pretty large family (3 girls, 2 boys), and each of my sisters enjoyed playing with the Castle legos like I did when they were kids. At the same time, my older sister convinced me to play Barbies when I was young, from time to time with her. Its all about the sense of imagination (something that Lego is supposed to promote).

Yes, I saw the report mentioned above about what kids want. I get what is being said in the reports. I also think the response to it is the sort of thing that ads to the problem. The problem: kids have such short attention spans today, due to being completely destroyed with sensory overload. They have a hard time appreciating something that doesn't have a shiny bell or whistle attached to it to grab their attention.

[Deathleech]

Again, I have to ask, where is your sense of imagination and thinking outside the box? You just said it would take "literally hundreds of pieces devoted to one play feature". HUNDREDS?!?! Do you seriously think it would require that many pieces? With all due respect, I honestly don't even know what to say to that.

Yes, because how else are you going to make a trap or pit of any substance without making a hole first for the figures to fall into? Even a square pit 5 or 6 bricks high is going to use up around 50+ brickls alone. The Rancor pit was a huge $60 set and that wasn't even fully enclosed (I know a pit doesn't need to be near this big for one figure to fall into, but you get the idea). I mean sure you could make a trap door that goes no where, but how fun is that? As for the chandelier, even the simplest ones I have seen MOC'd use dozens upon dozens of pieces, and that's not even including the wall/ceiling or mechanism to hold it up.

I've seen the arguments for the Friends/Princess lines. I get that girls can be vastly different than boys, but much of that is taught behavior. I grew up in a pretty large family (3 girls, 2 boys), and each of my sisters enjoyed playing with the Castle legos like I did when they were kids. At the same time, my older sister convinced me to play Barbies when I was young, from time to time with her. Its all about the sense of imagination (something that Lego is supposed to promote).

Yes, I saw the report mentioned above about what kids want. I get what is being said in the reports. I also think the response to it is the sort of thing that ads to the problem. The problem: kids have such short attention spans today, due to being completely destroyed with sensory overload. They have a hard time appreciating something that doesn't have a shiny bell or whistle attached to it to grab their attention.

Regardless, it's not Lego's job to change the world. Their job is making toys for children that in turn bring a profit for themselves. It seems you are thinking about this too much from an adult prospective. I know it's hard not to, trust me. I actually would love to see some more detailed Castle sets that aren't the standard carriage/gate/castle. I loved MMV and the Windmill they made, some of my favorite Castle sets in recent years. With that said though, Lego isn't going to suddenly give us Castle kitchens or bed chambers simply because your sisters liked Castle sets growing up, or because kids are spoon fed what to do in sets nowadays. I see this arguement all the time but people have to understand their specific family might not be the norm. The same way I have come to grips with the fact not everyone, adult or child, buys Lego to army build like I do. Hence the lack of army builders in a lot of themes. For every one family like yours, there were probably 10x as many where girls who stuck to traditional dolls and boys who stuck to traditional Castle. It's not like Lego hasn't tested or tried your idea before. I am sure they have and it simply didn't work for them.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Deathleech

[Bobbtom]

This sums it up perfectly. You gotta remember the sets are mainly targeted at kids. While us AFOLs may love a banquet room, taverns, stables, etc., I can't imagine kids being that interested. I mean do you really think kids would enjoy cooking up a goose in the kitchen and serving it to the king in the banquet hall and then putting him to sleep in his chambers more, OR a castle being besieged with catapults and bolt throwers by an enemy force? Sure you could add some enemies who have breached the interior, but even sthen it's not that much more fun. You are missing a lot of the play features like the draw bridge and catapults which MUST be a big seller for Lego, otherwise why would they include them in almost every set with conflict?

Also interior sets seem to always just have a small section of the interior, never a full room. Look at the LotR and SW sets. Because of this they catch a lot of flak from the people they should be the biggest hit with, which is AFOLs. A banquet hall or stables would probably be even worse. What do you have there? A couple stables, or a floor and wall with a large table and chairs? You don't have the iconic, imaginative scenes from say Star Wars or LotR to help sell these sets. While I have seen some AMAZING MOCs from people on these forums for castle interiors, they also use a ton of pieces. I can't imagine a kid wanting a $100 banquest hall room with stain glass windows and a few enemy soldiers attacking when they could get a small castle to attack/defend with for the same price.

Off topic, but your first point applies to several LOTR/Hobbit sets.