Future Castle Sets?

[LegoEomer]

Because Castle wasn't selling well. You could've said the exact same thing when KK2 came out.

At least KK2 wasn't sci-fi.

Edited November 16, 2015 by LegoEomer

[x105Black]

Since Lotr didn't sell well at all, why would that one set?

It may not sell as well as LEGO might want, which is why they probably won't do it, but there are fans aching for those characters that were never released. If they did make those characters available, there would be an audience.

[Lyichir]

At least KK2 wasn't sci-fi.

The funny thing is, it kind of WAS, at least in the earliest concepts. It was envisioned as a sort of "future fantasy" akin to He-Man or Thundercats. The mechanical-looking armor of the action figure sets even looked like a sort of power armor, and the transforming function of the prototype castle was much more complex than the final version, where only a few panels got turned around.

To be honest, I sometimes think the theme might have been better received if it had opted more for the science fantasy route, instead of trying to "have it both ways" and posing as a traditional medieval fantasy theme when there was already so much setting it apart from that genre.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Lyichir

[x105Black]

The funny thing is, it kind of WAS, at least in the earliest concepts. It was envisioned as a sort of "future fantasy" akin to He-Man or Thundercats. The mechanical-looking armor of the action figure sets even looked like a sort of power armor, and the transforming function of the prototype castle was much more complex than the final version, where only a few panels got turned around.

To be honest, I sometimes think the theme might have been better received if it had opted more for the science fantasy route, instead of trying to "have it both ways" and posing as a traditional medieval fantasy theme when there was already so much setting it apart from that genre.

It probably would have been even better received if it went the other way and was a full-on medieval theme.

[Murrig Icehammer]

The funny thing is, it kind of WAS, at least in the earliest concepts. It was envisioned as a sort of "future fantasy" akin to He-Man or Thundercats. The mechanical-looking armor of the action figure sets even looked like a sort of power armor, and the transforming function of the prototype castle was much more complex than the final version, where only a few panels got turned around.

To be honest, I sometimes think the theme might have been better received if it had opted more for the science fantasy route, instead of trying to "have it both ways" and posing as a traditional medieval fantasy theme when there was already so much setting it apart from that genre.

Without starting a debate on word definitions, but isn't Lego Star Wars already some kind of science fantasy?

What bothers me the most about NK is the silly tone of it.

Don't get me wrong, as a kid i was a huge fan of the masters of the universe, especially the original version where He-Man was a barbarian who was chosen to be the defender of grayskull. (man, that was so much cooler than some annoying sissy prince mutating into He-Man at will.)

EDIT:

Wow this Knights Kingdom artwork looks really nice.

I just don't get that Lego now goes this all-silly route. That really annoys me...

Edited November 16, 2015 by Murrig Icehammer

[Murrig Icehammer]

I'm sorry to post twice in a row, but there's one thing that came to my mind when i saw http://www.mikerayhawk.com/knights.htm artwork.

Could it be that the basic shape of the Lego Minifigure is too restrictive when it comes to certain themes?

What i mean is that maybe even a theme like Knights Kingdom could have been very popular any much better looking, if the Lego minifigure was more organic looking, instead of so blocky?

(i hope i'm not too heretical right now...)

[Aanchir]

I'm sorry to post twice in a row, but there's one thing that came to my mind when i saw http://www.mikerayhawk.com/knights.htm artwork.

Could it be that the basic shape of the Lego Minifigure is too restrictive when it comes to certain themes?

What i mean is that maybe even a theme like Knights Kingdom could have been very popular any much better looking, if the Lego minifigure was more organic looking, instead of so blocky?

(i hope i'm not too heretical right now...)

It's honestly a good question. I agree, there are some things that more organic-looking figures (like, say, the mini-dolls) work better for than traditional minifigures. Elves, for instance, is well-suited to the more lifelike mini-dolls, which do a great job reflecting the art direction of the box art and TV special, plus allow for details like character-specific dresses, boots and sandals that would be tougher to replicate on the legs of a minifigure (minifigure toes are short and don't allow printing on the top, and shaped dresses on minifigures have the unfortunate side effect of preventing the figure from sitting down).

To this day I kind of wonder what the Exo-Force theme might have been like if it had access to a more lifelike figure like the mini-doll. The figures were already inconsistent with other minifigures in terms of facial features, but yet they weren't totally consistent with the theme's anime-inspired art direction, either. Instead, they occupied this weird space somewhere in between. And being mech pilots, they didn't entirely even need the extra articulation that the traditional minifigure affords. Mike Yoder's mini-doll customs show just how cool mini-doll mech pilots can look!

At the same time, when it comes to non-licensed themes, the character designs can be created to suit the assets and limitations of the figure the sets are going to use. The character designers for themes like Ninjago or Nexo Knights manage to do a good job working with the constraints of the minifigure rather than against them. The characters tend to be depicted as minifigures across all sets and media, so they can be designed according to those specific constraints. With a theme like Knights Kingdom or Exo-Force that is going to have multiple types of figure or a different design language between sets and media, the character designers have a somewhat tougher job, because the design constraints will vary depending on how how the character is being presented.

[x105Black]

I'm sorry to post twice in a row, but there's one thing that came to my mind when i saw http://www.mikerayhawk.com/knights.htm artwork.

Could it be that the basic shape of the Lego Minifigure is too restrictive when it comes to certain themes?

What i mean is that maybe even a theme like Knights Kingdom could have been very popular any much better looking, if the Lego minifigure was more organic looking, instead of so blocky?

(i hope i'm not too heretical right now...)

You are.

I disagree, and feel that the LEGO minifigure is a constant that should not be strayed from. Perhaps adding articulated short legs (and articulating the long legs with knees when used) would be better, but overall I'd say they fit well throughout the LEGO universe and are preferred to the garish minidolls.

[Ql97]

Without starting a debate on word definitions, but isn't Lego Star Wars already some kind of science fantasy?

What bothers me the most about NK is the silly tone of it.

Don't get me wrong, as a kid i was a huge fan of the masters of the universe, especially the original version where He-Man was a barbarian who was chosen to be the defender of grayskull. (man, that was so much cooler than some annoying sissy prince mutating into He-Man at will.)

EDIT:

Wow this Knights Kingdom artwork looks really nice.

I just don't get that Lego now goes this all-silly route. That really annoys me...

Well, it's not like you can sort everything into three neat piles labeled 'Fantasy,' 'Sci-Fi,' and 'Science Fantasy.' There is a broad spectrum, as with everything. There is "Pure Fantasy," which is basically a fairy tale, like LotR. There's also "Hard Fantasy," sharply defined magic with a systematic, almost science like operation. (like Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere) Then it goes through a whole range of blends of science and magic, until you reach mostly Sci-Fi, like Star Wars. There's no clear definitions.

I agree, the most annoying thin about the theme is the childish tone. Not a bit of seriousness in sight.

[LegoEomer]

I can't believe enough people like some lame science-fiction-futuristic-medieval theme for Lego to create it. What Lego should have done was give Kingdoms or Castle (2013) more sets, a TV show, an app, and a little more work in creating. I really wished that Kingdoms or Castle (2013) had more sets, a TV show, and an app. Is it me or the world is running out of real medieval Lego fans?

Edited January 19, 2017 by LegoEomer

[blackie]

Since Lotr didn't sell well at all, why would that one set?

Just of interest: are there any official numbers out? Any rumors? I searched once but didn't find anything. I read multiple times now that castle and LOTR didn't sell that well, but is there any kind of proof?

Edited November 17, 2015 by blackie

[x105Black]

Well, it's not like you can sort everything into three neat piles labeled 'Fantasy,' 'Sci-Fi,' and 'Science Fantasy.' There is a broad spectrum, as with everything. There is "Pure Fantasy," which is basically a fairy tale, like LotR. There's also "Hard Fantasy," sharply defined magic with a systematic, almost science like operation. (like Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere) Then it goes through a whole range of blends of science and magic, until you reach mostly Sci-Fi, like Star Wars. There's no clear definitions.

I agree, the most annoying thin about the theme is the childish tone. Not a bit of seriousness in sight.

Star Wars is more of a Science Fantasy story, with wizard knights. It actually falls in the Space Opera category, but that's being pedantic. Star Trek is more straight Science Fiction.

And yes, Nexo Knights is too childish and lacking seriousness in tone. Which is funny, because they claim to be targeting older kids than they were with Castle.

[BrickJagger]

Lego almost never officially announces the fact that a theme didn't sell well. Why do that when they could talk about how successful City and Ninjago are?

Lotr and the Hobbit sets were clogging up store shelves everywhere, and even the fans of the theme itself said that the second wave was poorly done.

In conclusion it wasn't a hot seller, so Lego decided to end the theme. It happens all the time.

[x105Black]

That's a lot of speculation. There are a lot of City and Ninjago sets all over the shelves at the stores I frequent. I've heard from people who don't like those themes, or think there are flaws. So should I conclude that those aren't hot sellers?

Either way, I think Lord of the Rings / Hobbit is a worthwhile theme to explore as there are fans out there who do actually crave more. There's a thread in this very sub-forum full of people clamoring for that very thing. But I do think it may be done since there haven't been new sets for a while and there are no new movies coming out (as far as we know).

Castle should really be explored again, from the point of view of the people who love it. Find out what they love and why, and do that (instead of the opposite, which is Nexo Knights).

[thetang22]

Chima and Ninjago make up the bulk of the clearance rack at my local stores. LoTR/Hobbit saw their fair share of clearance rack attendance too, but not nearly as much as Chima/Ninjago.

[blackie]

I am also not sure if you can judge by the stuff lying in the shelves. However, here in Germany I actually saw almost no LOTR/Hobbit sets in the local stores at all. I could order them from amazon / Lego / whatever some stores but locally ... almost nothing. I always thought that these sets were some kind of exclusive or rare, just from the start. Third party stores had higher prices as well.

[LegoEomer]

Why would Lego want to lose customers like that? Nexo Knights is even worse that Knights Kingdom II. I mean, at least Knights Kingdom II wasn't futuristic. Or why would Lego put that under the Castle theme? It would have been good if Lego released an actual medieval theme along with this lame Nexo Knights theme. What Lego should've done was give Castle (2013) a chess set at the least. I recently bought Helm's Deep and King's Castle off of eBay because I don't think Nexo Knights will get discontinued any time soon. Also, how is Nexo Knights even a Castle theme? It's futuristic, not medieval.

Edited November 17, 2015 by LegoEomer

[Aanchir]

Why would Lego want to lose customers like that? Nexo Knights is even worse that Knights Kingdom II. I mean, at least Knights Kingdom II wasn't futuristic. Or why would Lego put that under the Castle theme? It would have been good if Lego released an actual medieval theme along with this lame Nexo Knights theme. What Lego should've done was give Castle (2013) a chess set at the least. I recently bought Helm's Deep and King's Castle off of eBay because I don't think Nexo Knights will get discontinued any time soon. Also, how is Nexo Knights even a Castle theme? It's futuristic, not medieval.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that "futuristic=bad". That's a really hard-line position to take, considering that LEGO Space has been around as long as LEGO Castle. I can understand you being mad that there's not a "traditional" Castle theme currently, but that doesn't justify throwing those kinds of insults at the Nexo Knights theme, which is a rather imaginative theme in its own right, and one that seems like it could offer a lot of building, play, and storytelling value.

Whether Nexo Knights is or isn't a Castle theme will vary depending on who you ask, because there isn't and never has been a strict, 100% agreed upon definition for "LEGO Castle". Really, the only indisputable requirement for a LEGO Castle theme is that it has castles, and Nexo Knights meets that requirement. The LEGO Group doesn't tend to obsess over "themes" and "subthemes" the way we AFOLs do, so there probably isn't any kind of "official" classification — Nexo Knights would simply be treated as its own theme.

What I find kind of ironic is that a lot of people and websites do consider Ninja a Castle theme. Back in the 90s when it came out, I certainly didn't think of it as a Castle theme. I thought of it as its own, separate theme. But even though no previous Castle theme had ever focused on a part of the world other than Europe, a lot of people seem to have decided that Ninja is "castle" enough to qualify. Clearly, just because LEGO Castle has previously always been limited to a particular setting does not mean it must always be limited to that setting. And if there can be a Castle theme in a different place, why not a Castle theme in a different time?

It would be interesting to see if there could be a way for Nexo Knights and more traditional Castle to coexist. I for one am open to that possibility. And really, there's no reason to assume LEGO wouldn't be prepared to consider that possibility. If a current Castle theme were being canned to make room for Nexo Knights it'd be a different story, but as it is, when Nexo Knights was announced, Castle had already been on hiatus for over a year and a half.

[Lyichir]

Why would Lego want to lose customers like that? Nexo Knights is even worse that Knights Kingdom II. I mean, at least Knights Kingdom II wasn't futuristic. Or why would Lego put that under the Castle theme? It would have been good if Lego released an actual medieval theme along with this lame Nexo Knights theme. What Lego should've done was give Castle (2013) a chess set at the least. I recently bought Helm's Deep and King's Castle off of eBay because I don't think Nexo Knights will get discontinued any time soon. Also, how is Nexo Knights even a Castle theme? It's futuristic, not medieval.

We've been over this. It's a castle theme because it has castles, knights, wizards, jesters, and will probably continue to introduce more castle-inspired vehicles, characters, and structure as the theme continues. It's not a historic theme, or a medieval theme, but that doesn't disqualify it from being a castle theme.

Now, Eurobricks doesn't consider it one because its Castle themes are rolled up into "historical" with radically different themes like Western and even Licensed themes like Lord of the Rings. So like so many other borderline cases, it goes into action themes, which is slowly but surely gobbling up all the themes Castle fans don't want. Look at Elves, which is pretty much high fantasy but was shifted to Action themes because it has an actual story (though Knights Kingdom II made an effort at the same), portals from "our world" (though I'm sure a Chronicles of Narnia theme would be accepted here just as easily as Lord of the Rings was), and probably because girls have cooties. I mean, I don't mind having most of the themes I like in one subforum, don't get me wrong. But I can't help but get the impression that if Castle fans keep rejecting any new theme that diverges even slightly from tradition, they're going to be waiting a long time for new sets to discuss.

[LegoEomer]

You seem to be operating under the assumption that "futuristic=bad".

No I don't. Futuristic-medieval just doesn't go together.

[Ql97]

Star Wars is more of a Science Fantasy story, with wizard knights. It actually falls in the Space Opera category, but that's being pedantic. Star Trek is more straight Science Fiction.

I see your point, but it's still on the Sci-fi side of things, from Lego's perspective. Most of the sets are spaceships of some sort.

We've been over this. It's a castle theme because it has castles, knights, wizards, jesters, and will probably continue to introduce more castle-inspired vehicles, characters, and structure as the theme continues. It's not a historic theme, or a medieval theme, but that doesn't disqualify it from being a castle theme.

Now, Eurobricks doesn't consider it one because its Castle themes are rolled up into "historical" with radically different themes like Western and even Licensed themes like Lord of the Rings. So like so many other borderline cases, it goes into action themes, which is slowly but surely gobbling up all the themes Castle fans don't want. Look at Elves, which is pretty much high fantasy but was shifted to Action themes because it has an actual story (though Knights Kingdom II made an effort at the same), portals from "our world" (though I'm sure a Chronicles of Narnia theme would be accepted here just as easily as Lord of the Rings was), and probably because girls have cooties. I mean, I don't mind having most of the themes I like in one subforum, don't get me wrong. But I can't help but get the impression that if Castle fans keep rejecting any new theme that diverges even slightly from tradition, they're going to be waiting a long time for new sets to discuss.

I won't just reject a theme out of hand because it's different. I actually love the premise of Nexo Knights, I just wish it was a little less childish. Then again, who am I kidding? Lego is a children's toy. This thread is partially a place for us to voice our frustrations. Please don't yell at someone just because their own personal definitions differ from yours.

No I don't. Futuristic-medieval just doesn't go together.

That's your opinion, and I respect it. Just please don't insist that it is 100% correct for everyone.

[x105Black]

You seem to be operating under the assumption that "futuristic=bad".

It is, as far as Castle is concerned.

Really, the only indisputable requirement for a LEGO Castle theme is that it has castles, and Nexo Knights meets that requirement.

That's debatable. I see it as a tank that looks like a castle.

[BrickJagger]

It is, as far as Castle is concerned.

Opinions.

That's debatable. I see it as a tank that looks like a castle.

Another opinion.

Look, you've more (waaaaay more) then expressed your opinions on this subject. I guess I'm okay with you being negative here, as that is allowed in this thread, but please stop sounding like a broken record on the NK thread. Rather than rant about a theme you clearly hate, why not talk about something that you actually like?

We could discuss various Castle sets and sub themes. We could discuss Castle theories. We could argue over which Castle faction would win a theoretical war. Plenty of other things to talk about!

Edited November 18, 2015 by BrickJagger

[Ql97]

We could discuss various Castle sets and sub themes. We could discuss Castle theories. We could argue over which Castle faction would win a theoretical war. Plenty of other things to talk about!

Instead of expressing your hatred for NK, you can, for example, say how awesome a theme based on NujuMetru's Dragon Lands would be!!

Edited November 18, 2015 by Ql97

[Artanis I]

Dragon Lands is top notch as far as fan creations go. Even though I think the dragon count is over the top (and they are a bit too similar in build), I would buy out each wave of that.