Ragnarök Now 3: Day One

[Brickelodeon]

After sleeping on it, I think this has just been two townies arguing over word choice. But I'm not ready to drop it yet. I had been viciously trying to prove that I never accused Tarben of being scum, that I was merely suspicious of him for is odd behavior. Well, after thinking about it last night, I really am beginning to doubt Tarben's allegiances even more. Let me re-post the PMs I had with him, but with commentary:

Me: Hello again mate :P I figured I would start my PMs with you like I usually do. You have the ability to tell when I am scum, I wish I could say the same thing about myself. Hopefully things will turn out better for us this time than the last two times we've talked in private. I know the game is just starting, so I'm really just PMing you to say "hi, I'm going to stalk you and stuff for the rest of the game".

Him: No I'm scum don't do it. Although I passed it off as a joke at the time, Pudding does make a good point that this could be the bold actions of a traitor. He's testing the waters and trying to get lucky. The scum team would know that there is a traitor out there, and would be looking for even the smallest hint. This is Tarben's hint.

Me: :D When I don't give a full reaction, he doesn't know whether my smiley face meant that I'm scum, and that I'm happy to have found the traitor so easily, or if it means that I'm just passing it off as a joke.

Him (a day later): Dude are you seriously scum again?? Way to go man. After a day of me not confirming that the scum team knows he's the traitor, he tries to dig a bit deeper.

Me: Whaaaaaaat? ... I think you are trying to bait a reaction out of my like you tried last game. Nice try, but I need to actually be scum for that tactic to work.

Him: Guess the joke's on me then. If only you were scum. This is his last try to find out if I'm scum. He says that he wishes I was scum and hopes that I would take the final hint and recruit him into the scum team.

Me: I can't help feeling that you are playing with me here... Do you know anything that I don't? I'm obviously confused because I'm not getting any of his hints.

Him: I'm just messing around. Not much to do for Day one. This answer doesn't make sense. Since when does Tarben say stupid shit like this just for fun? That's not normal.

I could be totally off, but I am really beginning to think that Tarben is the traitor, and is trying to get into the scum team. Since all of this is out in the open, the scum team knows about it and will have no trouble getting him into their team.

[Piratedave84]

It's actually quite common. When Brand told me Tarden had said "I'm Scum" and then later "You're Scum,made to you?" Which by his own definition is a bad paraphrase...I asked if he was a traitor because he sounded like he was fishing. The actual conversation seems less so.

Check the rules, the direct quoting of PMs from other players is not prohibited.

Not ",made to you", "aren't you". Stupid autocorrect.

I seems to me that it was initally Tarben who was probing Brand to see if he could recruit him; or is this a conclusion Brand drew and then discussed with you?

It also seems as though Brand was trying to probe you to see if his concusions could lead to a lynch

[Hinckley]

After sleeping on it, I think this has just been two townies arguing over word choice. But I'm not ready to drop it yet. I had been viciously trying to prove that I never accused Tarben of being scum, that I was merely suspicious of him for is odd behavior. Well, after thinking about it last night, I really am beginning to doubt Tarben's allegiances even more. Let me re-post the PMs I had with him, but with commentary:

*Snip*

I could be totally off, but I am really beginning to think that Tarben is the traitor, and is trying to get into the scum team. Since all of this is out in the open, the scum team knows about it and will have no trouble getting him into their team.

You should learn to read things as I'm pretty sure that's a lot of penalty votes now.

[Brickelodeon]

You should learn to read things as I'm pretty sure that's a lot of penalty votes now.

Holy shit. I did not see that rules update... I'm screwed now :P

[Hinckley]

I seems to me that it was initally Tarben who was probing Brand to see if he could recruit him; or is this a conclusion Brand drew and then discussed with you?

It also seems as though Brand was trying to probe you to see if his concusions could lead to a lynch

I drew that conclusion. Brand says he was asking me, whatever that means.

I still can't see past that Brand is going back and forth, even today, about if he said the things Tarben said were strange or were they only a joke? Last night, it appears, he was saying he only thought there were a joke and today he's saying it was odd again, the same way he did by PM before saying he thought it was just a joke and I was the one who took it seriously. He's saying he never concluded Tarben was Scum but you can all see what he wrote. There's too much contradiction here.

[Brickelodeon]

For Odin's sake man! Have you not even listened to what I said?

"I passed the "I'm scum" quote off as a joke (and only that one quote), the rest of the odd behavior is what pinged me"

[Duvors]

I have had enough of your gibberish, you say that you never accused Tarben of being scum (which is blatantly untrue), and then go on to do just that in the same post, what kind of a defense is that?

After sleeping on it, I think this has just been two townies arguing over word choice. But I'm not ready to drop it yet. I had been viciously trying to prove that I never accused Tarben of being scum, that I was merely suspicious of him for is odd behavior. Well, after thinking about it last night, I really am beginning to doubt Tarben's allegiances even more. Let me re-post the PMs I had with him, but with commentary:

See? just as I said.

Although I passed it off as a joke at the time, Pudding does make a good point that this could be the bold actions of a traitor. He's testing the waters and trying to get lucky. The scum team would know that there is a traitor out there, and would be looking for even the smallest hint. This is Tarben's hint.

That's just stupid, seriously. There are far more subtle ways to hint to hint than that. And why would he hint to you anyway? He had no idea what your alignment would be (unless he himself was scum, but that's starting to seem very unlikely to me).

When I don't give a full reaction, he doesn't know whether my smiley face meant that I'm scum, and that I'm happy to have found the traitor so easily, or if it means that I'm just passing it off as a joke.

You read to much into a smiley.

After a day of me not confirming that the scum team knows he's the traitor, he tries to dig a bit deeper.

Again, why the heck would he assume you were scum?

This is his last try to find out if I'm scum. He says that he wishes I was scum and hopes that I would take the final hint and recruit him into the scum team.

Seriously?

I'm obviously confused because I'm not getting any of his hints.

What Hints? All I see is a guy being playful because of a lack of anything better to do.

This answer doesn't make sense. Since when does Tarben say stupid shit like this just for fun? That's not normal.

Everyone does things like that sometimes.

Holy shit. I did not see that rules update... I'm screwed now :P

For Odin's sake man! Have you not even listened to what I said?

"I passed the "I'm scum" quote off as a joke (and only that one quote), the rest of the odd behavior is what pinged me"

That is not the inpression you have conveyed.

[Piratedave84]

For Odin's sake man! Have you not even listened to what I said?

"I passed the "I'm scum" quote off as a joke (and only that one quote), the rest of the odd behavior is what pinged me"

"Herburt Marred-Eye had mead hall EIEIO

In that hall there were scummos EIEIO

Here a ping, there a ping, everywhere a ping-ping"

Please tell us why it is that Tarben was so up front with you ... I can't conceive that someone would be so bold as to say "hey! I'm scum" on day one UNLESS they had very good reason to do so.

[Brickelodeon]

I have had enough of your gibberish, you say that you never accused Tarben of being scum (which is blatantly untrue), and then go on to do just that in the same post, what kind of a defense is that?

Show me the quote (prior to today's) where I said that.

That's just stupid, seriously. There are far more subtle ways to hint to hint than that. And why would he hint to you anyway? He had no idea what your alignment would be (unless he himself was scum, but that's starting to seem very unlikely to me).

What you just said makes no sense. What is more subtle that telling a casual joke? It would have worked to alert me that he was scum if I was looking for the traitor. Of course he has no idea about my alignment, that's why he didn't outright say "Yo, I'm the scum recruit".

What Hints? All I see is a guy being playful because of a lack of anything better to do.

Nice defense of your scum buddy there... Nobody acts like that in mafia except pure idiots... Which I guess you have experience with.... XD

That is not the iMpression you have conveyed.

It's not? I just read over the PMs I had with Pudding, and I must disagree with you.

You are probably scum trying to get an easy day 1 lynch while protecting your scum-buddy.

Please tell us why it is that Tarben was so up front with you ... I can't conceive that someone would be so bold as to say "hey! I'm scum" on day one UNLESS they had very good reason to do so.

You tell me! That's why I passed it off as a joke. How many times do I have to say this. I initially thought that Tarben was joking.

[TheLazyChicken]

After sleeping on it, I think this has just been two townies arguing over word choice. But I'm not ready to drop it yet. I had been viciously trying to prove that I never accused Tarben of being scum, that I was merely suspicious of him for is odd behavior. Well, after thinking about it last night, I really am beginning to doubt Tarben's allegiances even more. Let me re-post the PMs I had with him, but with commentary:

You are saying that you didn't accuse him, yet now you're saying you're suspicious of him?

Thinking about it, it could be that Tarben could be the traitor. He could've been messing with you to see if maybe you would say something that could mean you were a scum member.

Please tell us why it is that Tarben was so up front with you ... I can't conceive that someone would be so bold as to say "hey! I'm scum" on day one UNLESS they had very good reason to do so.

True, he should've had a reason to say that, I don't really see why he would've said "I'm scum" that easily.

[Brickelodeon]

True, he should've had a reason to say that, I don't really see why he would've said "I'm scum" that easily.

Exactly my point. I thought he was joking at first, but he kept saying other wack-o things too. When Pudding brought up that he could be the traitor, all of the pieces fit together perfectly.

[Hinckley]

Exactly my point. I thought he was joking at first, but he kept saying other wack-o things too. When Pudding brought up that he could be the traitor, all of the pieces fit together perfectly.

You're both nuts! Tarden's behavior with me was odd, firmly odd, you won't find me changing that. He said he wasn't stimulated by Day One's activity and that was why he wasn't active but that he planned to jump on someone today yet named no suspicions.

You're both confounding!

[Darkdragon]

Sometimes I wonder if scum teams keep this post on the writeboard so that they can use it whenever they need it. It happens every game, at least once. A player who's done nothing but respond to attacks asks for quiet people to speak up so that he or she can seem like a good, active townie by comparison.

Everything in Agnar posted here was basically the same thing I was going to post, right down to the same quotes i had in my multiquote box, so I won't go over it all, but this part specifically really caught my eye. When Brand posted that "typical scum first day" post, I was just shaking my head wondering how more blatant he could be. Then getting into a huge argument with Pudding-Head over a silly pre-game PM from another player and both of them pulling semantics arguments - well it all seems very suspicious and resembling of a floundering scum.

I mean, your general point is valid, but it's hard not to feel attacked when you single me out like that.

This is also a common thing (over-defensiveness) for inexperienced scum, though I know for a fact I did the same thing as a noob town and I would be so nervous when people accused me of anything that I ended up being a very easy target for scum to have lynched on day1 or day2 with no repercussions. So I wouldn't say you should be lynched today but you'd do best to calm down a bit and think things through, and never post "i'm looking at things closer, i'll be back later to post", which is scummy and nooby, but overall extremely useless to everyone.

...

Nice defense of your scum buddy there... Nobody acts like that in mafia except pure idiots... Which I guess you have experience with.... XD

...

This whole post. Wow, you look more scummy every post. I can understand the theories that don't make sense from you, the going back and forth (sometimes within your own post or PM even), but when someone starts calling others idiots and using exclamation points (thus seeming nervous and angry), I lean a lot more toward scum than crazy-town.

If you are really scum, I'm sure your team is very pissed at you for posting the PM quotes after the rules were changed and the host said in the post just before yours that he'd changed it.

[Brickelodeon]

I don't see why you have such a big problem. We both say that Tarden is acting strange. Everyone except Lodmund would admit that. I suggested that he could be preoccupied with the happenings in another dimension called "real life", but it makes much more sense if you think of Tarden as a traitor. This brings up a good question:

Lodmund, why are you so quick to attack me with your false facts? And how come you are so willing to pass up Tarden's strange behavior? I mean, as much of a joke as it could have been, he did claim to be scum. You're just willing to turn the other way and shun this? Odd...

[Duvors]

Show me the quote (prior to today's) where I said that.

What Pudding-head said is true. Tarben told me not to trust him because he was already corrupted. I passed it off as a joke, but it could potentially be that he is a recruit for the corrupted and he is just "testing the waters" to find out who can bring him into their circle. The context of the conversation was mixed, and I couldn't tell if he was joking or not as he used no emotions when he said it. Thoughts everyone?

This.

The old man is potentially right, and we could both be innocent. But let us not drop this subject yet. I would like to dig a bit deeper and analyze the conversation to see what it was really like. I read through the rules, and I don't see any rule against direct quotes from PMs with non-host players. Therefore I will quote everything relevant to the subject:

Me: "He [Tarden] has been acting very strange in my opinion. He said some very weird things to me, and when I asked him what was up, he said that he was just bored with day. It could be that he is preoccupied with real life stuff. Who knows."

Pudding: "What was weird?"

Me: "Here's the convo (paraphrased of course):

Me: Hi, I would like to talk with you for the rest of the game.

Him: Don't, I'm scum.

Me: Haha

Him (a day later): You are scum aren't you?

Me: The megabluck is this?

Him: Hmm, guess I was wrong. I wish you were scum.

Me: You are acting crazy, what's up?

Him: I'm bored with day 1.

Me: Okay.

It could be that he was just messing around with me. Seems like something Tammo would do. Idk, I'll just watch him some more." (Note, I did not bold the selected phrases in PM)

Pudding: "Is he a Traitor? "

Me: "I don't know. That's why I'm asking you."

The Bolded part is especially interesting. You yourself emphasized it but now you seem too have cast it aside completely.

And here is something I said;

...And can you point out his accusation of you? I seem to have missed it.

It's a question you never replied to, you said that you suspected Tarben

...for the randomness of his accusation of me, and also for the reason he gave for his behavior.

You never replied. Also, here is the entire post...

Paraphrasing is when you re-word a phrase while still retaining the original idea. You seem to have failed in the latter part.

Explain how I was "clearly" trying to use it as a reason to suspect him? When did I say "I suspect him because he said 'I'm scum' "? When? I didn't. I suspected him for the randomness of his accusation of me, and also for the reason he gave for his behavior. I also suspected him because he is usually more vocal. The "i'm scum" quote was only one part of the PM which you have now blown out of proportion.

I wrote the "i'm scum" quote off as a joke, not Tarden himself. You are, once again, saying things that just aren't true.

...in which you say that you suspected him

.

They sure can, and it's pretty obvious that I never called him scum. Although I still think there is the potential.

I posted the entirety of my conversation as proof, and you seem to think that I am basing my entire argument on the "I'm scum" quote, which I never even mentioned aside from paraphrasing it. Just for clarity, I'll post the conversation I had with Tarden too:

Me: Hello again mate :P I figured I would start my PMs with you like I usually do. You have the ability to tell when I am scum, I wish I could say the same thing about myself. Hopefully things will turn out better for us this time than the last two times we've talked in private. I know the game is just starting, so I'm really just PMing you to say "hi, I'm going to stalk you and stuff for the rest of the game".

Him: No I'm scum don't do it.

Me: :D

Him (a day later): Dude are you seriously scum again?? Way to go man.

Me: Whaaaaaaat? ... I think you are trying to bait a reaction out of my like you tried last game. Nice try, but I need to actually be scum for that tactic to work.

Him: Guess the joke's on me then. If only you were scum.

Me: I can't help feeling that you are playing with me here... Do you know anything that I don't?

Him: I'm just messing around. Not much to do for Day one.

Do you see why I thought he was weird? This is exactly the behavior that a bold traitor would have. You can see by my reaction that I thought the "I'm scum" quote was a joke at the time. And you can look into my PMs with Pudding that I make it clear that I thought it was a joke. I told Pudding of this conversation, and for some reason he takes the "I'm scum" as the only reason I'm suspicious of Tarden. He doesn't even address the weird behavior. That's why I'm a bit pissed right now. If you look at my PMs with Pudding, you will see that I never even speak of the "I'm scum" quote as being a reason for Tarden's scummi-ness. I say that he has been acting weird, but that includes much more than just the "I'm scum" quote.

I agree with Pudding. I'm done for tonight. Look over the conversations we had and decide for yourself...

This post also implies suspicion. In short, you have stated or implied that you were suspicious of him constantly, yet you have also said that you are not suspicious, oftentimes in the same post.

What you just said makes no sense. What is more subtle that telling a casual joke? It would have worked to alert me that he was scum if I was looking for the traitor. Of course he has no idea about my alignment, that's why he didn't outright say "Yo, I'm the scum recruit".

Asking if you thought there was a traitor in the game would've been a good start.

Nice defense of your scum buddy there... Nobody acts like that in mafia except pure idiots... Which I guess you have experience with.... XD

You have previously stated that you thought that could've just been being playful. Third quote from the top, read it again. And there's no call for that, the past is the past. Also, that statement smacks of metagaming.

It's not? I just read over the PMs I had with Pudding, and I must disagree with you.

Then you're reading them wrong, read them again. And I was referring to the things you said in public anyway.

You are probably scum trying to get an easy day 1 lynch while protecting your scum-buddy.

If that's the case then why haven't I voted for you?

Exactly my point. I thought he was joking at first, but he kept saying other wack-o things too. When Pudding brought up that he could be the traitor, all of the pieces fit together perfectly.

What peaces? I see no peaces! All I see is one man jumping to wild conclusions.

I don't see why you have such a big problem. We both say that Tarden is acting strange. Everyone except Lodmund would admit that. I suggested that he could be preoccupied with the happenings in another dimension called "real life", but it makes much more sense if you think of Tarden as a traitor. This brings up a good question:

I have never said that his actions weren't odd, they where strange I'll admit, I just think that they're not as important as you seem to think they are. And I will continue to do so until proven otherwise.

Lodmund, why are you so quick to attack me with your false facts? And how come you are so willing to pass up Tarden's strange behavior? I mean, as much of a joke as it could have been, he did claim to be scum. You're just willing to turn the other way and shun this? Odd...

I think that he'd've had to be a moron to admit himself as a scum to you. And the facts I present are true.

[Hinckley]

false facts

It seems to me that everyone is concluding that you are the one being false.

[Duvors]

I know you didn't read all of that, go back and read it again.

[Brickelodeon]

Lodmund, you seem to think that when I say "I am suspicious of Tarben", I mean "I think Tarben is scum", which is not true. I can have a scum read on someone without thinking him to be scum. Also, I did answer your questions, by quoting my PM with Tarben.

What peaces? I see no peaces! All I see is one man jumping to wild conclusions.

I am a fire giant, not a man. And all I see is a dwarf purposefully overlooking strange behavior... How can you not see how my conclusion makes sense?

I have never said that his actions weren't odd, they where strange I'll admit, I just think that they're not as important as you seem to think they are. And I will continue to do so until proven otherwise.

Actually, yes you did. Here.

All I see is a guy being playful because of a lack of anything better to do.

[JackJonespaw]

Thordamn it I erased my entire post.

Lodmund sums it up nicely above - I don't think there is any hint at all that Tarben is scum in that PM, admittedly, he could be, but then again, so could anyone. Reading into what I see as a blatant joke is entitled to be called 'grasping at straws'. There isn't ever a lot of evidence in Day One, and it seems like you, Brand, are trying to change that by over-analyzing a joke. And a smiley face. Neither of which I see of having any importance. I get why you posted the PM in the first place, if you even had an inkling of suspicion, then that's fine, that's what we're all about. But you've snowballed it into an enormous...uh...snowball, and it just gets more and more ridiculous, in my opinion.

Lodmund, you seem to think that when I say "I am suspicious of Tarben", I mean "I think Tarben is scum", which is not true. I can have a scum read on someone without thinking him to be scum.

So then what do you think of someone you have a scum read on? Isn't the point of having a scum read that you think someone's scum? Have I been playing these games wrong the entire time?

[Hinckley]

Lodmund, you seem to think that when I say "I am suspicious of Tarben", I mean "I think Tarben is scum", which is not true. I can have a scum read on someone without thinking him to be scum.

This is what I find so confounding. I suggest you drop this as a ...defense?... because it is what people are getting confused by. And I would wager to guess a majority (if not all) of the other players would think those two things synonymous, especially for the sake of a 4-page argument...

[Dragonfire]

Not much has changed. He is typically a weirdo but that is metagaming. People have been lynched for less than confusing what side they're supposed to say they're on.

One other thing: I looked at Mist's past games and it seems she has never been Scum. Nobody knows her Scum-game. So if she is Scum, she is probably going to be acting the same as usual. Only she Freudian-slipped this time.

I see a few lurkers around. Do you have any reactions at all to the current events? It would be nice to get a wider range of opinions here.

Although it’s hard to know who to believe with all the insults and conflicting information.

I live in the UK. I woke up this morning and saw 4 new pages made while I was asleep. Come on, mate.

Lodmund, you seem to think that when I say "I am suspicious of Tarben", I mean "I think Tarben is scum", which is not true. I can have a scum read on someone without thinking him to be scum.

:wacko: What even is this? If you scum-read someone, then it means that you think they are scum. Mild suspicion / FoS is a lesser degree of suspicion, but calling it a scum-read clearly implies that you think he is Scum.

If Tarben is the traitor, then he's done a very poor job of trying to find the Scum. I really can't see an experienced player like Tarben doing this as Scum. Brand has also been acting weirdly, enough to put him on my suspicions list, but I'm not convinced he's Scum; I had a strange dream of a cosplay world where he was very scummy but in fact, Town.

[Tamamono]

You're both nuts! Tarden's behavior with me was odd, firmly odd, you won't find me changing that. He said he wasn't stimulated by Day One's activity and that was why he wasn't active but that he planned to jump on someone today yet named no suspicions.

You're both confounding!

I honestly don't have any real scumreads as of now. There's a few things I find weird or suspicious, but nothing really to go on. For example:

You are saying that you didn't accuse him, yet now you're saying you're suspicious of him?

Thinking about it, it could be that Tarben could be the traitor. He could've been messing with you to see if maybe you would say something that could mean you were a scum member.

True, he should've had a reason to say that, I don't really see why he would've said "I'm scum" that easily.

It feels like this young lass here just weighed both sides of the debate and threw her arms up in the air. "Well, he could be scum... but he could also... not be scum. " Lambi, what say you?

Plus until this debacle I didn't have a read on you, Pudding; I was not going to collaborate with somebody who had duped me before without having some kind of confidence in his allegiance.

I don't see why you have such a big problem. We both say that Tarden is acting strange. Everyone except Lodmund would admit that. I suggested that he could be preoccupied with the happenings in another dimension called "real life", but it makes much more sense if you think of Tarden as a traitor. This brings up a good question:

Why are you trying to deflect onto me now? It's a bit late for that methinks. Didn't you dismiss your hairbrained theory after I spoke out in thread? I think you're an Einherjar like me, but this behavior is making me think otherwise...

[TheLazyChicken]

It feels like this young lass here just weighed both sides of the debate and threw her arms up in the air. "Well, he could be scum... but he could also... not be scum. " Lambi, what say you?

I'm in the middle, I don't really know if you could be a scum traitor trying to find the other scum members which could be likely or if you're just a bored townie.

[Brickelodeon]

Ahh well. If you guys think me to be scum, vote me off. I can assure you that I am town here, but it's not like saying that will help at all. I re-read a few things, and I think I can see where I don't make sense in a few places. I guess I have equated being suspicious of someone and outright thinking that someone is scum are two different things, but I guess they aren't. I still hold that Tarben has acted strangely, and I think it's very likely that he is the traitor. That said, all the proof I have is out there for you to look at. I also say that Lodmund jumped on my bandwagon rather quickly, and simply passing off Tarben's actions as "being playful" is suspicious in my book. The PMs are out there for everyone to look at. You decide, was I just discussing the game, or did I have darker intentions? Pudding seems to think the latter, but I will still say that I was just telling him who I was suspicious of and giving reasons for my suspicion.

[Mencot]

Ahh well. If you guys think me to be scum, vote me off. I can assure you that I am town here, but it's not like saying that will help at all. I re-read a few things, and I think I can see where I don't make sense in a few places. I guess I have equated being suspicious of someone and outright thinking that someone is scum are two different things, but I guess they aren't. I still hold that Tarben has acted strangely, and I think it's very likely that he is the traitor. That said, all the proof I have is out there for you to look at. I also say that Lodmund jumped on my bandwagon rather quickly, and simply passing off Tarben's actions as "being playful" is suspicious in my book. The PMs are out there for everyone to look at. You decide, was I just discussing the game, or did I have darker intentions? Pudding seems to think the latter, but I will still say that I was just telling him who I was suspicious of and giving reasons for my suspicion.

What bandvagon are you talking about? Nobody has vote anything yet!

Stop playing the reincarnation of Dufa the godless (def), you ain´t.