Ragnarök Now 3: Day One

[Hinckley]

Since when is this outright calling them scum? I can say that I have a scum-read on someone, but that doesn't mean I think they are scum... You, once again, are twisting my words around you tricky devil.

Since the rules don't seem to prohibit it, I will post more directly what you said. You said he seemed the most Scum-like to you. I paraphrased it as "I think Tarden is Scum". What do you think paraphrasing is?

The fact of this is that you said you thought Tarden was joking until I brought it up here when you were clearly trying to use it in private as a reason to suspect him. And now you are trying to mince words that have nothing to do with your apparent lie. Me saying you said Tarden is Scum when you said he is the most Scum-like pales in comparison to you lying.

Brand told me in private he was suspicious of Tarden because Tarden claimed to be Scum by PM. He said the things Tarden were saying were "very strange" and "very weird". I asked him what and he told me that Tarden claimed to be Scum in private. Then he proposed Tarden might be messing with him after saying before posting it that it was strange and weird. Then he said he didn't know and would keep an eye on him.

So, why press me about Tarden twice and when I ask him why does he say how weird the private interaction, post that and now say he wrote it off as a joke the entire time. He brought it to me as reason to suspect Tarden. Now he apparently suspects me and not Tarden? If voting were open right now, I'd vote for Brand.

[Duvors]

Ah ha! Mr. Pudding, you have made a few errors in your version of our conversation:

Or you have.

You do not point out that I say that I think he is potentially joking (I make that very clear). I know that a person with as much experience as Tarben would never say something so brash and stupid, that's why I was not planning on saying anything about it until you managed to make it a focal point of our conversation. One of us is screwing the conversation up. I did point out that I thought Tarben was being exceptionally quiet, and I thought that to be very odd for someone of his age. I did not ever say that I thought he was scum, as Mr. Pudding would make it seem.

So if you think all this why then do you act as if you suspect him of being the scum recruiter/recruitee?

If the audience would like, I would be happy to post an exact copy of the conversation we had. Then we could know who is the one screwing things up.

The truth of your account would be impossible to verify due to the fact that you cannot use the quote button, thereby making the account utterly worthless.

[Brickelodeon]

The old man is potentially right, and we could both be innocent. But let us not drop this subject yet. I would like to dig a bit deeper and analyze the conversation to see what it was really like. I read through the rules, and I don't see any rule against direct quotes from PMs with non-host players. Therefore I will quote everything relevant to the subject:

Me: "He [Tarden] has been acting very strange in my opinion. He said some very weird things to me, and when I asked him what was up, he said that he was just bored with day. It could be that he is preoccupied with real life stuff. Who knows."

Pudding: "What was weird?"

Me: "Here's the convo (paraphrased of course):

Me: Hi, I would like to talk with you for the rest of the game.

Him: Don't, I'm scum.

Me: Haha

Him (a day later): You are scum aren't you?

Me: The megabluck is this?

Him: Hmm, guess I was wrong. I wish you were scum.

Me: You are acting crazy, what's up?

Him: I'm bored with day 1.

Me: Okay.

It could be that he was just messing around with me. Seems like something Tammo would do. Idk, I'll just watch him some more." (Note, I did not bold the selected phrases in PM)

Pudding: "Is he a Traitor? "

Me: "I don't know. That's why I'm asking you."

[Hinckley]

And this is how it started:

You: 'Ello there mate! So I just thought I'd start good PM conversation with you to get the ball rolling here. Who all are you suspicious of? Obviously, I wouldn't be PMing you if I thought you were scum, I know from previous games that you always start out by accusing people of being scum for the most minuscule things. That's your town game... I think... Anyway, so far Mencot and Tammo seem the most scum-like to me. Tammo usually talks a TON more, and the only time I've ever seen him not talk that much was when he was scum. Mencot is always a hard read for me because he plays so naively. I could be wrong, but I've got a gut feeling that he might be scum. What about you?

Me: Mencot. I'm at the movies. Maybe I'll have more later.

You: Have you thought any more about Tammo? He's only posted once, and the post was 100% fluff. He's been online for most of the day, so I see no reason why he shouldn't be joining in on our conversation. He's usually a lot more vocal, right? I must admit that I always watch him more closely than I watch everyone else, but that's because I respect his skill to deceive. Thoughts?

Me: He also usually PMs me really early, like during the confirmation thread. Maybe I should poke him in private. Not in the privates... I mean by PM.

You: I have already been PMing him... He has been acting very strange in my opinion. He said some very weird things to me, and when I asked him what was up, he said that he was just bored with day 1. It could be that he is preoccupied with real life stuff. Who knows.

______________________________

Maybe I'm dealing with two Scum who want to verify the other?

OK...now it's Mafia, I'm getting paranoid...

I don't know, Bard. I have trouble thinking you are Loyal. The way you accused me of lying about what was said and then posting the second half of the conversation when I had started at the beginning. It seems you were trying to misrepresent what was said.

And your is a possessive word, it means "belonging to you" and you're is the contraction of "you" and "are". They are not interchangeable.

[Brickelodeon]

Since the rules don't seem to prohibit it, I will post more directly what you said. You said he seemed the most Scum-like to you. I paraphrased it as "I think Tarden is Scum". What do you think paraphrasing is?

Paraphrasing is when you re-word a phrase while still retaining the original idea. You seem to have failed in the latter part.

The fact of this is that you said you thought Tarden was joking until I brought it up here when you were clearly trying to use it in private as a reason to suspect him. And now you are trying to mince words that have nothing to do with your apparent lie. Me saying you said Tarden is Scum when you said he is the most Scum-like pales in comparison to you lying.

Brand told me in private he was suspicious of Tarden because Tarden claimed to be Scum by PM. He said the things Tarden were saying were "very strange" and "very weird". I asked him what and he told me that Tarden claimed to be Scum in private. Then he proposed Tarden might be messing with him after saying before posting it that it was strange and weird. Then he said he didn't know and would keep an eye on him.

Explain how I was "clearly" trying to use it as a reason to suspect him? When did I say "I suspect him because he said 'I'm scum' "? When? I didn't. I suspected him for the randomness of his accusation of me, and also for the reason he gave for his behavior. I also suspected him because he is usually more vocal. The "i'm scum" quote was only one part of the PM which you have now blown out of proportion.

So, why press me about Tarden twice and when I ask him why does he say how weird the private interaction, post that and now say he wrote it off as a joke the entire time. He brought it to me as reason to suspect Tarden. Now he apparently suspects me and not Tarden? If voting were open right now, I'd vote for Brand.

I wrote the "i'm scum" quote off as a joke, not Tarden himself. You are, once again, saying things that just aren't true.

[Duvors]

Maybe I'm dealing with two Scum who want to verify the other?

OK...now it's Mafia, I'm getting paranoid...

Why would the scum need to verify each other? Do you think that this game a a scum player who doesn't know who the other scum are?

[Brickelodeon]

And your is a possessive word, it means "belonging to you" and you're is the contraction of "you" and "are". They are not interchangeable.

GG me. I got rekt.

[jluck]

Why would the scum need to verify each other? Do you think that this game a a scum player who doesn't know who the other scum are?

It's possible there's a recruit who doesn't know the rest of the team, not uncommon in large games. It'd just be uncommon for them to fish this early.

[Hinckley]

Why would the scum need to verify each other? Do you think that this game a a scum player who doesn't know who the other scum are?

No. Trying to bus one another. The one who doesn't get lynched would seem like Town.

[Duvors]

Explain how I was "clearly" trying to use it as a reason to suspect him? When did I say "I suspect him because he said 'I'm scum' "? When? I didn't. I suspected him for the randomness of his accusation of me, and also for the reason he gave for his behavior. I also suspected him because he is usually more vocal. The "i'm scum" quote was only one part of the PM which you have now blown out of proportion.

Mister, that is exactly what you said. In public no less. And his reason seem reasonable, who would reveal themselves as scum on day one? And can you point out his accusation of you? I seem to have missed it.

I wrote the "i'm scum" quote off as a joke, not Tarden himself. You are, once again, saying things that just aren't true.

Pudding-Head never said that.

No. Trying to bus one another. The one who doesn't get lynched would seem like Town.

Oh, okay.

[Hinckley]

If you are just wasting my time, I will forever hate you.

Paraphrasing is when you re-word a phrase while still retaining the original idea. You seem to have failed in the latter part.

No, it was a paraphrase. We're going to have to agree to disagree. You are still mincing words. Let it go. Everyone can see what you actually said.

Explain how I was "clearly" trying to use it as a reason to suspect him? When did I say "I suspect him because he said 'I'm scum' "? When? I didn't. I suspected him for the randomness of his accusation of me, and also for the reason he gave for his behavior. I also suspected him because he is usually more vocal. The "i'm scum" quote was only one part of the PM which you have now blown out of proportion.

You said he was acting weird and saying very strange things and you posted your conversation. If you didn't suspect him on that then how is the behavior weird and the things he's saying strange? Can you be so brain dead that you can't see that you were accusing him based on what he said to you in PM? I've directly quoted what you said to me. What is the matter with you?

I wrote the "i'm scum" quote off as a joke, not Tarden himself.

:wacko: I have other things to concentrate on. You clearly have a thought process I can't follow or you are Scum but I don't care to continue speaking with a brick wall tonight. I have no idea what you're even saying in that last part. Where do I even say you wrote off Tarden the person? :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

[Ranger of the Forest]

:wacko: I have other things to concentrate on.

What else do you have to concentrate on? What on earth is more important than this?

This spat, or whatever you want to call it, has arguably been the most interesting thing that’s happened yet, though. Not necessarily the content of the PMs, but the reactions to them.

[Brickelodeon]

No, it was a paraphrase. We're going to have to agree to disagree. You are still mincing words. Let it go. Everyone can see what you actually said.

They sure can, and it's pretty obvious that I never called him scum. Although I still think there is the potential.

You said he was acting weird and saying very strange things and you posted your conversation. If you didn't suspect him on that then how is the behavior weird and the things he's saying strange? Can you be so brain dead that you can't see that you were accusing him based on what he said to you in PM? I've directly quoted what you said to me. What is the matter with you?

I posted the entirety of my conversation as proof, and you seem to think that I am basing my entire argument on the "I'm scum" quote, which I never even mentioned aside from paraphrasing it. Just for clarity, I'll post the conversation I had with Tarden too:

Me: Hello again mate :P I figured I would start my PMs with you like I usually do. You have the ability to tell when I am scum, I wish I could say the same thing about myself. Hopefully things will turn out better for us this time than the last two times we've talked in private. I know the game is just starting, so I'm really just PMing you to say "hi, I'm going to stalk you and stuff for the rest of the game".

Him: No I'm scum don't do it.

Me: :D

Him (a day later): Dude are you seriously scum again?? Way to go man.

Me: Whaaaaaaat? ... I think you are trying to bait a reaction out of my like you tried last game. Nice try, but I need to actually be scum for that tactic to work.

Him: Guess the joke's on me then. If only you were scum.

Me: I can't help feeling that you are playing with me here... Do you know anything that I don't?

Him: I'm just messing around. Not much to do for Day one.

Do you see why I thought he was weird? This is exactly the behavior that a bold traitor would have. You can see by my reaction that I thought the "I'm scum" quote was a joke at the time. And you can look into my PMs with Pudding that I make it clear that I thought it was a joke. I told Pudding of this conversation, and for some reason he takes the "I'm scum" as the only reason I'm suspicious of Tarden. He doesn't even address the weird behavior. That's why I'm a bit pissed right now. If you look at my PMs with Pudding, you will see that I never even speak of the "I'm scum" quote as being a reason for Tarden's scummi-ness. I say that he has been acting weird, but that includes much more than just the "I'm scum" quote.

I agree with Pudding. I'm done for tonight. Look over the conversations we had and decide for yourself...

[Ranger of the Forest]

I see a few lurkers around. Do you have any reactions at all to the current events? It would be nice to get a wider range of opinions here.

Although it’s hard to know who to believe with all the insults and conflicting information.

[TrumpetKing]

Eeek! I'm late!

What a jumbled mess already. I'm not really sure why Tarden "claiming" scum is necessarily being looked into that much. I don't see why someone who is scum would seriously claim scum at all, let alone on day one. Am I missing something here?

On the topic of metagaming, it's never been that helpful. Usually, it's helpful as a day one "he's not acting the same as he does!!! Lynch him!!" claims, but with the tool of metagaming, we can determine that it really usually isn't that accurate, or even that helpful.

[Adam]

I don't know, Bard. I have trouble thinking you are Loyal. The way you accused me of lying about what was said and then posting the second half of the conversation when I had started at the beginning. It seems you were trying to misrepresent what was said.

Maybe, having been terrible at mafia for so long, I just speak the language of inexperienced players, but I'm frankly getting more or less the same thing from the conversations the two of you have posted. I can't see any blatant contradictions. At the very least, the "contradictions" that you both have pointed out don't seem very inflammatory. I'm wondering if this is less two people trying to misrepresent what the other said, and more two people working hard to claim that the other person is misrepresenting something.

As Tarben himself suggested...

This kinda looks like two Einherjars going at it now...

That said, I still find Brand untrustworthy (I'm not sure how I feel about Pudding-Head yet). I'm finding it hard to interpret his comments about Cranebeinn as anything other than a defense. I've read what you said several times (I'll post it just below this for reference), and I don't really see an accusation in there.

I do believe that you meant to say "...alone and (Serial killer) kill the rest of us." That would make much more sense. Perhaps you got things mixed up and forgot that the vigilante is supposed to be good... It was probably just an honest mistake, but I'm willing to reach pretty far on the first day.

What you're saying here feels more like a defense against my post attacking Cranebeinn than anything else. Then, we have the classic mafia post:

I am disturbed by how there are only 4 or 5 of us actually discussing things... Drop the fluff everyone. I want to hear your opinion. If everyone is lazy, the corrupted are sure to win. Speak up!

Sometimes I wonder if scum teams keep this post on the writeboard so that they can use it whenever they need it. It happens every game, at least once. A player who's done nothing but respond to attacks asks for quiet people to speak up so that he or she can seem like a good, active townie by comparison. Like I said before, I'm personally not seeing anything damning in this little slap-fight between you and Pudding-Head, but I definitely think it's suspicious that you messaged both Pudding-Head and Tarben so early. That kind of thing seems like fishing to me, and smart townies never go fishing.

Since I still think Brand's post about Cranebeinn looks like a defense, I'm also still suspicious of Cranebeinn himself. At the very least, I'm going to keep an eye fixed on you. I'm finding it very hard to believe that you took Jarl for a serial killer because of a single fluff post.

I don’t feel as if I really have any exciting insights to add as of yet. Not that we’re very far into the day. But still. Waiting for stuff to happen is frustrating

I have only vague suspicions, but I don’t feel very comfortable in sharing them right now. I’m going to go back and look more closely at all the posts so far. I’ll let everyone know if I find anything interesting.

If I had a whore, a keg of mead, and a leg of mutton for every time I heard someone say this, I'd be one damn happy shieldmaiden. In general when it comes to mafia, don't just tell us that you have suspicions, tell us what those suspicions are. Saying that you suspect people and that you're going to "look more closely at all the posts so far" does us nothing. Many times, people will say this to compensate for the fact that they have nothing to say. I have never ever seen somebody say this and then come back later with the results of their close post reading.

[Ranger of the Forest]

If I had a whore, a keg of mead, and a leg of mutton for every time I heard someone say this, I'd be one damn happy shieldmaiden. In general when it comes to mafia, don't just tell us that you have suspicions, tell us what those suspicions are. Saying that you suspect people and that you're going to "look more closely at all the posts so far" does us nothing. Many times, people will say this to compensate for the fact that they have nothing to say. I have never ever seen somebody say this and then come back later with the results of their close post reading.

If you’ve actually read the thread, you can see that I did go back and ask a few questions about some earlier posts. And no one can really have concrete suspicions on day one. Maybe I don’t feel like sharing what few, vague suspicions I have this early on. I have stated before that I find the interactions between Brand and Cranebeinn to be quite odd. Same can be said of this weird Pudding-Head/Brand/Tarben thing that’s going on.

[Adam]

If you’ve actually read the thread, you can see that I did go back and ask a few questions about some earlier posts. And no one can really have concrete suspicions on day one. Maybe I don’t feel like sharing what few, vague suspicions I have this early on. I have stated before that I find the interactions between Brand and Cranebeinn to be quite odd. Same can be said of this weird Pudding-Head/Brand/Tarben thing that’s going on.

No need to get so defensive. What I said wasn't meant as an attack on you so much as a piece of advice and a statement to the meadhall at large that things like promises to dig up info, inexperience, and it being the first day are not excuses for scumminess or inexperience.

[Mencot]

That is disgusting! Who would even consider such a thing.

Well, I hope to get some suspicion from you. That's one of the things that made me excited about this game. Missed you!

If we were voting right now, I'd vote for Mist. However, let me play Loki's advocate and point out that Mist is normally, metagamingly Commander Cuckoo Pants.

Thanks, I have heard worse

[Ranger of the Forest]

No need to get so defensive. What I said wasn't meant as an attack on you so much as a piece of advice and a statement to the meadhall at large that things like promises to dig up info, inexperience, and it being the first day are not excuses for scumminess or inexperience.

I'm not trying to be defensive here.You're the one who's calling me out on something. Am I just supposed to ignore that? Not that everything I found while looking back was immensely important, but I wanted to get a few things that hadn't been discussed clarified, both for myself and everyone else. I also want to be an active part of this town. I didn't sign up for this so I could sit around and not participate. I'm trying my best to follow along and asked questions when needed.I'm sorry if my contributions don't meet your standards.

I mean, your general point is valid, but it's hard not to feel attacked when you single me out like that.

If that makes sense? I need sleep. I'll be back later though.

[Chromeknight]

I get that Brand's 'defensy/suspicioning' is odd and his interaction with Puddinghead is too. What I'm not sure about is how to respond to the suggestion that his action makes me look bad.

I didn't ask for his reply, for either the cack handed agreement or the clumsy shade casting. That's all on him.

[Tamamono]

This isn't helpful. I think you're both Einherjar.

Also Brand stop posting PMs! Isn't that a violation?

[Piratedave84]

Hum ....

So while we're focusing on the who-said-what aspect of the discussion, it dawns on me that a portion of it went unanswered/was overlooked a bit; why would you know/think there are traitors and why would you allude to being one in the first place.

This is not something we see too often and I'm curious as to why it was brought up.

[Hinckley]

This is not something we see too often and I'm curious as to why it was brought up.

It's actually quite common. When Brand told me Tarden had said "I'm Scum" and then later "You're Scum,made to you?" Which by his own definition is a bad paraphrase...I asked if he was a traitor because he sounded like he was fishing. The actual conversation seems less so.

Check the rules, the direct quoting of PMs from other players is not prohibited.

Not ",made to you", "aren't you". Stupid autocorrect.

[MagPiesRUs]

You may now vote. With 23 players, 12 votes are required to lynch. 48 hours remain in the day.

I have updated the rules to disallow the quoting of PMs from other players. Since this wasn't explicitly stated in the rules, and since no timestamps were used, no one who has quoted PMs prior to this will be penalised.