Bionicle 2008 Images and Discussion

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

lol, indeed.

But still, I cant help looking at the new stuff... After all, there might be something good in there.

*shrug* Well, I may still get Pohatu Phantoka for those arm-copter things. I'm sure I can use them - and the mask is pretty neat - like a combo between the Vahi and the Kakama Mata.

@Falls: Indeed, it gets old. Which is why I've all but stopped - particularly over on BZP. There be no point in doing so over there at all :P

Sorry for the mess.

[Zarkan]

Gregs quotes - such as "The reason 2001 and 2002 were so simple to understand because there was no storyline outside the comics" infuriate me, as he blatantly disregards all the work of Templar studios as it wasnt "canon".

Actually, it isn't completely canon. Fact is, Templar took some creative liberties with the storyline and changed certain elements of it. The most prevalent is the Manas battle, which encompased dozens of crabs. However, the books written by C. A. Hapka, which ARE considered completely canon, had only two Manas. This interpretation got caried into 2006, where the Matoran traveling to Karzahni commented on how so many manas could be there, when the Toa said there had been only true. Greg is disregarding Templar's creation because it was decided years ago, even before 2006, that the MNLOG was not the end all reference to the storyline. The books are held above it, and the comics even further. Thus, you can't get angry at Greg for that when he's telling the truth, in a sense.

the Makuta himself turned into an entire species and he himself became a generic "Grr, you've foiled me again! I'll be back! Rawr!" bad guy, rather then the all-encompassing evil he was portrayed as in 2001

I've followed the storyline as much as you have, and I have to disagree. I truly think he's still as dark and evil as he has been before. The only difference I really see is that there are many more makuta than before, but even then Makuta still is the big boss, who took over the Brotherhood and eliminated all who disagreed with his plan. He's extremely inteligent, and very complex psycologically, and I still love him. Plus, where was he even acting like what you said anyway? Greg has confirmed that Makuta still has control over many of the factors of the storyline, and never once has he said or thought that the Toa TRULY foiled him. It's all part of his master plan to take over the universe and replace Mata Nui. ;-)

One more thing: Ravensburg, I must say when it comes to Greg F, you really seem to be flipflopping with ever post. You've posted things like "May Templar forever outshine Greg" and "he's a tallentless hack," yet you've also said things like "His comics in 2001 were the finest work we've had in Bionicle" and "He can write a mean comic book, I just don't think he's suited for the storyline." So, I really need to ask you: what do you truly think of Greg? Do you truly hate him and wish he was fired, or are you just not happy with his work? Because there are varying opinions on how good his work really is, and not all the ones saying it's awesome are soley from the 10 year old members partly populating BZP. :-/

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Well, I respect him for the amount of dedication he's shown in dealing with folk like me and the screaming 10-year-old BZPers; I certainly wouldnt want to put up with that.

I do think he writes a good comic book, and that his work on the 2001 and 2002 comic books in particular was exceptional. Lastly, his work on the Metru Nui scholastic books was entertaining; Voyage of Fear is my favorite Bionicle book.

However, here is where the problem starts. It seems like as soon as they took the figurative "leash" off Greg in mid-2005, everything really started going out of control. Thats when we got 3,000 Toa, massive Toa/Dark Hunter/Brotherhood wars, Hakann killing two freakin Toa with just his eyebeams, and the Bionicle comics went from providing an interesting look into the Bionicle storyline to 12 (?) pages of shooting, blasting, and plot-device Zamors.

Personally, I think the simplicity and depth that Templar showed in their Bionicle work does outshine Greg as far as creating a universe goes. Greg portrayed the Vahki as simple, clockwork mechanical law-enforcement freaks; while this worked and I have no grudge with it, I found Templars very grim portrayal of the Vahki much more interesting. The Vahki animations reminded you of 1984, and generally gave a very dark and oppressive atmosphere of totalitarian dictatorship on part of Dume and his inhuman mechanical Vahki. It is this kind of atmosphere of place and personality that Templar was able to give; Greg has been unable to match this. To him, making a story "darker" is to simply blow stuff up and have people die. I disagree.

And all thats just reffering to the Vahki episodes; Dont get me into MNOLG I and the Bohrok webisodes ;)

As far as much of Greg's most recent work, as well as some of his comments, I do believe that, when removed from his natural habitat of writing childrens action books and comic books and put in charge of developing a mythological universe, he has become a "Talentless hack" at it. He is, IMHO, simply not suited to it. While Templar gave more focus on deep, individual character personality, epic deeds, and unlikely plucky heroes, Greg seems to give much more focus on characters giving "witty" and "humorous" comments, Villians giving stereotypical "Grr, I are average evil baddy!" lines, and lots of explosions. Character depth has been substituted for vague character outlines that are interesting enough to make you want more character exploration, yet all you get is bad dialogue. The villians have interesting concepts, but spit out so much bad dialogue that you have trouble defining said concepts. And once we get into combat, gone are the days when interesting mask and elemental powers were used on each other - Lets just shoot at each other! And when we're done doing that, we can load plot device zamors in and shoot at each other some MORE!

As far as I am concerned, he is good at writing comic books, but completely unsuited for heading up the BIONICLE story team. His sources of inspiration are westerns and DC comic books. I both respect him for his past work and dedication, and loathe him for his revisionist history comments and utter butchering of everything I found interesting in the official Bionicle mythos. I just dont think he has enough of the right amount of skill neccesary to do this.

On the score of Makuta, I can see where hes still the big baddy; the problem is is that he is now a DIFFERENT kind of baddy. He is currently a standard comic-book-villian that plots and schemes and makes grand evil actions that will be foiled by the heroes - I am sure Jinzo can give you a good comic book simile.

However, in 2001, he was portrayed entirely differently; For example, Kapura saying that Makuta was with him then, in the burnt forest, and in the shadows. Furthermore, when the Toa met him in his lair to do battle, he did not first appear to them as a big evil armored beastie (2003) or a giant armored titan with a huge sword (2007), but rather as an infected McToran (2001). I found this very interesting; furthermore, when he disintegrated his Matoran form and turned into a tentacled monster, that was extremely interesting to me too; watching the tentacles tear apart and reform like muscle sinew was downright creepy. Makuta was, in 2001, portrayed more like an elder god of ancient mythology then a rather standard greedy and manipulative storyline villain. Having a race of Makutas - with him just as one of them - and giving him lame dialogue like "I have 1000 ways I could kill you... and 941 of them hurt." just dumps the character on his face, IMHO. He comes across to me as a generic bad guy - not as an all-encompassing evil. By giving him a species of his own and the like, the Makuta of 2001 simply ceased to exist.

- Helden

[Darkness Falls]

Well, I respect him for the amount of dedication he's shown in dealing with folk like me and the screaming 10-year-old BZPers; I certainly wouldnt want to put up with that.

I do think he writes a good comic book, and that his work on the 2001 and 2002 comic books in particular was exceptional. Lastly, his work on the Metru Nui scholastic books was entertaining; Voyage of Fear is my favorite Bionicle book.

However, here is where the problem starts. It seems like as soon as they took the figurative "leash" off Greg in mid-2005, everything really started going out of control. Thats when we got 3,000 Toa, massive Toa/Dark Hunter/Brotherhood wars, Hakann killing two freakin Toa with just his eyebeams, and the Bionicle comics went from providing an interesting look into the Bionicle storyline to 12 (?) pages of shooting, blasting, and plot-device Zamors.

Personally, I think the simplicity and depth that Templar showed in their Bionicle work does outshine Greg as far as creating a universe goes. Greg portrayed the Vahki as simple, clockwork mechanical law-enforcement freaks; while this worked and I have no grudge with it, I found Templars very grim portrayal of the Vahki much more interesting. The Vahki animations reminded you of 1984, and generally gave a very dark and oppressive atmosphere of totalitarian dictatorship on part of Dume and his inhuman mechanical Vahki. It is this kind of atmosphere of place and personality that Templar was able to give; Greg has been unable to match this. To him, making a story "darker" is to simply blow stuff up and have people die. I disagree.

And all thats just reffering to the Vahki episodes; Dont get me into MNOLG I and the Bohrok webisodes ;)

As far as much of Greg's most recent work, as well as some of his comments, I do believe that, when removed from his natural habitat of writing childrens action books and comic books and put in charge of developing a mythological universe, he has become a "Talentless hack" at it. He is, IMHO, simply not suited to it. While Templar gave more focus on deep, individual character personality, epic deeds, and unlikely plucky heroes, Greg seems to give much more focus on characters giving "witty" and "humorous" comments, Villians giving stereotypical "Grr, I are average evil baddy!" lines, and lots of explosions. Character depth has been substituted for vague character outlines that are interesting enough to make you want more character exploration, yet all you get is bad dialogue. The villians have interesting concepts, but spit out so much bad dialogue that you have trouble defining said concepts. And once we get into combat, gone are the days when interesting mask and elemental powers were used on each other - Lets just shoot at each other! And when we're done doing that, we can load plot device zamors in and shoot at each other some MORE!

As far as I am concerned, he is good at writing comic books, but completely unsuited for heading up the BIONICLE story team. His sources of inspiration are westerns and DC comic books. I both respect him for his past work and dedication, and loathe him for his revisionist history comments and utter butchering of everything I found interesting in the official Bionicle mythos. I just dont think he has enough of the right amount of skill neccesary to do this.

On the score of Makuta, I can see where hes still the big baddy; the problem is is that he is now a DIFFERENT kind of baddy. He is currently a standard comic-book-villian that plots and schemes and makes grand evil actions that will be foiled by the heroes - I am sure Jinzo can give you a good comic book simile.

However, in 2001, he was portrayed entirely differently; For example, Kapura saying that Makuta was with him then, in the burnt forest, and in the shadows. Furthermore, when the Toa met him in his lair to do battle, he did not first appear to them as a big evil armored beastie (2003) or a giant armored titan with a huge sword (2007), but rather as an infected McToran (2001). I found this very interesting; furthermore, when he disintegrated his Matoran form and turned into a tentacled monster, that was extremely interesting to me too; watching the tentacles tear apart and reform like muscle sinew was downright creepy. Makuta was, in 2001, portrayed more like an elder god of ancient mythology then a rather standard greedy and manipulative storyline villain. Having a race of Makutas - with him just as one of them - and giving him lame dialogue like "I have 1000 ways I could kill you... and 941 of them hurt." just dumps the character on his face, IMHO. He comes across to me as a generic bad guy - not as an all-encompassing evil. By giving him a species of his own and the like, the Makuta of 2001 simply ceased to exist.

- Helden

I've got to admit, Makuta's "I am Nothing" monologue was one of the best moments in Bionicle, hands-down.

However, Makuta, in my opinion(to respect you, Helden), has not become a scheming villain. In fact, I think he's become a much more respectable character, examples being Time Trap and Prisoners of the Pit. While being dropped from his "mythic god" status, he shows a rational and drive that is almost commendable, if it had been used for good.

Time Trap made him what he is now- a sort of sadistic character with a cruel outlook on life. You've got to admit, the spirit of Makuta was kept up until 2004- his utter control of the Metru-nui situation was very fantastic, indeed. But Makuta was given a realistic twist, especially when you had the Dark Hunters up against him. The DH seemed hard to kill in 2004, but when you apply their strength to that of Makuta, you see they have no hope. Prisoners of the Pit showed that Makuta was totally used to failure at the hands of the Toa, and that he was taking it into his own hands. He may have not been an all-encompassing evil, but that's hard to do when you've got a robot for a body.

Got more to say... mayhap I'll bring it up tomorrow.

[Clonie]

Why do I even bother to post here, I'll only get ignored when I make a good point or two.

Well anyway, Helden, you're exaggerating on a few points, but it seems pretty fair overall, I can't really argue with you since it's just taste.

I dunno about Hakann killing Toa with his eye beams...

To him, making a story "darker" is to simply blow stuff up and have people die. I disagree.

I also disagree. Would you like me to send him that quote and ask if he really thinks that?

[Zaktan of the Shadows]

Hey guys, you realize there was a fair amount of explosions in 2001 - 2004, right? And people died in 2003...

Greg made the story darker by giving brutal personalities, brutal attacks, and a darker theme. Explosions and death have nothing to do with it.

-ZotS

[Ikki o' Moopyville]

How does brutal = dark? :-P

I didn't see many explosions or guns in 2001, though... not that I mind the former much, nor do I think these are the sole reasons for Bionicle's derogating path.

Ah well. 'tis Lego. Alter what you like, or rather, what you dislike. Now more than ever perhaps. *sweet*

-Ikk

[VBBN]

Icarax is the laziest, dumbest, most worthless release LEGO has done yet

[Zaktan of the Shadows]

Well, Bionicle got darker because all the colours are darker. :'-( Main reason.

Yes, Mata colours were the essence of life. It was good that they brought some of it back this year (Maxilos, Gadunka).

-ZotS

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

I may get Pohatu... the helicopter things could make good gear for my Toa. And, the mask is pretty fair.

[Ikki o' Moopyville]

Vahi Nuva. Or Metru. You decide. :-P

Regarding Mata colors... I miss Lewa green...

-Ikk

[Kynok]

We've had Zamor Spheres for three years in a row now. *sing*

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

No we havnt!

We've had Zamor spheres, solidified air, and Light energy balls!

...

*wacko*

[Clonie]

What do you expect? They're useful parts. For ammo. :P

[Zaktan of the Shadows]

Thank god there aren't any more Zamor launchers... it was okay on the Matoran, but they expanded it to other themes, and that really scared me.

Zamor Spheres > Zamor Launchers

-ZotS

[Visorak-kal]

Guys, I've been thinking, and I believe I've figured out the deal with Icarax, as to why he has the same body as the other Phantoka. (And no, it's not because LEGO hates us.)

I myself would prefer a more-built body like Maxilos, but I think I see why this was done.

Compare the Titans in 2005 and 2007 to the Titans in 2006. Notice something? The Titans in 2006 DID NOT have Zamor launchers, the main "collectible" for that year. The Titans in 2005 and 2007 DID HAVE the projectiles for that year. It seems as if, in 2007, LEGO has tried to make the Cordaks and Squid Launchers "running features" throughout even the Titans. Every Titan had either a Cordak or a Squid Launcher, as did every playset.

So, if LEGO intends to do the same thing in 2008, then Icarax would have to have a Trydax Pod. The problem here is that the Trydax pods are connected to the Makuta PHantoka's bodies, and voila! We have Icarax with a canister set body and not a Titan body.

I'm not condoning it or anything, as I prefer complex builds, but I'm thinking this might be the reasoning behind it.

VK

[Ikki o' Moopyville]

That there's an abuse of the word 'reasoning'.

:-P

-Ikk

[Darkness Falls]

What do you expect? They're useful parts. For ammo. :P

Ha... for more than just that. They make great crystal balls, and the variety of colors creates a good mood for any sort of naturalistic environ or MoC. If you can integrate those babies in, they're fantastic parts!

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

I usually just flick them at my kittens. Make great batting-toys.

[Visorak-kal]

That there's an abuse of the word 'reasoning'.

You're referring to LEGO? Or me?

Also, they probably are trying to give Titans functions, since they got rid of old-style functions, leaving the projectiles now as the only "function" that still exists in every set.

Ha... for more than just that. They make great crystal balls, and the variety of colors creates a good mood for any sort of naturalistic environ or MoC. If you can integrate those babies in, they're fantastic parts!

They also make good guts. IMO, Irnakk has the neatest use of Zamors to date, besides their actual purpose.

VK

[Ikki o' Moopyville]

You're referring to LEGO? Or me?

Lego, for allowing it to happen. X-D Makuta sets have vast potential, as they can look like everything... so this is rather a waste.

-Ikk

[Zaktan of the Shadows]

The MoMN has three forms as sets and combiners... Maxilos, 2003 form, and Makuta Nui.

They could have thought up of a more clever way to use the Trydax pods, though. When I get a Phantoka Makuta, I'll try.

-ZotS

[Clonie]

I'm sure there's a reason for Icarax using a Tridax pod...

Anyway, Helden, are you going to give me the Ignika-gibberish quote? I gave you a quote, so you give me one.

[LordGalewind]

This is evidently not bionicle '08 Clonie and Admiral Helsen, this is all I see when I come here

Damn people, talk bionicle and quit fighting!!!

Anyways on Icarax it is quite possible the set is still a prototype, and as mentioned before Greg hasn't seen the set, so we may have not seen the true Icarax yet, and this ugly anorexic one....well......no comment.

[KMOI]

Well, if you're refering to my post, I had to refute that over-used point. I'm not just going to stand there and leave myself open to slander. And I'm sorry you thought I was reciting the American constitution. I was going this feel instead:

Anyways, as for Icarax, I'm almost sure he's very close to the final product. The pictures are from the same catalogue that shows the finalized products for other lines, such as the War Wheel for the Castle line. To be honest, I think Icarax is going to be a throwaway character who's going to get offed halfway through the year to make way for the one and only Makuta in time for the second half of 2008. But that's just wild speculation, of course. :)

As for the new orbs, I'm starting to be really skeptical about how far they can launch, given the fact that the instruction shows them simply falling flat on the ground, as well as a lack of safety symbols indicating for children not hit each other in the face. However, before anyone comments, I just want to make it clear that my heightened attention towards projectiles is in no way to be mistaken for genuine interest and support for projectiles.

Edited December 11, 2007 by KMOI