Doctor Who, Torchwood, Sarah Jane Adventures...

[Faefrost]

A special I actually liked.

9/10

I guess this answers how the Doctor gets past his regeneration limit. Well, not HOW but the fact that he does.

A Time Lord naturally has 13 lives, 12 regenerations.

The 11th Doctor was actually the 12th due to the "secret" Doctor. I wouldn't be surprised if all the Doctors went up a number after the REAL 9th due to this Doctor clearing his name of the destruction of his homeworld.

Then Moffat said that the 10th Doctors "severed hand" cheat counted too. So really, in a way the 11th Doctor is kind of the 13th. The last life.

We knew an official 13th would come. That's already pushing beyond the limit if the hand cheat counted as a regeneration (all logic says it should otherwise the Time Lords could just carry around severed hangs to be immortal ;p).

THEN on top of that the 4th is "Revisited" at the end of this episode! And he hinted that he'd "revisit" more. So basically... somehow the Doctor has gone beyond the natural amount of regenerations, well beyond.

My guess is he got more in the Time War or something. Idunno, you can explain it 100 different ways.

This might explain some of it

That lore of a limit of 12 regeneration comes from one Tom Baker episode. In it the Master nearing the end of his last regeneration is trying to use some Time Lord artifacts to reset his regeneration count. While it obviously did work for him, in the episode The 4th doctor was also exposed to the full brunt of the process. So technically in the same episode where they introduced 12 regenerations, they sort of exempted the doctor from that limit.

This may be born out by comments by one of the newer doctors "others have limits. I do not."

Overall my views on the episode were mixed. It's a great episode and a fun story. John Hurt is fantastic. As a Dr. Who episode it's one of the best. As an anniversary episode it felt disappointing. It really needed a few more doctors. At least Ecclesten, McGann and McCoy. Seeing Tom Bakers was great, although it felt a bit like the Leonard Nimoy stuff at the end of the JJ Abrams Star Trek.

[Scorpiox]

Can I wriggle-out of a review and just state that this episode was bloody good?

[Mr Man]

Well not counting the Meta Crisis Doctor, the next one is number 13, the last one so I suspect that the mission will be to

To find the Gallifrey Falls No More painting rescue the Time Lords and get a few extra life mushrooms from them.

It seemed a bit of silly fanservice bringing Billy back just to be the voice of The Moment. My only problem with it was the lack of a resolution to the Zygon plot, and also that they apparently didn't have the budget to morph Hurt into Eccleston and also that, after getting McGann back for NotD, they couldn't fit him into the crowd shots, instead using footage from the film again. Finally I presume they haven't finalised Capaldi's costume yet hence the weird headshot.

The Christmas special seems to be set on Trenzalore, I don't know about anyone else but I would have preferred it to be an unvisited story, but it looks like we are finally getting that bloody Silence arc over and done with.

[Scorpiox]

Well not counting the Meta Crisis Doctor, the next one is number 13, the last one so I suspect that the mission will be to

It seemed a bit of silly fanservice bringing Billy back just to be the voice of The Moment. My only problem with it was the lack of a resolution to the Zygon plot, and also that they apparently didn't have the budget to morph Hurt into Eccleston and also that, after getting McGann back for NotD, they couldn't fit him into the crowd shots, instead using footage from the film again. Finally I presume they haven't finalised Capaldi's costume yet hence the weird headshot.

The Christmas special seems to be set on Trenzalore, I don't know about anyone else but I would have preferred it to be an unvisited story, but it looks like we are finally getting that bloody Silence arc over and done with.

There doesn't seem to be a reason why Billie Piper had to be the voice other than so that the audience would have someone to connect with. As the only character who could see her was John Hurt, and he would have no idea who she was, it was perhaps unnecessary. Hopefully this will be the last we have to see of her.

But there a few things that I didn't really understand:

1. Where in the timeline does Hurt fit-in? As he was the Doctor during the Time War, that must make him come in after McGann but before Eccleston... as Doctor 8.5?
   

Edit: a short conversation later and I have managed to understand this. As all of the following Doctors were so ashamed of what John Hurt did, they just pretended that he had never existed and lowered the numbers by one. With this in-mind, Matt Smith should actually be the 13th Doctor and the 12th regeneration, making Capaldi by logic be the final Doctor.

1. 
   
2. At what point does Hurt regenerate into Eccleston, and why?
   
3. Who was Tom Baker in this episode? The fourth Doctor regenerated long before he had the chance to get old like Baker is. In that case, who was the character he portrayed? Was he merely the gallery's curator and not the Doctor at all?
   

Anyhow, I absolutely love how they made The End of Time make some actual sense by explaining why Gallifrey was frozen.

I hope that the Silence don't come into it at all, to be honest. I still think their arc to be too forced with the whole 'they have always been there, they have just never been mentioned' thing. I'm also unsure as to how the special won't seem underwhelming given the brilliance of yesterday's episode. After the Doctor has righted the single largest wrong in his life, how can Matt Smith's departure top that?

I was also pleased to see the return of the Zygons. All we need now is a new Sea Devils episode and then the set will be complete!

Edited November 24, 2013 by Scorpiox

[CJBERRY]

Never been a huge Dr Who fan but my wife is and during the Matt Smith years I have learned to appreciate it I thought last nights celebration episode was superb, really good 'fan service'. Worth watching even if, like me you arent the biggest Dr Who fan around

[Mr Man]

But there a few things that I didn't really understand:

1. Where in the timeline does Hurt fit-in? As he was the Doctor during the Time War, that must make him come in after McGann but before Eccleston... as Doctor 8.5?
   

Edit: a short conversation later and I have managed to understand this. As all of the following Doctors were so ashamed of what John Hurt did, they just pretended that he had never existed and lowered the numbers by one. With this in-mind, Matt Smith should actually be the 13th Doctor and the 12th regeneration, making Capaldi by logic be the final Doctor.

1. 
   
2. At what point does Hurt regenerate into Eccleston, and why?
   
3. Who was Tom Baker in this episode? The fourth Doctor regenerated long before he had the chance to get old like Baker is. In that case, who was the character he portrayed? Was he merely the gallery's curator and not the Doctor at all?
   

1) Have you watched Night of the Doctor? I know you have the answer there but it's good.

2) Hurt starts to regenerate at the very end of the episode, after making a reference to wishing his ears aren't as conspicuous next time . as for why, it's because he as been worn out by the constant fighting of the time war. When he has first regenerated in NotD he appears as John Hurt did when he was in his 20's or 30's)

3) My understanding of it (after re-watching this morning) is that at some point in the future the Doctor is given some more regenerations and retires to be a curator and has the option of making his future regenerations look like old faces of his.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Mr Man

[AyliffeMakit]

If you haven't already, have a look at this special episode written and directed by Peter Davidson. I gurantee that you will find it hillarious!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01m3kfy

(It should work outside the UK, but if it doesn't than let me know)

Edited November 24, 2013 by AyliffeMakit

[Scorpiox]

1) Have you watched Night of the Doctor? I know you have the answer there but it's good.

2) Hurt starts to regenerate at the very end of the episode, after making a reference to wishing his ears aren't as conspicuous next time . as for why, it's because he as been worn out by the constant fighting of the time war. When he has first regenerated in NotD he appears as John Hurt did when he was in his 20's or 30's)

3) My understanding of it (after re-watching this morning) is that at some point in the future the Doctor is given some more regenerations and retires to be a curator and has the option of making his future regenerations look like old faces of his.

1. I haven't see Night of the Doctor, is it a web-episode or something of that ilk?
   
2. So that was what was happening when Hurt's hands were glowing? That makes sense, thanks.
   
3. That would be a nice ending to the series if it is true. With the insertion of John Hurt into the timeline, Capaldi's Doctor should by logic be the last. However, I seriously doubt that the BBC will want to kill-off one of their best-loved TV series in a couple of years when he is done, so I suspect that earning more re-generations may come into play. It has already been shown that regenerations can be given and restored, such as the fact that the Master is able to keep finding them long after his thirteenth life is up.

Oh, and by the way, your spoiler tags have broken.

[Mr Man]

1. I haven't see Night of the Doctor, is it a web-episode or something of that ilk?
   
2. So that was what was happening when Hurt's hands were glowing? That makes sense, thanks.
   
3. That would be a nice ending to the series if it is true. With the insertion of John Hurt into the timeline, Capaldi's Doctor should by logic be the last. However, I seriously doubt that the BBC will want to kill-off one of their best-loved TV series in a couple of years when he is done, so I suspect that earning more re-generations may come into play. It has already been shown that regenerations can be given and restored, such as the fact that the Master is able to keep finding them long after his thirteenth life is up.

Oh, and by the way, your spoiler tags have broken.

Night of the Doctor

Thanks I think I've fixed them.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Mr Man

[Scorpiox]

-snip-

Night of the Doctor

Thanks I think I've fixed them.

Wow, thanks for finding that for me. It certainly explains a lot about the early days of the war in so little time.

[Mr Man]

One question that's bothering me is the 3 Doctors could have blown the door up (if it was locked ) because the programme was at work in the oldest Doctors (War) screwdriver and had completed some years later in 11's, It's meant to be a parallel to the calculations at he end, but it was War, 10, and 11's idea, so how has he been working on it for a very long time, surely only 13 should have the answer .

[Ceroknight]

Loved it! I was really happy they included some other past guests

[BrickG]

So with foresight watching it a second time I don't like it as much.

Basically... Dues Ex Machinas I'm getting sick of. Timey Whimy I'm getting sick of.

And the Doctor is an already far too powerful being. He's got Superman syndrome. He cannot fail. He always saves the whole universe and all the other universes all the time. There's not much he could do better.

Buuut despite that he still had this one major failing. Something that showed it didn't always win and was indeed not perfect. But then this... it literally makes him perfect. He's basically Jesus. No, more like SUPER Jesus.

He cannot do wrong and even when he does it is undone (timey whimy). He cannot ever fail. He's increasingly completely unrelatable. The way that woman was saying "The Doctor will save me" over and over was basically like a prayer to a GOD. Because that's what the Doctor is. He's freakin' GOD. Have faith in the Doctor (while also trashing religion even though THE DOCTOR IS GOD and basically the same thing lol).

I really have a problem with this. I hope those rumored Doctor Who movies reboot the whole thing and make the Doctor, yeah brilliant to an insane degree, but not a GOD. Make him able to lose. At least attempt to make time travel make a BIT of sense (no more future self giving Rory the screwdriver which is used to rescue past self... stuff like that which TIMEY WHIMY doesn't explain unless I'm smarter than the Doctor knowing that's freakin' impossible (it's basically reversing cause and effect).

And it's not just the time travel and deux ex machina that doesn't make sense but virtually everything else. I could go on forever about how the show contradicts itself in virtually every episode. And not even contradictions between new and real old episodes but ones that are a few years or a few episodes apart.

And the few times he does make a mistake he just regenerates.

Idunno... they took away his ONLY mistake. I think it would have been more interesting if he literally did the same choice again. Coming to the conclusion that there was literally no other way and he had to kill all beings to save the rest of the universe. Also, I always figured Gallefrey would come back one day, but I had hoped in a way that didn't nullify his previous decision. Meaning maybe through some action it was saved but not by just undoing it and the choice and mistakes he made.

And heck, we have Tranzelore coming soon. But why is the Doctor concerned? He just MET his 4th (yet future) regeneration. He's obviously not dying as the d00d said he revisits his old favorites. He's literally got several generations left...

Blablabla...

I want a more human doctor. A less perfect one. The kind that can save the world but probably doesn't have to save the whole of reality every season. One that can save the world then jaywalk and be hit by a bus bring on his next regeneration (would be neat ;p just saved everyone, celebrating, BAM regen! lol).

Also... how the crap did ALL the Daleks die in the crossfire? That's ridiculous. They didn't seem to be using anything but beam weapons. There's no way they'd all shoot eachother even with a billion billion of them up there! It's statistically ridiculous! And did they put all their eggs in one basket? Were they ALL there to die the same ridiculous and stupid way? Wut? I thought the Doctor killed the Time Lords, Daleks and all sorts of evil people with the Moment (a ridiculous and unexplainable weapon) and saving the planet would also save all those evil d00ds which is why he chose to repeat it's destruction in that Tennant Episode with the Master.

Blarrrg!

[jimmynick]

Yes, while I don't appreciate that they

erased the Doctor's Big Mistake

I do like that they've given the programme more direction with the goal of

finding Gallifrey, after the Doctor has retconned the planet into a situation like Davros did to lots of planets in Series 4.

There's been a lot of angst thrown around amongst Doctors 9, 10 and 11, so the new development is refreshing. I think they are, in a sense, rebooting the programme anew because of the new (older) Doctor.

The only think I really didn't like about the special was that they

handwaved away the Zygons once their plotline provided a suitable parallel to the Time War.

[Mr Man]

Blarrrg!

Because if the Doctor loses the universe gets destroyed, the closest he can get to losing is the death of a companion, he's lost about 4 so far. Doctor Who isn't about making hard choices and letting millions die to save billions, it's about finding the hidden third option that others can't see, in this case it's taken 800 years or so but he finally can reverse the time war.

As for the Timey Whimy stuff that's Moffat all over He'd get dizzy if he tried to walk in a straight line (points to anyone who gets the reference).

Also I believe that entropy field caused by the destruction of Logopolis destroyed a large portion of the universe in Logopolis, that hasn't been reversed to my knowledge.

[BrickG]

Because if the Doctor loses the universe gets destroyed, the closest he can get to losing is the death of a companion, he's lost about 4 so far. Doctor Who isn't about making hard choices and letting millions die to save billions, it's about finding the hidden third option that others can't see, in this case it's taken 800 years or so but he finally can reverse the time war.

As for the Timey Whimy stuff that's Moffat all over He'd get dizzy if he tried to walk in a straight line (points to anyone who gets the reference).

Also I believe that entropy field caused by the destruction of Logopolis destroyed a large portion of the universe in Logopolis, that hasn't been reversed to my knowledge.

But that's stupid. It's a stupid and untrue ideal even in a fantasy that there's always a hidden choice. It's naive as heck. Also they can ATTEMPT to have a good story WITHOUT the universe itself at peril! I've seen it happen. It's possible...

The whole thing really makes the previous seasons meaningless. And again, he's Super Jesus.

Edited November 29, 2013 by BrickG

[Legofin2012]

A bit confused, because technically Clara should no longer be his companion, since the doctor doesn't die, and the trensalor episode when Clara steps in to the dr.'s time line, no longer happens?! So yeah, a bit confused but enjoyed it! :D

[BrickG]

It's Doctor Who timey wimey wibbly wobbly stuff. They don't even try to make sense which is why it's often confusing, because it makes no sense. :P

*spoilers

I really didn't like the method of story telling in this one. It was... bad. The hundreds of years he was protecting the planet.. it was told in the terrible old christmas story way which doesn't actually make for good story telling. It "told" everything. Didn't show anything. I really hate that kind of story telling... It just takes away any emotion. I'd compare the Handles d00d to Wilson the volleyball. Wilson doesn't ever talk but you care sooo much more about him. The Doctor was supposed to really get attached to this Handles guy and because it's only SAID that he's attached and NOT shown I don't freakin' care when the thing dies. A volleyball had more emotional investments.

Anyways, I'd rate it like 7/10. Not terrible. But more nonsense and crappy storytelling. The 11th's (12 or 13th or whatever he is now :P) early seasons were good but this late stuff was just not nearly as good.

Anyways... I really hope change comes to doctor who with the next doctor. Maybe a Doctor who isn't basically just X (XI was just a X variation with his personality). Maybe seasons that don't constantly involve saving the whole universe which is a cheap way to attempt to get people to care, because who wants to see the whole universe destroyed? Especially when it's done so often.

I hope for a less perfect doctor. Honestly, I just want a reboot the most now :P.

Edited December 26, 2013 by BrickG

[Mr Man]

Well it did nicely tie up all the loose plot ends. But basically the Papal Mainframe has a shield powerful to keep Daleks out and later is the last fleet standing against the Daleks, how the hell were they not in the Time War!

Very funny regeneration though .

Also sending Clara off all those times got bit silly.

The biggest complication now is the implication for 'Name of the Doctor'.

[BrickG]

I'm just really sick of all the plot holes and crap. This created more plot holes than fixed (classic Doctor Who).

I mean, he'd suggested several times he could still regenerate despite being 13. Heck, River Song once used anti-regeneration poison on him. And that's just one.

I really freakin' wish this show many sense and didn't continually ignore lore that was established literally sometimes a few episodes away. I'm actually angry. Never been angry at a TV show before. :)

[jimmynick]

I was fairly pleased with it, but not the plot itself (which was slow and boring...). They did properly count up the number of times the Doctor has regenerated, which made me happy. I like that they tied together loose ends such as

the crack in the wall, Gallifrey not being dead, the Silence, etc. etc.

The deus ex machina solution was a little cheap, but it made sense. After all, it's certainly not

in the Time Lords' interest to let the Doctor die

, is it?

[Faefrost]

BLEAH! Not my favorite episode, and possibly my least favorite regeneration. Just too convoluted. Somebody failed to wrestle the script away from Moffet and subject it to some reasonable editing. To confusing. Even many Dr Who fans would have trouble keeping up with who was who and what was what without a crib sheet. Which is annoying in a regular episode, but almost unforgivable in a Christmas Special, which tend to attract more casual viewers, who may not have seen every other Matt Smith episode.

Plus the story had no weight.

They put on the table that the Doctor is out of regenerations, and is about to die... (After 300 years of sitting around? Ummm wasn't the William Hartnell doctor already 700 years old on just the one regeneration. And showing no signs of senility or dementia beyond Hartnells own?)

But the threat of the Doctor dying carries no weight. The threat of the last regeneration carries no weight. Because we all know this is Matt Smiths last episode, and there is a new Doctor waiting in the wings. So the dramatic tension should have been around how and why the doctor regenerates. And therein lie the major problems.

- first up the elephant in the room. Matt Smith suddenly jumping two slots to be the 13th Doctor. Ok fine they legitimately set him up well as 12. The Whole John Hurt the Timelord but not the Doctor thing. A little late in the game, but still good and compelling. But the jump to 13 was crude and violated core rules of storytelling. "Oh 10 was actually two regenerations he just kept the same form". Ummm wtf? Sorry but this violates the gun on the mantle rule of storytelling. If they wanted to do this, then they needed to pull a reveal of this much earlier in the season, and build the tension of Smith being on his 13th regeneration. Just doing it as a throwaway when they did, with no build and no deeper explanation was a move worthy of the worst examples of fan fiction. Just really really lousy writing.

- even once we get past the above, ok fine, the doctor being on his last regeneration, and how he gets around that could be a great story. That could have been the great tension. How does he pull this off. What is the third way he finds? Instead we have the Timelords (you know the people that have always sort of hated him?) just doing an unexplained bit of magic to grant him more regenerations. No dialogue, no reasoning, no tension, not even a story. Just because the perky chick asked them too? What makes it even worse is in this episode they quoted and laid out the rules for Timelord Regeneration. Which come from one particular classic episode. Now they could have ignored, changed, restated or represented the info from the older episode, instead they just accepted it and pretty much quoted it. Which would be great except they ignored everything else from that episode. The old episode established that yes the Timelords did have a mechanism to extend or reset regenerations. But it also laid out how rare, complicated and involved it was. It was not something that could simply be done on a whim or beamed remotely. To even further add to the Madness, and Stupidity. If they are accepting the old episode and Timelord Regeneration limits as still applicable here, than the 4th Doctor was already subjected to the reset process at the same moment the Master reset his... So Matt Smith was not on his 13th regeneration, he was on his 9th. And yeah I know I am being picky about this all, but once again it just all felt like bad, last minute writing.

The sad thing is the 10 minute Children in Need charity episode this year, which showed the lead up to "Day of the Doctor" and Paul McGann's regeneration into John Hurt was several orders of magnitude better than this Christmas Special. It had tension and drama and was well written and compelling. Whereas Smith's departure just felt weak and confusing. And lacked any of the charm or drama that his run as Doctor has been characterized by.

[jimmynick]

But if the Time Lords let the Doctor die, there's no way they can be certain which universe to come back to. After all, "Doctor Who?" was their best question.

[Kintobor]

So I finally sat down on New Years and watched my second episode of Dr. Who, since the first one was The Rings of Akatan or something and I wasn't sold on the whole thing, so everyone said I should watch The Empty Child and the Dance of the Doctor, and I think I'm hooked. Really spooky, really atmospheric, that blasted child scared the hell out of me: I really liked it! It was honestly one of the few times I've been nervous watching something, and there were genuine moments where I wasn't sure the group would get out, that's how into it I got! Really liked it! Probably going to watch some more later on.

[Praiter Yed]

Peter Capaldi's costume is revealed. I laughed when I saw it, perhaps because the image made him look a bit like a magician (which made me think about the

) but I think I like it. Can't wait to see the new Doctor in action, hopefully they'll give him some good stories.