Unrest in the Forest - Day 3: Caress of Steel

[Bob]

Question: Do we think there is a way for the scum to appear as "oak" stumps? Could that be how they are balanced? Still no one has commented on what they might have to assist them in the place of our stumps. Some of the stumps have continued to ping me. If all deaths tomorrow show up Oak... I don't know. It might be a crazy theory. I hope it is. But I'm just trying to imagine what they might be able to do to counter-act our potential advantage (though the stumps haven't really proven much of an advantage so far in all honesty, so perhaps nothing)!

An interesting theory...

It's a HIGHLY frowned upon version because it makes the mod not trusted. In fact, they've got a whole page over there on the topic (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bastard_Mod) and it's best said as "A common shorthand definition of a bastard mod game is that it is designed mostly for the moderator's amusement more than that of the players." Since that's not how we do things here, I can't see the stumps as being anything other than true Oaks. And that's the only realistic way to treat them going forward. Any knowledge I get will be shared with them so they can pull everything together - same as if I had a trusted town block to share with.

...and it's actually one that we have seen before on these very forums in Witch Hunt Mafia (a very early game) in which every dead player turned up as scum even though there were no scum in the game. It was meant to highlight the paranoia and craziness that occurred as a result of the Spanish Inquisition. There have been many odd games, including a game with only scum and one townie. It's possible that something like this where everyone turns up Oak, even the scum, is being tried here, but it's highly unlikely. If the trend of only Oaks being discovered continues further down, I'd suggest maybe returning to this idea.

[badboytje88]

Well the codes thing is all nice and cute but if not everyone sends in their role it's no use at all. It's a shame the stumps don't get to pm...

[Mencot]

Simon was verified as an Oak by the investigator, same as me.

"He was verified as town, so he must be scum"

I'd like to propose that all stumps just stay dead.

Ofcourse you would like that because the stumps mess with your plans, scum. I also heard that before from someone else, maybe your buddy.

And how exactly do we know that this is true?

Yeah. I think Bruce and Simon would vouch for each other because they're both nasty scummos who faked being investigated two nights in a row.

I see you're attacking Simon's character rather than the content of his accusations. Hmmm.

Then you probably also understand that until your story makes any kind of sense, not everyone will be following you blindly.

Got it. You were investigated by a third party, then went asking Simon to tell us the good news.

Maybe Alastair was the investigator, and he blabbed too much.

You never know, it is small possibility but it can be.

[Zepher]

It's not really an idea I suspect myself, it is just the stumps pinging me and the belief that there MUST be a way that the maples can also benefit from that twist, in the interest of keeping the forest balanced (not that the forest will remain balanced once we finish chopping down all those maples)!

[Yzalirk]

Alright, I've decided who I should vote for,

Vote: Larry Larch (TheLazyChicken)

To start off with, I was pretty suspicious of you on Day One for defending two people when there was no need for it at all and it was just unnecessary. You've also defended Bobby again and, apparently you didn't get it from Day One and Two, to not stick your neck out for people with no reason other than "he edited a post". He can defend himself, so let go of his hand. This leads me to believe that you are indeed a Maple. I'm sure Bobby has enough experience to know what he did and I think he may have said some things that he wanted to get rid of so you quickly jumped to his side and defended him. You, Larry, also are trying too hard to look like an Oak which doesn't convince me, sorry. You've also dodged some questions against you and, I'm not sure why. Even if you don't have a good answer, at least make an attempt and not just avoid the question, especially when under fire. You've also posted some fluff here and there to help avoid questions and to just keep up your activity here. I find that to be the least scummy thing about you though, if that makes you happy. That is why I'll have my vote set on you, Larry.

[Dragonfire]

Any defense against his accusations would involve evading the facts or barefaced lying, and I'm not really going to that now.

Why are you not bothering to defend yourself ?? Why would defending yourself involve lying ??

Interesting the way you worded this. It sounds like you are grouping yourself in with the scum.

And you are asking the real investigator to come forward. So do we have a fake investigator as well?

And why would I group myself with the scum, as either alignment ??

I am not asking the investigator to come forward; I am merely saying that he/she would probably come forward if Simon and Bruce were lying.

Okay, so I looked back and this is what I found;

Day One - Berty voted against Agnes more as a poke to get him to speak up. Then Agnes voted against Berty, which looks like a revenge vote but Berty did claim to be the Miller out of the blue. I don't know whether or not I should believe that claim since it seemed odd to claim that on Day One for no reason. I would have also thought he would have been targeted for that but no, that hasn't happened. I'm not sure what to make of that but it seems rather odd. However, I suspected Larry for quite a while because it seemed like he's defended two people - William and Bobby. It was Day One so why would you stick your neck out for two people and are unaware of what they may be? Vicky was also the first to vote against Alastair and no one has really bothered him him/her so my guess is that a vigilnate may have targeted Vicky. That's just a speculation, nothing else.

Day Two - Vicky was the first to vote against Chester. My speculation is a 50/50 here since the vigilante may have killed Vicky because the vigilante may have thought that Vicky could be trying to start a band wagon or that a Maple thought this. More speculation, again. Chester has been suspicious to a few people as well, so that should be taken into consideration, just like Larry. Agnes was the third to vote against Catarina so he could have been a random target for all we know. I still have to look and see if Vicky and Agnes have been clashing against anyone and see if there is a motive there.

I'm just not sure of who to vote for though since it's a bit tough for me right now and The Walking Dead's new episode will be on shortly so I'll make up my mind later on.

I initially voted Agnes as a poke, but later actually got suspicious of her. It is optimal play for Millers to claim on Day One -- look it up or ask anyone. And as for why I'm still alive, who knows ?? Ask your scumbuddies.

No I am not, indeed, I'm not certain of what I am trying to do any more, and I don't really have any opinions on anything either. So ech, kill me if you want, I don't care anymore. I try to play these games but it seems I just can't.

Don't give up. It's never good play (although if you're a Maple, feel free to give up!). If you are town, defend yourself! Get involved!

Also, there doesn't need to be a Miller, so even without a counterclaim, he could still be lying. It's a good role for a Scum to claim. As pointed out, he did claim it late in the day after he aroused some suspicion. He did also come to me asking for the identity of the bomb claimant. I admit this ping has been a slow burn. He asked me this early on Day Two. The more I consider everyone, the more suspicion Berty seems.

Yes, I asked you who had claimed bomb. I can see why that pings you, but at the time I wanted to be in contact with another (hopefully) town role, so that I could talk to someone without worrying too much if they were scum or not. But then again, bomb is a fairly convenient role to claim.

Yes, I claimed it late in the day. I'm a newbie. I've only played one mafia school game on here before. You're all so experienced and knowledgeable and I think you're targeting new, less able players who make easy lynches. If you're scum, that is, which I do doubt.

Besides, I'm concerned about the bandwagons. Except for the 3 votes on Bruce on Day One, every single wagon of 3 or more votes has been on a newer, less experienced player. I'm worried that we have a very experienced scum team who are getting easy lynches from floundering newer players. Who knows, they could win the game tonight if we lynch wrong!

As for Larry, I find him suspicious but not unlike some other players who have died and flipped Oak. I'm concerned that scum are taking advantage of this. In all fairness, Bobby seems scummier but I am hesitant to vote for him for these reasons. Larry was playing like this as town in Excalibur TNG; Bobby was playing like this as scum in Cosplay.

[badboytje88]

Vote: Bobby Beech (Lord Duvors)

Just a friendly poke to get you to speak up.

[jimmynick]

I initially voted Agnes as a poke, but later actually got suspicious of her. It is optimal play for Millers to claim on Day One -- look it up or ask anyone. And as for why I'm still alive, who knows ?? Ask your scumbuddies.

Hmm, I thought you (or Simon) said on Day One that you went to him asking for advice about being a miller. Why didn't you look up how to play as a miller? Mafiascum says there are two ways to play: claim immediately, or never ever claim.

Yes, I asked you who had claimed bomb. I can see why that pings you, but at the time I wanted to be in contact with another (hopefully) town role, so that I could talk to someone without worrying too much if they were scum or not. But then again, bomb is a fairly convenient role to claim.

It's fishing for other people's information that they, out of courtesy and not being able to know for sure if you're town until you're dead, shouldn't be sharing with you! Something is rotten in the state of Denmark!

[Yzalirk]

I initially voted Agnes as a poke, but later actually got suspicious of her. It is optimal play for Millers to claim on Day One -- look it up or ask anyone. And as for why I'm still alive, who knows ?? Ask your scumbuddies.

If I had "scumbuddies", I probably would. Also, nice meta-gaming by the way.

[Dragonfire]

Vote: Bobby Beech (Lord Duvors)

Just a friendly poke to get you to speak up.

That looks suspiciously like an excuse for bandwagoning.

Hmm, I thought you (or Simon) said on Day One that you went to him asking for advice about being a miller. Why didn't you look up how to play as a miller? Mafiascum says there are two ways to play: claim immediately, or never ever claim.

It's fishing for other people's information that they, out of courtesy and not being able to know for sure if you're town until you're dead, shouldn't be sharing with you! Something is rotten in the state of Denmark!

I didn't think to look it up. Honestly, I kinda forgot the significance of my role and played as if I was a vanilla (which I basically am). Only late in the day did the thought suddenly come to me: what if I was to be investigated ??

Well, at least three other people have gone around claiming behind scenes...

[mostlytechnic]

It's not really an idea I suspect myself, it is just the stumps pinging me and the belief that there MUST be a way that the maples can also benefit from that twist, in the interest of keeping the forest balanced (not that the forest will remain balanced once we finish chopping down all those maples)!

But why must a Maple counterbalance be at all connected to the stumps? Why couldn't it be a multi-shot janitor? Or more blocking? Or more rolecops? Or something we can't even think of?

Your insistence that you KNOW something that MUST BE about the Maples is pinging...

[Scaevola]

No I am not, indeed, I'm not certain of what I am trying to do any more, and I don't really have any opinions on anything either. So ech, kill me if you want, I don't care anymore. I try to play these games but it seems I just can't.

If you were an oak you'd be scrupulously defending yourself. Your lack of care and conviction only further reinforce my suspicions about you.

Vote: Bobby Beech (Lord Duvors)

Just a friendly poke to get you to speak up.

What the heck? I'd say he's been poked enough wouldn't you? This is so superfluous and fluffy...

[Hinckley]

I just had a bunch of multi-quotes, then I hit the back button accidentally. I'll look back over what I had later on.

For now:

Vote: Bobby Beech (Lord Duvors)

Just a friendly poke to get you to speak up.

A friendly poke? Are you suspicious of him or not? Plenty has been pointed out about his behavior for you to form an opinion. I believe we are past the point of poking. We don't find Maples by voting for people to get them just to get them to talk. Look at his posts, analyze his behavior, discuss how you feel about his alignment.

Interesting. Looking back, I just realised Berty Birch was the one who claimed miller. Why are you speaking in code to the stumps if everyone already knows your role?

We have 9 claims of vanilla and a few more to compile and I would bet you they'll all be vanilla. Probabilities would have it that out of the 9 people, one would have a PR yet we have no claim. This means that both scum and town likely lied on their codes making the whole thing a big mess. I can understand how bit could be helpful to setup a block but by now a traditional block should also be forming making the codes that much more irrelevant.

Lauren, do you consider the Miller vanilla? Is what Berty said true about what he claimed to the stumps?

[Dragonfire]

But why must a Maple counterbalance be at all connected to the stumps? Why couldn't it be a multi-shot janitor? Or more blocking? Or more rolecops? Or something we can't even think of?

Your insistence that you KNOW something that MUST BE about the Maples is pinging...

I agree. It's more likely that, say, all the Maples are JOATs or something, than that dead Maples show up as Oak.

Lauren, do you consider the Miller vanilla? Is what Berty said true about what he claimed to the stumps?

This is fishing. Just because she outed nine vanilla claims you think you can take advantage of that?

And why would I give the stumps a different claim from what I claimed in-thread ?? (unless I'm a very stupid Maple)

[Hinckley]

This is fishing. Just because she outed nine vanilla claims you think you can take advantage of that?

megablocks. If Lauren says all the claims were vanilla and you say you claimed Miller, we all deserve clarification of what you told them.

[Dragonfire]

megablocks. If Lauren says all the claims were vanilla and you say you claimed Miller, we all deserve clarification of what you told them.

Oh, that's what you mean. It's still fishing, but fishing with justification.

I like how when I quote Simon, it quotes as "megablocks".

[Duvors]

Vote: Bobby Beech (Lord Duvors)

Just a friendly poke to get you to speak up.

Thank you, I love it when people try to get me to talk while I'm not even online with poorly disguised bandwagoning.

Would this be considered an "appeal to emotion"?

More, 'late game nihilism', and it's only just day three. Why do I feel like this on day three?

If you were an oak you'd be scrupulously defending yourself. Your lack of care and conviction only further reinforce my suspicions about you.

What the heck? I'd say he's been poked enough wouldn't you? This is so superfluous and fluffy...

Clem says He's suspicious of me, and then he gets upset when someone votes for me?

Right now I'm interested in this ethereal investigator that Simon is saying confirmed him and Bruce, how do we know that he even exists? On the other hand, as has been said before, if this investigator is a fake, why hasn't the real one come foreword? An annoying and strange state of affairs. To help clear this up I'd like my memory refreshed, how was Bruce cleared?

[Hinckley]

Oh, that's what you mean. It's still fishing, but fishing with justification.

I like how when I quote Simon, it quotes as "megablocks".

Aha, well I consider "fishing" to be a negative term. I'm not looking for new information that doesn't impact me. I'm asking for something said publicly to be clarified.

We've seen some fishing today, but I'll get to that later.

More, 'late game nihilism', and it's only just day three. Why do I feel like this on day three?

First, I engage in aggressive gameplay, now I'm a nihilist? No need to be insulting.

This is fishing and we've seen it on this very subject already today:

Right now I'm interested in this ethereal investigator that Simon is saying confirmed him and Bruce, how do we know that he even exists? On the other hand, as has been said before, if this investigator is a fake, why hasn't the real one come foreword? An annoying and strange state of affairs. To help clear this up I'd like my memory refreshed, how was Bruce cleared?

I would hope if I was lying about being in contact with an investigator, the "real" investigator would find a way to alert you all. Or a stump could be used with codes, etc. I guess you're not fishing as much as you are lazy since this has all already been discussed. Bruce was cleared by a person claiming to be the investigator and so was I and the investigator claim has gone unchallenged.

[Duvors]

First, I engage in aggressive gameplay, now I'm a nihilist? No need to be insulting.

No no, I'm the nihilist here, really, was it not obvious from the way I said it?

This is fishing and we've seen it on this very subject already today:

I would hope if I was lying about being in contact with an investigator, the "real" investigator would find a way to alert you all. Or a stump could be used with codes, etc. I guess you're not fishing as much as you are lazy since this has all already been discussed. Bruce was cleared by a person claiming to be the investigator and so was I and the investigator claim has gone unchallenged.

Arrrgh! Sorry, forget this question, I got Bruce confused with Berty and thought that Bruce was the one who claimed miller, ignore this.

[Hinckley]

No no, I'm the nihilist here, really, was it not obvious from the way I said it?

Arrrgh! Sorry, forget this question, I got Bruce confused with Berty and thought that Bruce was the one who claimed miller, ignore this.

Oh, gotcha. Well, don't insult yourself. No need to take it that seriously. This is a game, have fun. Unless you're a Maple. Then die, miserable Scum!

Let me be quite clear that it is not Berty that is confirmed. That would be Megablucked up if the investigator had confirmed the Miller.

It's been a while since I've played. Is the lack of bandwagon on Larry telling? At this point on Day Two, Catarina was almost lynched already. Maybe we are onto something.

Peter, how are these disconnected posts your contribution for the day?

Well the codes thing is all nice and cute but if not everyone sends in their role it's no use at all. It's a shame the stumps don't get to pm...

Alright, I've decided who I should vote for,

Vote: Larry Larch (TheLazyChicken)

To start off with, I was pretty suspicious of you on Day One for SNIP

Vote: Bobby Beech (Lord Duvors)

Just a friendly poke to get you to speak up.

And with a vote for Larry in between them. Are you trying to keep the two suspicious players even in votes?

[Dragonfire]

Aha, well I consider "fishing" to be a negative term. I'm not looking for new information that doesn't impact me. I'm asking for something said publicly to be clarified.

SNIP

I would hope if I was lying about being in contact with an investigator, the "real" investigator would find a way to alert you all. Or a stump could be used with codes, etc. I guess you're not fishing as much as you are lazy since this has all already been discussed. Bruce was cleared by a person claiming to be the investigator and so was I and the investigator claim has gone unchallenged.

I also consider fishing as negative, but not always coming from scum. I already brought up the investigator point, therefore the two if you are as good as confirmed Oaks in my eyes.

Oh, gotcha. Well, don't insult yourself. No need to take it that seriously. This is a game, have fun. Unless you're a Maple. Then die, miserable Scum!

Let me be quite clear that it is not Berty that is confirmed. That would be Megablucked up if the investigator had confirmed the Miller.

It's been a while since I've played. Is the lack of bandwagon on Larry telling? At this point on Day Two, Catarina was almost lynched already. Maybe we are onto something.

Catarina was universally scumread. Larry is playing less scummily IMO and maybe town don't want to flashwagon a newbie after yesterday? Or maybe Larry is scum.

Do you know, I once played a game on another site where I was the investigator and a random scum claimed investigator with a "town" result on me! I fell over laughing.

[Hinckley]

Do you know, I once played a game on another site where I was the investigator and a random scum claimed investigator with a "town" result on me! I fell over laughing.

I love stories like that. It's happened to me once that I had dueling investigator claims. Adelaide will remember that one.

[Scaevola]

Thank you, I love it when people try to get me to talk while I'm not even online with poorly disguised bandwagoning.

More, 'late game nihilism', and it's only just day three. Why do I feel like this on day three?

Clem says He's suspicious of me, and then he gets upset when someone votes for me?

Right now I'm interested in this ethereal investigator that Simon is saying confirmed him and Bruce, how do we know that he even exists? On the other hand, as has been said before, if this investigator is a fake, why hasn't the real one come foreword? An annoying and strange state of affairs. To help clear this up I'd like my memory refreshed, how was Bruce cleared?

I'll always suspect someone who tenders an ill-justified vote regardless of who it's on. Just because I suspect you're a maple doesn't make everyone who hops on the vote above suspicion!

May I also note you again changed your stance on an issue (in this case the investigator) when it was anathema to your reputation.

[TheLazyChicken]

Alright, I've decided who I should vote for,

Vote: Larry Larch (TheLazyChicken)

To start off with, I was pretty suspicious of you on Day One for defending two people when there was no need for it at all and it was just unnecessary. You've also defended Bobby again and, apparently you didn't get it from Day One and Two, to not stick your neck out for people with no reason other than "he edited a post". He can defend himself, so let go of his hand. This leads me to believe that you are indeed a Maple. I'm sure Bobby has enough experience to know what he did and I think he may have said some things that he wanted to get rid of so you quickly jumped to his side and defended him. You, Larry, also are trying too hard to look like an Oak which doesn't convince me, sorry. You've also dodged some questions against you and, I'm not sure why. Even if you don't have a good answer, at least make an attempt and not just avoid the question, especially when under fire. You've also posted some fluff here and there to help avoid questions and to just keep up your activity here. I find that to be the least scummy thing about you though, if that makes you happy. That is why I'll have my vote set on you, Larry.

If memory serves me correct, I don't remember people asking questions and me not answering them. Unless I haven't seen them...

[Piratedave84]

I just had a bunch of multi-quotes, then I hit the back button accidentally. I'll look back over what I had later on.

For now:

A friendly poke? Are you suspicious of him or not? Plenty has been pointed out about his behavior for you to form an opinion. I believe we are past the point of poking. We don't find Maples by voting for people to get them just to get them to talk. Look at his posts, analyze his behavior, discuss how you feel about his alignment.

Lauren, do you consider the Miller vanilla? Is what Berty said true about what he claimed to the stumps?

Ask someone else, I'm not willing to work with you.

Just to be clear, we have more than 9 claims; most of which stem from PM conversations and were not revealed publicly; what I relayed was a fragment of what we have compiled and it was used to demonstrate that the codes had been used in a fraudulent manner.

I'm going to say it again; the codes are keeping you from doing what you should be doing and I would bet you that the biggest supporters of the codes are scum using the codes to steer us in the wrong direction.

Now if you want us to analyse the codes, post yours now or else it'll just prove our point that this is garbage.

megablocks. If Lauren says all the claims were vanilla and you say you claimed Miller, we all deserve clarification of what you told them.

I don't think we have a set of codes for Berty

megablocks. If Lauren says all the claims were vanilla and you say you claimed Miller, we all deserve clarification of what you told them.

I don't think we have a set of codes for Berty

megablocks. If Lauren says all the claims were vanilla and you say you claimed Miller, we all deserve clarification of what you told them.

I don't think we have a set of codes for Berty

We don't have codes for Berty.