Unrest in the Forest, Day 2: Fly By Night

[mostlytechnic]

You're making this way to complicated. Say the scum come to you saying "I'm the vig". All you have to do is post "someone claimed vig to me". If it's a lie, and the vig is actually a stump, then the stump can simply say "that's a lie because i was the vig". Bingo, scum caught, day saved...so easy. You're kinda clouding this situation by suggesting stumps should claim.

Except you're making one BIG assumption - that the stumps will always be here and able to talk. Just like we were surprised to have them around today, how do you know they won't get removed or silenced or otherwise unable to share later.

[Piratedave84]

That's interesting. So if we use that situation as an example, then we have a group of Maples who used one of their greatest assets to cover up a Day 1 lynch. That just seems...unnecessary. Even if Alistar was scum, wouldn't it have been much more useful to use the play later on in the game? Maybe when there is only a handful left? It seems to me like it maybe was a move of desperation, not a move of clever strategy.

Again going from memory, I think we janitored a townie fairly early to guarantee another townie lynch the next day.

[Hinckley]

Tell me. Day One, you were subtly protective of Bruce in private after I accused him. That raised a flag. I may be wrong, but I want it to be known out here.

Same type of flag I got for you subtly undermining the Alastair vote. It's a fair suspicion. Let's tell everyone: I feel that Bruce is an Oak. Feel better?

Except you're making one BIG assumption - that the stumps will always be here and able to talk. Just like we were surprised to have them around today, how do you know they won't get removed or silenced or otherwise unable to share later.

Correct. As mentioned, it may only last one game day or have other limitations.

[Piratedave84]

Except you're making one BIG assumption - that the stumps will always be here and able to talk. Just like we were surprised to have them around today, how do you know they won't get removed or silenced or otherwise unable to share later.

I REALLY hope I can stick around for more than one day!

[Tamamono]

You're making this way to complicated. Say the scum come to you saying "I'm the vig". All you have to do is post "someone claimed vig to me". If it's a lie, and the vig is actually a stump, then the stump can simply say "that's a lie because i was the vig". Bingo, scum caught, day saved...so easy. You're kinda clouding this situation by suggesting stumps should claim.

That leads to listing roles we know we still have, which will tip off the scum. One of the great things about an insulated town bloc is that scum never know what we still have. If the leader of the bloc comes out and says "Ok, we have a cop, doctor, vig..." then the scum know what to prepare for and maybe even how to narrow them down. If the stumps claim, however, yeah, it shows the scum ONE role they don't have to worry about, but then that comes instead of ALL the roles. Get it?

Not investigation results, silly. That's not what you asked. Maples would probably want to know whether killing a PR will void their action, since Oaks still can talk the next day.

What I asked at first was for stumps to reveal their roles, but then realized that if they were the doctor/blocker/something else like that, it would be unwise. I then said informative roles should reveal their roles and results if they have any.

[jluck]

How?

Let's play a quick scenerio or two out. Scum hear that the investigator is dead, they now know the only way they can be "revealed" is via their death. That gives them much more freedom with contacting people, with little fear of being found out. Scum hear the blocker is dead. They can now target bigger townie players, without fear of wasting an attack. The scum hear the vig is dead, they now know exactly who will die at night and can distance themselves from scum before they turn up scum.

Scenerios mean advantage: scum.

I've answered your questions so please humor me and answer one of mine. Give me a time when it would be a greater advantage for the stumps to reveal their roles on the board (keeping in mind that I've already pointed out the stumps could wait for a claim and catch scum red handed)?

[Hinckley]

Let's play a quick scenerio or two out. Scum hear that the investigator is dead, they now know the only way they can be "revealed" is via their death. That gives them much more freedom with contacting people, with little fear of being found out. Scum hear the blocker is dead. They can now target bigger townie players, without fear of wasting an attack. The scum hear the vig is dead, they now know exactly who will die at night and can distance themselves from scum before they turn up scum.

Scenerios mean advantage: scum.

I've answered your questions so please humor me and answer one of mine. Give me a time when it would be a greater advantage for the stumps to reveal their roles on the board (keeping in mind that I've already pointed out the stumps could wait for a claim and catch scum red handed)?

And if the Scum have a rolecop, then they know who they're killing and we don't. What do you think of that?

[jluck]

Except you're making one BIG assumption - that the stumps will always be here and able to talk. Just like we were surprised to have them around today, how do you know they won't get removed or silenced or otherwise unable to share later.

^^^this. I've made a mistake in my assumptions, I didn't give thought to this scenario. You're right, I'm man enough to admit when I get tunnel vision.

[Fugazi]

What I asked at first was for stumps to reveal their roles, but then realized that if they were the doctor/blocker/something else like that, it would be unwise. I then said informative roles should reveal their roles and results if they have any.

You're evading the question. You asked if dead Oaks still get night results they can reveal the next day. This is crucial information for Maples.

Actually, you wouldn't have gotten a result if you had died, would you?

[Tamamono]

You're evading the question. You asked if dead Oaks still get night results they can reveal the next day. This is crucial information for Maples.

No, I'm answering it. The part you're asking about is included in my suggestion that informative roles claim. What's the point of having the cop claim if they have no results, etc.

It's also crucial to Oaks.

Look, being conservative with information has its place, but by and large, the more town knows, the less places Maples can hide. If you don't want things to be revealed, then that probably says a lot about you. What are you hiding, Sammy?

[Yzalirk]

Oh, so then you're ok with the vig claiming in public so the maples can kill him tonight?

Again, you're trying to put words in my mouth.

That is entirely up to the vigilante to come out and say who he/she attacked.

[Fugazi]

Look, being conservative with information has its place, but by and large, the more town knows, the less places Maples can hide. If you don't want things to be revealed, then that probably says a lot about you. What are you hiding, Sammy?

Reread my posts. I never said that I don't want anything revealed. I only emphasized that you were asking for information that would be very valuable to Maples (and not so much to Oaks. We can wait until our PRs have a very important result before they choose to reveal anything).

[Piratedave84]

Again, you're trying to put words in my mouth.

That is entirely up to the vigilante to come out and say who he/she attacked.

Why did you PM me?

[Lady K]

Again, you're trying to put words in my mouth.

That is entirely up to the vigilante to come out and say who he/she attacked.

But why would you the vig do this? It would be a death sentence. So why would you bring it up, almost like you were suggesting it?

Sorry, why would the vig do this? I'm not suggesting that Hazel is the vig.

[jluck]

Why did you PM me?

I hope no one got the impression I was advocating we claim to the stumps. I stated that if anyone claimed to us, we could mention it on the board and the stumps could refute the claim there. PMing the stumps puts them in a very awkward spot, especially if you give them info they shouldn't know.

[Hinckley]

You're evading the question. You asked if dead Oaks still get night results they can reveal the next day. This is crucial information for Maples.

When I host, I don't give info to roles that died during the Night. That's just me, though.

the more town knows, the less places Maples can hide.

And again, if they have ways of finding info (rolecop, tracker) then they can get info that we wouldn't know. So it's possible the Stumps claiming could benefit us. That's a possibility.

But why would you the vig do this? It would be a death sentence. So why would you bring it up, almost like you were suggesting it?

Sorry, why would the vig do this? I'm not suggesting that Hazel is the vig.

Where's our in-depth analysis of who Alastair was in cahoots with?

[Piratedave84]

I hope no one got the impression I was advocating we claim to the stumps. I stated that if anyone claimed to us, we could mention it on the board and the stumps could refute the claim there. PMing the stumps puts them in a very awkward spot, especially if you give them info they shouldn't know.

He PM'd me before it was determined I couldn't answer; was fishing a lot.

[jluck]

When I host, I don't give info to roles that died during the Night. That's just me, though.

And again, if they have ways of finding info (rolecop, tracker) then they can get info that we wouldn't know. So it's possible the Stumps claiming could benefit us. That's a possibility.

(Snip)

Ok, rational me back after the tangent. If we're playing probabilities, what should the stumps do? Claim or stay quiet? Now that I've entertained the chance of losing them tomorrow, I don't want to lose any valuable info. On the other hand, I do believe there is a sizable risk in telling the maples what roles are gone. The perfect scenerio is that no role players were lost, which has very little risk in its being revealed. Then tomorrow we will see if the stumps are still around. Then we would know more about what hand were playing with.

[Tamamono]

They claim if they're informative roles with results. If not, they stay quiet.

[Hinckley]

Ok, rational me back after the tangent. If we're playing probabilities, what should the stumps do? Claim or stay quiet? Now that I've entertained the chance of losing them tomorrow, I don't want to lose any valuable info. On the other hand, I do believe there is a sizable risk in telling the maples what roles are gone. The perfect scenerio is that no role players were lost, which has very little risk in its being revealed. Then tomorrow we will see if the stumps are still around. Then we would know more about what hand were playing with.

I don't know. I keep going back and forth. Remember, if the Scum have a role cop, they may already know what role one of them had. I've seen day role cops. That really smart and handsome Scum Viking we were talking about earlier who played investigator was basically a day role cop. I usually err on the side of caution that all info on the table is best for the Town. Scum have a lot of ways of learning things that the Town might never know or realize they've picked up. I really do think it's helpful to thoroughly discuss all possibilities before we decide on anything.

Adelaide loves to lurk.

They claim if they're informative roles with results. If not, they stay quiet.

There's an idea...

Help me out. Why does that work?

[Yzalirk]

Why did you PM me?

That was earlier because that was before Elder Alden announced that Stumps cannot message living tree. And since you know, why bother asking?

But why would you the vig do this? It would be a death sentence. So why would you bring it up, almost like you were suggesting it?

Sorry, why would the vig do this? I'm not suggesting that Hazel is the vig.

Again, you are jumping the conclusions without evidence.

When did I ever claim to be the vigilante? You are clearly trying to hint at that I could be the vigilante and I'm not sure why. I also get the impression you didn't even read anything I have said but are just basing off what others have said. I asked if either Lauren or Buck could have been attacked by either a Maple or a vigilante.

You know what, I'll just make it easier for you since, like I said, I don't think you even from the beginning.

Wow, so Alastair was Neutral? I'm also not sure what to make of Lauren and Buck becoming stumps. So were both Maple attacks or was one a Vigilante attack?

So many questions to be asked...

And Berry, I believe the stumps can talk but can't do anything.

I also bolded the part where I asked just so you don't miss it.

[MagPiesRUs]

I would suggest that the stumps start PMing each other and decide whether or not it's worth revealing any information they have.

A concern is that today's stumps may disappear tomorrow, as this passage may suggest:

“Not so fast. It seems there are some other trees we get to take down tonight,” Mr Big Chief says. “We’ll fell them tonight, then come tomorrow to pick them up. Get to work.”

So it may be a good idea to be more liberal with stump info for today. Tomorrow, we'll know how long treestumps last and will thus have a better idea of how to proceed with stump knowledge.

[Lady K]

When I host, I don't give info to roles that died during the Night. That's just me, though.

And again, if they have ways of finding info (rolecop, tracker) then they can get info that we wouldn't know. So it's possible the Stumps claiming could benefit us. That's a possibility.

Where's our in-depth analysis of who Alastair was in cahoots with?

There is way too much information to quote here. However, I do suggest everyone reread what has been said from Day 2 so far and then go back to the middle part of Day 1 (after all the chit chat and fluff) and read till the end. Interesting contradictions from what some trees have said on both days. For instance, I did learn that Lauren did not rally the lynch against Alistair (she voted 7th), but you lead the rally against Alistair even though you voted for Larry Larch till almost the end and then switched your vote to Alistair at the 11th vote.

Alistair did indeed defend Hazel several times as well as voting for me immediately after I voted for Hazel even though he kept suggesting he might still vote for Hazel. I still believe they are both maples based on yesterdays posts. It's just my opinion.

That was earlier because that was before Elder Alden announced that Stumps cannot message living tree. And since you know, why bother asking?

Again, you are jumping the conclusions without evidence.

When did I ever claim to be the vigilante? You are clearly trying to hint at that I could be the vigilante and I'm not sure why. I also get the impression you didn't even read anything I have said but are just basing off what others have said. I asked if either Lauren or Buck could have been attacked by either a Maple or a vigilante.

You know what, I'll just make it easier for you since, like I said, I don't think you even from the beginning.

I also bolded the part where I asked just so you don't miss it.

Hazel, you are twisting my words again the same way you did yesterday and the same way Alistair was twisting the words of other trees. I won't get into a lengthy argument with you again. If you had read my post carefully then you would have seen that I specifically stated that my typo was not suggesting you were the vig.

[jluck]

I would suggest that the stumps start PMing each other and decide whether or not it's worth revealing any information they have.

A concern is that today's stumps may disappear tomorrow, as this passage may suggest:

So it may be a good idea to be more liberal with stump info for today. Tomorrow, we'll know how long treestumps last and will thus have a better idea of how to proceed with stump knowledge.

Good find, I think this confirms the stumps will disappear. If the stumps feel they have info relavent enough to share, they should share at their own discretion.

[Lady K]

I'm not comfortable with the stumps giving info based on power roles or results. I feel it will help the scum too much. I really want to know how the two stumps feel about this issue? Yes, the info could help us oaks, but I fear it will help the maples more. There seems to be quite a push from some trees for that information. In the past, information is lost when a tree dies, so how is it any different now?