Future Castle Sets?

[Hermes Mocs]

I just found something very interesting in one of the new Harry Potter sets, 76387 Hogwarts Fluffy Encounter. There is this sticker that goes into the roof piece (the sticker in the bottom of the sheet). Notice the symbols on the left paper? At least the top one is not made up, but a historical symbol: The monogram of Charlemagne! The other one strongly reminds me of an imperial orb and may resemble the globus cruciger of the Reichskleinodien, the insignia of the Holy Roman Empire, which is also made up of some of Charlemagne's belongings (the orb is a few hundred years younger though!).

Now I'm wondering: May this be a hint to some upcoming castle sets, maybe even historical ones, in the sense of castle-y architecture sets? The Aachen Cathedral or Charlemagne's palace in Aachen come to mind (Aachen is literally plastered with bronze monograms of the above-mentioned kind!). I mean the Carolingian core of the cathedral is one of the oldest existing and intact (!) structures in Germany. Maybe a set in line with the Colosseum? I mean referencing historical figures and symbols in fictional themes is a novum, isn't it?

Would definitively buy such a set, as I'm an Aachen-grown kid :D

Edited July 3, 2021 by Hermes Mocs

[gedren_y]

1 hour ago, Hermes Mocs said:

I just found something very interesting in one of the new Harry Potter sets, 76387 Hogwarts Fluffy Encounter. There is this sticker that goes into the roof piece (the sticker in the bottom of the sheet). Notice the symbols on the left paper? At least the top one is not made up, but a historical symbol: The monogram of Charlemagne! The other one strongly reminds me of an imperial orb and may resemble the globus cruciger of the Reichskleinodien, the insignia of the Holy Roman Empire, which is also made up of some of Charlemagne's belongings (the orb is a few hundred years younger though!).

Now I'm wondering: May this be a hint to some upcoming castle sets, maybe even historical ones, in the sense of castle-y architecture sets? The Aachen Cathedral or Charlemagne's palace in Aachen come to mind (Aachen is literally plastered with bronze monograms of the above-mentioned kind!). I mean the Carolingian core of the cathedral is one of the oldest existing and intact (!) structures in Germany. Maybe a set in line with the Colosseum? I mean referencing historical figures and symbols in fictional themes is a novum, isn't it?

Would definitively buy such a set, as I'm an Aachen-grown kid :D

I seriously doubt it. Most of these kinds of stickers in the Harry Potter theme are made from production images of set decorations that don't always make it into camera frame, or from images of the Wizarding World theme park attractions. Where some decorations get modified by Lego so that they make sense in relation to the minifigs, very little beyond the stone pattern stickers are Lego generated designs.

[natesroom]

On 6/29/2021 at 3:42 AM, Lego David said:

This upcoming LOTR is supposed to be based on the Silmarillion, a book containing all of Tolkien's personal writings that were published after he died. From what I heard, as part of the contract, Amazon is forced to keep its story strictly within the boundaries of the book canon. 

Translating a bunch of personal notes and writings that were never intended for publication into a GOT-style Fantasy show that is supposed to have a wide appeal will be quite a daunting task, and unless they get some very good writers to do the job, this show is not going to pan out. And given how apparently the writers of Star Trek: Beyond have been hired for the job, I wouldn't put my hopes very high. 

 

Do you mean Star Trek Discovery?

[Lego David]

3 hours ago, natesroom said:

Do you mean Star Trek Discovery?

No, I mean Star Trek: Beyond. The latest Star Trek movie that apparently killed the franchise (I haven't seen it myself, that is just what I heard online).

[DaleDVM]

Wow...  The "castle in the forest" crowdfunding achieved and sold out almost instantly on Bricklink!  Perhaps TLG will get the hint and notice the true hunger there is for Castle sets.  8 years of pure hunger...

I had no chance as the website was malfunctioning during the sale.

 

 

[INTENSS]

56 minutes ago, DaleDVM said:

Wow...  The "castle in the forest" crowdfunding achieved and sold out almost instantly on Bricklink!  Perhaps TLG will get the hint and notice the true hunger there is for Castle sets.  8 years of pure hunger...

I had no chance as the website was malfunctioning during the sale.

 

 

Between this and the Medieval Blacksmith being on back order or sold out for the majority of the time on S@H, you would think it would clue them in.  I have my doubts.  I don’t think we’re getting a full fledged Castle theme again any time soon.  I’m pretty sure the thinking is that it’ll just pull sales from other Lego IP’s (Ninjago, etc) so there’s no additional pull and thus benefit for it.  Not worth it for the “few” AFOLs.  Now, I think a strong case can be made that a Creator Expert level Castle set each year could pull in outside fans AND satisfy our AFOL hunger for medieval goodness.  So many possibilities from the $100 to couple of hundred dollar price range.  They’ve got factions from the CMF series that they could pull from already and then just throw in a new civilian/faction here and there.  I’d go for a Raven castle, medieval trade port with ship, town siege, forest village, etc.  they could pump one of these out each year and I’d be happy.

[DaleDVM]

I agree.  I am not going to get my hopes up. 

As for the creator expert sets you mention.  They sound great, but I would only be happy if those sets came with some new factions, flags, and minifigs.  Printed and not stickers...

[Aanchir]

On 7/3/2021 at 5:33 PM, gedren_y said:

I seriously doubt it. Most of these kinds of stickers in the Harry Potter theme are made from production images of set decorations that don't always make it into camera frame, or from images of the Wizarding World theme park attractions. Where some decorations get modified by Lego so that they make sense in relation to the minifigs, very little beyond the stone pattern stickers are Lego generated designs.

They're sometimes also just Easter eggs or shout-outs to unrelated stuff that a particular set's graphic designer happens to be interested in, like the Bionicle mask as a constellation on the star chart sticker in set 76389. Regardless of the intent, I don't see any reason to think a graphic design choice in the Harry Potter theme would be meant as a "hint" about unrelated future sets or themes.

7 hours ago, INTENSS said:

Now, I think a strong case can be made that a Creator Expert level Castle set each year could pull in outside fans AND satisfy our AFOL hunger for medieval goodness.  So many possibilities from the $100 to couple of hundred dollar price range.  They’ve got factions from the CMF series that they could pull from already and then just throw in a new civilian/faction here and there.

Yeah, I think the performance of the Medieval Blacksmith set alone seems to have shown enough demand for more AFOL-targeted medieval sets in the future. Even if LEGO is reluctant to do that sort of thing as an annual series like the Modular Building, Winter Village, or classic car sets, it wouldn't surprise me if they started dabbling in more sporadic releases like they have with the Fairground Collection sets.

In interviews about the Medieval Blacksmith set, the designer Wes Talbott has certainly seemed enthusiastic about and open to the possibility that it could pave the way for future medieval buildings in a similar format! Granted, even actual LEGO designers are not immune to wishful thinking about possibilities that might never actually come to fruition (such as licensing agreements that they don't necessarily have any say in), but I don't think this particular possibility would be very far-fetched at all.

Certainly even if "Castle" as a theme has not really been active lately, castles and medieval inspired buildings more broadly have demonstrated lasting appeal, including "generic" ones like the Medieval Blacksmith and Castle in the Forest that aren't tied to a licensed or in-house IP. LEGO's current strategy with their "Adults Welcome" initiative also shows a lot more openness to pushing that category in new directions (like the Botanical Collection, the Adidas sneaker, LEGO Art mosaics, the "Everyone is Awesome" set, the Nintendo Entertainment System, etc) than what we'd seen under the earlier "Creator Expert" branding.

If LEGO is more willing to take chances on "stand-alone" adult products now (even outside the Ideas theme), that could also potentially apply to historical, fantasy, or sci-fi exclusives, which LEGO previously seemed reluctant to release except as tie-ins with other current or recent themes aimed at a younger audience.

5 hours ago, DaleDVM said:

As for the creator expert sets you mention.  They sound great, but I would only be happy if those sets came with some new factions, flags, and minifigs.  Printed and not stickers...

I think new minifigures would be pretty much inevitable for those sorts of sets as long as they're actually minifigure scale. Adult-targeted exclusives might sometimes have a limited budget for new molds, but new printed elements tend to quite common in minifig-scale exclusives these days (even ones that include sticker sheets as well). I think printed flags/banners would be pretty likely as well, unless the set in question has a whole lot of OTHER new printed elements eating up its budget.

As for new factions? That's a little more uncertain, since there are any number of "old-school" factions that the designers might prefer to focus on for nostalgia reasons, much like they did with the Black Falcons in the Medieval Blacksmith set.

But I do think that compared to the CMFs, larger adult-targeted exclusives would have more incentive to "flesh out" whatever factions they happen to focus on by portraying multiple figures and/or accessories tied to that faction, especially reusing the same printed torsos, shields, flags, etc. several times within the same set (or multiple sets) offers a better return on investment than keeping faction-specific prints or recolors limited to one figure each for novelty's sake.

[gedren_y]

5 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

They're sometimes also just Easter eggs or shout-outs to unrelated stuff that a particular set's graphic designer happens to be interested in, like the Bionicle mask as a constellation on the star chart sticker in set 76389. Regardless of the intent, I don't see any reason to think a graphic design choice in the Harry Potter theme would be meant as a "hint" about unrelated future sets or themes.

Yeah, I think the performance of the Medieval Blacksmith set alone seems to have shown enough demand for more AFOL-targeted medieval sets in the future. Even if LEGO is reluctant to do that sort of thing as an annual series like the Modular Building, Winter Village, or classic car sets, it wouldn't surprise me if they started dabbling in more sporadic releases like they have with the Fairground Collection sets.

In interviews about the Medieval Blacksmith set, the designer Wes Talbott has certainly seemed enthusiastic about and open to the possibility that it could pave the way for future medieval buildings in a similar format! Granted, even actual LEGO designers are not immune to wishful thinking about possibilities that might never actually come to fruition (such as licensing agreements that they don't necessarily have any say in), but I don't think this particular possibility would be very far-fetched at all.

Certainly even if "Castle" as a theme has not really been active lately, castles and medieval inspired buildings more broadly have demonstrated lasting appeal, including "generic" ones like the Medieval Blacksmith and Castle in the Forest that aren't tied to a licensed or in-house IP. LEGO's current strategy with their "Adults Welcome" initiative also shows a lot more openness to pushing that category in new directions (like the Botanical Collection, the Adidas sneaker, LEGO Art mosaics, the "Everyone is Awesome" set, the Nintendo Entertainment System, etc) than what we'd seen under the earlier "Creator Expert" branding.

If LEGO is more willing to take chances on "stand-alone" adult products now (even outside the Ideas theme), that could also potentially apply to historical, fantasy, or sci-fi exclusives, which LEGO previously seemed reluctant to release except as tie-ins with other current or recent themes aimed at a younger audience.

I think new minifigures would be pretty much inevitable for those sorts of sets as long as they're actually minifigure scale. Adult-targeted exclusives might sometimes have a limited budget for new molds, but new printed elements tend to quite common in minifig-scale exclusives these days (even ones that include sticker sheets as well). I think printed flags/banners would be pretty likely as well, unless the set in question has a whole lot of OTHER new printed elements eating up its budget.

As for new factions? That's a little more uncertain, since there are any number of "old-school" factions that the designers might prefer to focus on for nostalgia reasons, much like they did with the Black Falcons in the Medieval Blacksmith set.

But I do think that compared to the CMFs, larger adult-targeted exclusives would have more incentive to "flesh out" whatever factions they happen to focus on by portraying multiple figures and/or accessories tied to that faction, especially reusing the same printed torsos, shields, flags, etc. several times within the same set (or multiple sets) offers a better return on investment than keeping faction-specific prints or recolors limited to one figure each for novelty's sake.

As I had mentioned before, there is the potential for a new red and white dragon faction utilizing the flag design created for the Ideas set Ship in a Bottle. So many of the needed parts for such a line are currently in production. Spreading the warehousing needs for the parts across other existing sets would go at least partway to getting an Ideas submission past the review stage.

Some of the issue seems to be that these stand-alone nostalgia sets consistently land in the upper price range bracket, with only a small percentage of the parts being what Castle AFOLs are actually interested in. B&P cannot keep up with the demand for the parts, so the costs become somewhat prohibitive. We need to convince Lego that actual set sales would increase if the parts that are truly in demand came in more cost effective sets. Buyers would likely be more inclined to spend a greater amount on Lego over time if their interests were being met by smaller sets, than would be spent on the large sets being currently offered.

[TeufelHund]

10 hours ago, DaleDVM said:

 Perhaps TLG will get the hint and notice the true hunger there is for Castle sets.  8 years of pure hunger..

Instantly selling out of adult-focused sets that likely have a relatively small print run does not necessarily mean there's a hunger among kids for a whole new mass-produced castle line sadly.

Certainly my kids don't have a huge appetite for castle/pirate/classic space focused sets - they prefer Ninjago, Star Wars, Superheroes, Minecraft, Monkie Kid etc

[INTENSS]

1 hour ago, TeufelHund said:

Instantly selling out of adult-focused sets that likely have a relatively small print run does not necessarily mean there's a hunger among kids for a whole new mass-produced castle line sadly.

Certainly my kids don't have a huge appetite for castle/pirate/classic space focused sets - they prefer Ninjago, Star Wars, Superheroes, Minecraft, Monkie Kid etc

I’ve just about bailed on hope of a line of Castle as we knew it - targeted at a younger audience.  So my thoughts are, forget the kids, and come out with some higher end annual medieval set targeted at adults.  There isn’t a hunger from kids for high end old trucks, detailed plants/trees, old tv shows, old instruments, and historical buildings but Lego pumps them out one after another.  Adults will buy them - and their numbers are growing.

 

[MAB]

9 hours ago, INTENSS said:

I’ve just about bailed on hope of a line of Castle as we knew it - targeted at a younger audience.  So my thoughts are, forget the kids, and come out with some higher end annual medieval set targeted at adults.  

 

If they did that, I'd hope they'd broaden their horizons and do (worldwide) historical rather than just medieval. A Roman villa, a Viking homestead, a Tudor house, and so on.

[INTENSS]

5 hours ago, MAB said:

If they did that, I'd hope they'd broaden their horizons and do (worldwide) historical rather than just medieval. A Roman villa, a Viking homestead, a Tudor house, and so on.

Agreed.  They did the coliseum but I think they missed a bit with it - hopefully that doesn’t discourage them from doing other historical architecture sets.  I don’t know how it has sold, but it’s never been on back order/sold out online and there doesn’t seem to be a lot of love from the community.  Personally, it was too pricey and repetitive for me to purchase.  

[TeufelHund]

11 hours ago, INTENSS said:

Personally, it was too pricey and repetitive for me to purchase.  

I'm a Roman history nut but that pretty much sums up my feelings about this set (+ where do I put it?).

Now a minifig-based arena set with gladiators, an emperor, wild beasts etc would be great (I have the Playmobil arena and that's fantastic).

[Merlo]

19 hours ago, MAB said:

If they did that, I'd hope they'd broaden their horizons and do (worldwide) historical rather than just medieval. A Roman villa, a Viking homestead, a Tudor house, and so on. 

I'd buy half the stuff on Guilds of Historica if Lego was into that.

 

2 hours ago, TeufelHund said:

I'm a Roman history nut but that pretty much sums up my feelings about this set (+ where do I put it?).

Now a minifig-based arena set with gladiators, an emperor, wild beasts etc would be great (I have the Playmobil arena and that's fantastic). 

Agree with y'all. I don't even care for Roman history and I think the set you described would be amazing.

[TeufelHund]

So Lego have decided to reopen orders for the Round 1 Bricklink sets *except* for Castle in the Forest which has apparently already sold 10,000 copies despite an initial limit of 5,000? Weird plus why leave money on the table if demand is there?

Edited July 7, 2021 by TeufelHund

[The_Creator]

7 minutes ago, TeufelHund said:

So Lego have decided to reopen orders for the Round 1 Bricklink sets *except* for Castle in the Forest which has apparently already sold 10,000 copies despite an initial limit of 5,000? Weird plus why leave money on the table if demand is there?

Probably due to the additional production time, the second round of 5,000 sets is already going out six months later than the first round. 

Hopefully the fact the set sold out worldwide in like 35 minutes, and actually sold 10,000 units, and 75% were to single unit purchases, should show the demand there is for castle sets.

Fingers crossed for a 2023 castle theme, and more castle sets under the Ideas banner. Which, let's be honest Castle in the Forest should have been an Ideas set with proper printing, new minifigures, and a production run able to cover all demand.

Edited July 7, 2021 by The_Creator

[RichardGoring]

I know we'll never get them, but it would be interesting to see the comparable sales figures for the Creator 3 in 1 castle set.

And, if they ever do another one of these, with all of the castles that are in the current Ideas review (and bound to be rejected), I wonder if all five would also sell out.

 

I also find it curious that part of their rationale for limiting the sets is because people value the exclusivity. Yes, some people do. But I suspect most just want a really nice castle set and it really doesn't matter how many others there are. No one complains that there are too many modulars produced, for example, and there's likely a large overlap in the people who get them and want a castle set.

[INTENSS]

44 minutes ago, RichardGoring said:

I know we'll never get them, but it would be interesting to see the comparable sales figures for the Creator 3 in 1 castle set.

And, if they ever do another one of these, with all of the castles that are in the current Ideas review (and bound to be rejected), I wonder if all five would also sell out.

 

I also find it curious that part of their rationale for limiting the sets is because people value the exclusivity. Yes, some people do. But I suspect most just want a really nice castle set and it really doesn't matter how many others there are. No one complains that there are too many modulars produced, for example, and there's likely a large overlap in the people who get them and want a castle set.

I’d guess it has something to do with the timeframe this program is now extending into.  With these changes, they’ll be shipping sets through next Summer.  If they added another 5000 sets, they’d probably be rolling out sets until close to 2023.  At some point they need to end and gear up for the next BL Designer Program.  Mothership Lego is probably wanting them to move things along as well so they can move on to “the next thing.”  They’re also using Lego resources (customer service, parts, logistics, etc) during all of this and these resources will need to be freed up sooner rather than later.

My hope is all of this drives more discussion at Lego about the incredible demand there is for Castle/medieval products.

I’d also love to know what production numbers look like for typical sets as well as higher end/adult focused sets.  Does anyone have a clue?

[RichardGoring]

1 minute ago, INTENSS said:

I’d guess it has something to do with the timeframe this program is now extending into.  With these changes, they’ll be shipping sets through next Summer.  If they added another 5000 sets, they’d probably be rolling out sets until close to 2023.  At some point they need to end and gear up for the next BL Designer Program.  Mothership Lego is probably wanting them to move things along as well so they can move on to “the next thing.”  They’re also using Lego resources (customer service, parts, logistics, etc) during all of this and these resources will need to be freed up sooner rather than later.

My hope is all of this drives more discussion at Lego about the incredible demand there is for Castle/medieval products.

Totally get the logistics argument. It's the scarcity value one that puzzles me.

But yes, hopefully this sends a signal that this is an approach LEGO can take for even more sets/styles/approaches like this. Things that are cool and we likely wouldn't get otherwise. They can make a lot of money without the hassle of retail distribution and partner costs.

[MAB]

On 7/8/2021 at 1:12 AM, RichardGoring said:

I also find it curious that part of their rationale for limiting the sets is because people value the exclusivity. Yes, some people do. But I suspect most just want a really nice castle set and it really doesn't matter how many others there are. No one complains that there are too many modulars produced, for example, and there's likely a large overlap in the people who get them and want a castle set.

No doubt there is also an issue over LEGO being seen to have made a mistake. If a BDP set sold 50k copies then what does that say about the accuracy of LEGO's predictions / business case during IDEAS reviews. They cannot have a rejected set selling in not just huge numbers, but in publicly known huge numbers. LEGO are typically very secretive about numbers of sets sold, so capping numbers quite low where they are known publicly makes sense.

[BrickJagger]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

No doubt there is also an issue over LEGO being seen to have made a mistake. If a BDP set sold 50k copies then what does that say about the accuracy of LEGO's predictions / business case during IDEAS reviews. They cannot have a rejected set selling in not just huge numbers, but in publicly known huge numbers. LEGO are typically very secretive about numbers of sets sold, so capping numbers quite low where they are known publicly makes sense.

The implication that they're turning down millions of dollars being practically shoved into their hands just to avoid admitting they were wrong is kind of hilarious. If this wasn't enough to get the message across, I don't know what would be.

[RichardGoring]

4 hours ago, MAB said:

No doubt there is also an issue over LEGO being seen to have made a mistake. If a BDP set sold 50k copies then what does that say about the accuracy of LEGO's predictions / business case during IDEAS reviews. They cannot have a rejected set selling in not just huge numbers, but in publicly known huge numbers. LEGO are typically very secretive about numbers of sets sold, so capping numbers quite low where they are known publicly makes sense.

 

2 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

The implication that they're turning down millions of dollars being practically shoved into their hands just to avoid admitting they were wrong is kind of hilarious. If this wasn't enough to get the message across, I don't know what would be.

While the set numbers may have been much higher than the limit, we don't really know how they compare with standard sets.

Critically, even if they have potentially left millions of dollars of revenue on the table, the key metric for them is maximizing profit. And these sets likely aren't anywhere near the top of the profitability list (per set). And it sounds like it's a pretty manual process for sorting and packing. So to produce more for this program they're using up resources on less profitable activities.

What I really hope is that they see this as genuine demand for these kinds of sets and they do a full-on Ideas project or Creator Expert one.

[MAB]

11 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

The implication that they're turning down millions of dollars being practically shoved into their hands just to avoid admitting they were wrong is kind of hilarious. If this wasn't enough to get the message across, I don't know what would be.

Yes, maybe a few million dollars in sales but not profit. To have to set up picking and packing machines to do further small runs for BL sets at the expense of their own sets. 

 

8 hours ago, RichardGoring said:

 

While the set numbers may have been much higher than the limit, we don't really know how they compare with standard sets.

Critically, even if they have potentially left millions of dollars of revenue on the table, the key metric for them is maximizing profit. And these sets likely aren't anywhere near the top of the profitability list (per set). And it sounds like it's a pretty manual process for sorting and packing. So to produce more for this program they're using up resources on less profitable activities.

What I really hope is that they see this as genuine demand for these kinds of sets and they do a full-on Ideas project or Creator Expert one.

Indeed business is about maximising profit not sales.

I would also hope that they see the demand and make their own sets. Ones that can be sold more widely (our benefit) that are designed by their employees (their benefit). They may already have plans for a followup set to the blacksmith or creator set. 

[GeoBrick]

3 hours ago, MAB said:

I would also hope that they see the demand and make their own sets. Ones that can be sold more widely (our benefit) that are designed by their employees (their benefit). They may already have plans for a followup set to the blacksmith or creator set. 

That would be grand. At least, if said sets would have at least the complexity of the Medieval Blacksmith.