Future Castle Sets?

[Murrig Icehammer]

Lots of good ideas here, with the fair and harbor. The idea of a civilian theme with alter egos is intriguing, and might be a way to sell the concept of civilian sets to kids.

I myself have often thought about a theme of villages vs outlaws, as a fresh alternative to the perpetual offerings of knight-centered themes, but I keep thinking more and more that it wouldnt be a viable theme. The selling point of a Castle theme are the knights in shining armor and Castles with lots of play features, which is what kids want. I would love to be wrong, but here are the words of a designer of the 2007 „Fantasy“ Castle theme:

the full interview is here, for those who havent come across it: http://www.classic-c...feedback07.html

But in the spirit of keeping the Castle discussion alive and hopeful, I have taken the liberty of quoting an excerpt from my very first post on this forum:

The differences between kids playbility vs. what AFOL want is a big problem imo.

According to your Quote, in their testing:

Throughout all the testing we have done for Castle we have included several Civilian style sets for the kids to review with the rest of our proposals. Unfortunately when it comes to the ranking of products they always come at the bottom of the pile, even when we have tried to spice them up by including some sort of battle or attack scenario to the products, they just never rank very highly. Kids really prefer just to have a big Castle to protect and a load of Battle machines and vehicles.

So even if they think AFOL input is somewhat nice, it's not really a decisive factor to them. It's what kids (5+) want to have!

To be honest i thing that's not only a big problem, but a huge one, since both are almost incompatible.

(a much deeper and more "realistic" approach (AFOL) vs. the most superficial view on medieval life as possible (Kids))

Quoting from the same article:

Why a New Castle line for ’07?

The decision was made to launch a new Castle Range in 2007 for several reasons; Knights Kingdom was coming to the end of its life span, it had seen several successes but also had its limitations. Initially K.K was developed to introduce a range of ConstrAction figures, and was heavily reliant on being quite story driven, with a lot of focus on a specific group of characters. This however caused several restrictions when it came to the development of the Lego System based products, which had to fit under the same communication umbrella. Also the change in the Companies strategy was to go back to our roots, so the System Playtheme products needed to be in focus with a new Castle launch rather than a series of action figures.

We wanted to wipe the slate clean, go back to basics and come up with a range of new Castle Products that would suit and excite our core consumers (boys that like to build, from 5+) and hopefully cater for our shadow consumers of adult fan/Castle enthusiasts at the same time.

Their strategy of "going back to the roots" seems to have been thown out of the window in favour of following the Lego movie theme, which obviously was very easy for little kids to follow.

(The problem i see is that the only big difference between KK and their new strategy is only backed by the "hype" and success of the Lego movie.)

So even there we have a certain dumbing down like at so many other aspects of todays culture, which is really sad to be honest. Complexity is obviously not very popular nowadays, lol.

Of course a Villagers (medival Superheroes ;) ) vs raiders would be interesting but i don't think it would be what kids want. Since that theme is not superficial enough to be "exciting" for todays kids. Additionally it isn't backed by a TV show or a Movie.

So honestly, i wonder how other companies (especially Playmobil) are capable to even exist nowadays by having "normal" themes without any big license or

Maybe Lego could go another route and include RPG fans into their concept by licensing D&D, Pathfinder or even create a fantasy theme for especially for a older audience (in contrast to castle 07) and market it accordingly. (Apparently there's a big market for RPG themed figures, but idk how big)

Surely they would need to create a different visual design for that theme, maybe even come up with different minifigures like they did with Lego Friends, Frozen or Elves. But this time going into the opposite direction and create a gritty and dark styled kind of theme. Surely it would be risky, but i can imagine a big potential behind this.

By doing this they could still have "exciting" sets (and expensive ones too) which could be much more appealing for an older audience and run their 5+ Fantasy/castle/city/kindergarten theme at the same time.

[gedren_y]

A D&D license is never going to happen, since Hasbro owns it and they have Kre-O.

There are some interesting possibilities if TLG is willing to do a full Doctor Who theme. I still remember the original Doctor landing in an Aztec temple. The David Tennant version of the Doctor went to Pompeii, and a few other choice historical locations.

[Lyichir]

Lots of good ideas here, with the fair and harbor. The idea of a civilian theme with alter egos is intriguing, and might be a way to sell the concept of civilian sets to kids.

I myself have often thought about a theme of villages vs outlaws, as a fresh alternative to the perpetual offerings of knight-centered themes, but I keep thinking more and more that it wouldnt be a viable theme. The selling point of a Castle theme are the knights in shining armor and Castles with lots of play features, which is what kids want. I would love to be wrong, but here are the words of a designer of the 2007 „Fantasy“ Castle theme:

the full interview is here, for those who havent come across it: http://www.classic-c...feedback07.html

It's definitely an interesting conundrum, and one that affects multiple themes. Take Ninjago, for instance. In the show, there are many, many scenes where the ninja are in casual clothes or otherwise aren't geared up for battle. But these aspects never really make their way into the sets. Why? Probably because when kids buy Ninjago, they want ninja in full ninja garb, not kids in street clothes who, to someone unfamiliar with the show, could be anybody. The same logic probably explains why, in the Super Heroes theme, we haven't gotten many characters in their "secret identity" (the exceptions being Bruce Wayne, who comes in a set with Batman, and Clark Kent, who came in a DVD and even had his shirt ripped open to show the Superman "S", just in case it wasn't clear that this was in fact a superhero).

In fact, I don't know if it's just kids who are affected by this. There's a lot of demand in the AFOL community for sets like Medieval Market Village and Mill Village Raid... but I wonder if that demand isn't partially due to the relative rarity of sets like that. If the Castle theme had a wave with 5 or 6 sets revolving around merchants and peasants, with only one large castle set to go with them, I can imagine Castle builders would be upset (even if a scenario like that might be more accurate to actual medieval demographics). Those sorts of sets are probably considered marketable largely because, with only a single civilian-focused set per theme, all of the pent-up demand for those sorts of sets is channeled into a single large product, instead of spread out across an entire product line at the expense of the more popular and marketable castles and knights.

[Aanchir]

Quoting from the same article:

Their strategy of "going back to the roots" seems to have been thown out of the window in favour of following the Lego movie theme, which obviously was very easy for little kids to follow.

(The problem i see is that the only big difference between KK and their new strategy is only backed by the "hype" and success of the Lego movie.)

So even there we have a certain dumbing down like at so many other aspects of todays culture, which is really sad to be honest. Complexity is obviously not very popular nowadays, lol.

I don't see how combining ideas in new and creative ways, as The LEGO Movie encouraged, is "dumbing things down". Nor how today's society has a tendency to dumb things down. Obviously, that's something people have been saying about "today's society" for millennia (back in Plato's day there were even concerns that the rise of writing was "dumbing things down" by taking the place of oral tradition and making it so that people no longer had to remember so many things).

In my opinion, we live in a great time for kids' entertainment. There are certainly plenty of dumb cartoons on the air, but also lots of more sophisticated ones like Gravity Falls, My Little Pony Friendship is Magic, and The Legend of Korra. Even merchandise-driven cartoons like LEGO Ninjago: Masters of Spinjitzu tend to have much higher production values and deeper storytelling than a lot of the cheap cartoons that dominated the airwaves back in the 80s. Kids' movies, too, have evolved: films like The LEGO Movie, Big Hero 6, Toy Story 3, Brave, and Wreck-It Ralph are as well-loved by adults and kids alike as they are in part because of their sophisticated themes. Even video games are evolving, with some sandbox games such as Minecraft transforming the concept of the video game into a profoundly creative and social experience, and others like Undertale exploring new ways that player choices can be used to tell emotionally resonant stories.

Even in LEGO, I don't see things being dumbed down. On the contrary, I see exactly the opposite, at just about every level of building (from Classic/Juniors all the way up to Technic and Creator Expert). Sets in general are getting increasingly creative and sophisticated. Just look how much better 70411 Treasure Island from this year looks than 6241 Loot Island from 2009.

And as for complexity not being popular, themes like Ninjago and Legends of Chima are generally VERY complex, whether you're talking more sci-fi sets like 70737 Titan Mech Battle and 70144 Laval's Fire Lion or more fantasy-oriented sets like 70734 Master Wu Dragon and 70123 Lion Legend Beast. Nexo Knights looks like it will be no different — already, of the two sets we've seen, 70316 Jestro's Evil Mobile boasts 658 pieces including a brick-built golem, a fearsome brick-built figurehead, and elaborate brick-built tires. Plus a brick-built robo-horse for the heroes. Even the concept, a giant, jester-themed chariot pulled by an evil lava golem, is much more complex than a run-of-the-mill chariot like 7078 King's Battle Chariot. So what about this set isn't complex?

Naturally, some people have issues with Nexo Knights. Understandable issues. But unless they're not paying any attention to what the theme is actually like, a lack of complexity shouldn't be their chief concern.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Aanchir

[Artanis I]

<broken record>

The construction of the sets might not be dumbed down, but the creative play aspect is. Kids are spoon-fed more and more as to who & what everything is and how the story goes. 30 years ago you got a bunch of minifigs none of which had a name, and VERY few were unique characters (like a princess, king, blacksmith). It was up to the kids to decide what happens. In many cases, there wasn't even a "this is a good guy, that is a bad guy" distinction. Nowadays, every minifig in every theme besides the traditionals (and in many cases not even them) is named and has a specific role & background, every set is clearly spelled out as to where it fits in the story that has been provided. That would be fine if it was just the licenced properties, but all of the in-house stuff has it now too.

[gedren_y]

It's this media driven play concept that has gotten great sales, but sacrifices the basic idea of imaginative play. This seems counter to the longstanding company image that TLG promotes in its publications.

The provided 'Castle' theme doesn't appeal to historical builders, and this community feels under-served. Disappointment abound.

I'll look for parts elsewhere.

[Murrig Icehammer]

@Aanchir

NK is not what i understand in "combining ideas in new and creative ways, as The LEGO Movie encouraged" as you said so nice.

To me it just looks like someone was throwing some random stuff together which is not being very creative (or better said being good at it), every computer or 5 year old can do that.

Of course you CAN combine Fantasy/historical elements and Science fiction with each other, that's not the question. But the point is HOW it is done. And as far as i can see NK is pretty bad at this. (And i am not talking about individual sets, i am talking about the theme design as a whole.)

About todays media being complex, i can't say much about kids cartoon shows or movies which may or may not have a high production standard. I really don't care. I can only speak from my point of view.

But i can say one or two things about todays video games and i think they are not as complex or unlimited as they claim to be.

For example Skyrim, compared to it's predecessor TES games, it makes you believe it's complex, but it isn't.

It's smaller, features less character stats and doesn't offer as much replayability/content (like quests for example) like Morrowind or Oblivion to name just a few things. Sure the may graphic look better and everyone was totally hyped about it, but that's all.

And there's virtually no other (singleplayer) game that offers as much freedom combined with immersion i know of. Sure there are MMORPGs which are huge and offer content for years (especially the one with the two big "w" ), but most of the time other people just ruin immersion. Not to speak that most games are just another way to milk the customers purse.

Of course this is complely subjective, just as your point of view too.

It's this media driven play concept that has gotten great sales, but sacrifices the basic idea of imaginative play. This seems counter to the longstanding company image that TLG promotes in its publications.

The provided 'Castle' theme doesn't appeal to historical builders, and this community feels under-served. Disappointment abound.

I'll look for parts elsewhere.

I think you hit the nail.

[Aanchir]

The construction of the sets might not be dumbed down, but the creative play aspect is. Kids are spoon-fed more and more as to who & what everything is and how the story goes. 30 years ago you got a bunch of minifigs none of which had a name, and VERY few were unique characters (like a princess, king, blacksmith). It was up to the kids to decide what happens. In many cases, there wasn't even a "this is a good guy, that is a bad guy" distinction. Nowadays, every minifig in every theme besides the traditionals (and in many cases not even them) is named and has a specific role & background, every set is clearly spelled out as to where it fits in the story that has been provided. That would be fine if it was just the licenced properties, but all of the in-house stuff has it now too.

I apologize, but I can't take this argument any more seriously than all the moms and dads who stubbornly believe that basic brick buckets are the ONLY sets that encourage creative play and that any other kits stifle it by teaching kids to only build what's in the instructions. If kids or adults want to use these named characters as generic characters, or even mix-and-match them to create new and unique characters, there's nothing stopping them. But giving the characters names and identities gives kids another level on which to relate to them, if they prefer that. It's not "dumb", it's just a different type of play that involves plenty of creativity in its own right. From my experience, things like character names and backstories generally don't stifle creativity, but rather jump-start it.

After all, if nameless characters encourage so much more creativity than named ones, then how come I invariably see so much more fan art, fan fiction, and fan videos (often involving original characters) for themes with elaborately crafted lore like Bionicle or Ninjago than for more open-ended themes like City, Pirates, or Castle? Does the creativity these traditional themes inspire begin and end at the toy box? In my opinion, what really stifles creativity is telling kids that only completely open-ended play is creative and that anything short of that is scripted and unimaginative. From modern-day stories like Wicked and Sherlock all the way back to the days of Greek myths, people have been telling stories using characters that other people before them created, and those stories are not "unimaginative" or "uncreative" or "dumbed down" just because they are built on a pre-existing foundation.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Aanchir

[thetang22]

Aanchir, I believe the argument comes from the idea of children being hit with Sensory overload these days to the point that if a new toy doesn't have lasers and gadgets on it, they can't even process the idea of it being "fun" because it seems so simple. That idea then translates over to something like Nexo Knights....where instead of simply giving them a well-designed traditional Castle theme with some interesting concepts, they need to "Sensory-Overload" it, so that kids these days can process it, because the kids have a hard time using simpler toys once they start playing with video games, iPads, etc....

"Dumb'ing it down" may or may not be a great way of labeling it....but there is something going on here. Dumbing it down could be applicable because the kids have to be given all these extra "crutches" for it to seem fun (Lasers and gadgets, etc...). Yes, this is similar to older generations complaining about the younger generations' toys compared to what they had when they were younger. However, there has been quite a bit of valid research done on the "Sensory Overload" in young kids today, and themes like Nexo Knights seem to be an extension of that.

[The_Cook]

Somewhere in an alternate universe the leak that came forth from the Lego company was that the new Big Bang range would be a sci-fi inspired, its character would look like space marines from Alien or Warhammer40k (or any of the other space soldier tropes) but would be called Knights to make them sound cool. The sci-fi AFOLs were happy to get some cool new bricks in cool new colours; the historic AFOLs continued complaining about the early demise of LOTR and how their personal favourite minor character never got represented in minifig form; and the forums lived happily ever after.

Ah; but the seeds of mis-information have led us to this dispair and angst from which we can never return.

[Captain Dee]

I'd better roll up my pants, because it's getting deep again. Deep and smelly.

If I dig deep enough maybe I can find that future set discussion...

I can agree with just about all these basic points in some way. I do think kids are still creative, and I also think it's possible to stifle it, but I don't see that happening too much in the Lego world. TV and other passive forms of "entertainment" (if you can call it that) stifle creativity, but I question whether Lego shows really have a negative impact, even though I see the shows as a waste of the company's resources (but that's just my heavily biased opinion, and no, I'm not interested in hearing any stats - lets move on). I don't think any sane individual would question the existence of sensory overload; it's too heavily studied and documented in its various forms but again, I'm not sure how it applies to Lego. Other static battery-powered toys are prime examples: so many times I've watched young kids push the same button over and over again, just to hear that absurd noise, and then they're done - it's boring, try another one. But that's not really a Lego problem either. So, to recap - I think Lego is still a creative medium, even though I put action themes in general in the category of "sleeping aids" and often wonder why they don't attract flies and vultures.

I'm not sure that one approach to Castle is any more or less creative than another, even though I obviously can't stand a particular approach. But I suspect something more akin to the classics will resurface eventually.

Phred, that new title you gave me just might fit this conversation.

[Ql97]

If I dig deep enough maybe I can find that future set discussion...

*looks around*

Nope. Don't see any of that around here. Of course, it's near impossible to see anything in this constant barrage of personal opinions, mantras, and assertions that everyone is 100% certain that their way of looking at things is the only valid one.

[thetang22]

I don't mean this as a personal attack to anyone, so please don't anyone take it this way....but I have never seen ANY hobby forum I've ever frequented be even 1/2 as anal about people staying on topic as Eurobricks. I'm talking about hobby sites such as miniature painting, board gaming, video games, guitars, wood working.... A wide range, and yet this is the only site that is a stickler about it. Other sites typically let off-topic stuff run it's course, unless they get mean, but here....it's treated like some big offense.

Eurobricks is a great site overall...but man, the general attitude towards discussions veering off-topic is a bit over the top.

[Ql97]

I don't mean this as a personal attack to anyone, so please don't anyone take it this way....but I have never seen ANY hobby forum I've ever frequented be even 1/2 as anal about people staying on topic as Eurobricks. I'm talking about hobby sites such as miniature painting, board gaming, video games, guitars, wood working.... A wide range, and yet this is the only site that is a stickler about it. Other sites typically let off-topic stuff run it's course, unless they get mean, but here....it's treated like some big offense.

Eurobricks is a great site overall...but man, the general attitude towards discussions veering off-topic is a bit over the top.

My problem isn't with how off-topic the discussion is. Trust me, I'm a veritable king of off-topic on other forums. My problem is that this thread is descending into a giant shouting match about who's opinion is right or wrong. (As if there is such a thing as a correct opinion) This current conversation is a sad mix of infuriating and depressing. Here, we were trying to do some constructive daydreaming, and people had to start throwing around balgerdash about how Lego sucks, and their lives are miserable as a result. If you are going to post a rant, please do so in the General Discussion, and don't bring us down over here.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Ql97

[Captain Dee]

For the record, my own snarky comments were posted in good humor. I don't expect people to value my opinion, and don't care either.

I think it's unreasonable to expect everyone to be strictly on-topic 100% of the time. Complex issues can easily wander a little and still pertain to the matter at hand. If someone posts something on-topic that includes a statement that goes slightly off-topic (common occurrence, right?) but pertains to their basic ideas, other people probably should be allowed to respond within reason. I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

[BrickJagger]

If I dig deep enough maybe I can find that future set discussion...

I'll just leave this here.

[Captain Pirate Man]

My 2 cents...

Lego is obviously more successful than ever, so what they are doing is indeed working. Are the new sets they are making the kinds of things I prefer? Mostly no (but some exceptions do exists, like the GB firehouse). But what I am doing and I recommend others also do that are "unhappy" with the new stuff, is go back and get the older stuff you want. That's what's beautiful about the today's age of lego, is that the classic stuff is STILL available to purchase. Yes it might be a little more expensive than the original price, but in most cases, it's not completely unreasonable, espcually for an adult collecter.

The only problem with collecting classic sets is that you will eventually run out of space to display them or run out of sets you want to purchase. Like in my case, I am putting together a world circa 1600, that way I can use both pirate and castle type sets. (i know many pursuits frown on combining themes, but hey it's my world

Edited November 30, 2015 by Captain Pirate Man

[Actor Builder]

Three cheers for Pirate Captain Man!

I concur whole-heartedly with all your sentiments!

I also conquer whole-heartedly with those sentiments, but that's neither here nor there.

[BrickJagger]

*Snippity-Snip*

So in other words, it's an addiction.

To the ones who are reading this, keep in mind that there are 280 Castle sets (Before NK, which has 32 so far) and in all likelihood you don't own all of them, and there are several that you would like to buy. Go buy those.

Congrats on reaching Citizen!

[Captain Pirate Man]

So in other words, it's an addiction.

To the ones who are reading this, keep in mind that there are 280 Castle sets (Before NK, which has 32 so far) and in all likelihood you don't own all of them, and there are several that you would like to buy. Go buy those.

Congrats on reaching Citizen!

Thanks man!!! Does this mean I can create polls? Or is that 500 posts? I've been dying to create 2 polls, one for the best pirate ship and the other for best castle. Put every ship/castle ever made, and have everybody pick their top 5. I think it would be fair, and finally allow Eurobricks to have their definitive best castles/pirate ships.

Sorry off topic

[BrickJagger]

Thanks man!!! Does this mean I can create polls? Or is that 500 posts? I've been dying to create 2 polls, one for the best pirate ship and the other for best castle. Put every ship/castle ever made, and have everybody pick their top 5. I think it would be fair, and finally allow Eurobricks to have their definitive best castles/pirate ships.

Sorry off topic

Unfortunately poll-making is unlocked at 500 posts.

If you start posting right now, in a couple of months you will be able to make that poll. However, if you are dying the poll made, you could always ask someone with 500+ posts to do if for you.

Back on topic, I can't wait to see what that new Satyr looks like. In a way Lego has created FE2 through CMFs: Evil Dwarves, Goblins, Elves, and Satyrs.

I can wait for FE2 as long as Lego keeps churning out those great Lava Monsters, though.

[x105Black]

The lava monsters are actually really cool. I wish they had some cool new knights to go with them.

And sure, there may be some old Castle sets I don't have. Some are great, and I would love them, but they are expensive. Others are really nice, but out of date. There are new pieces, new techniques, and new technology that could be applied to make even better modern versions of those sets. That's what I'd love to see.

Bring the old Castle up to date.

[Actor Builder]

There are new pieces, new techniques, and new technology that could be applied to make even better modern versions of those sets. That's what I'd love to see.

Bring the old Castle up to date.

Then do it! Don't sit around waiting for LEGO to do it for you. You've already calculated some five or more years before a new "classic" castle theme. Rebuild your favorite childhood sets with new techniques and pieces. I'm sure we'd all love to see them.

[x105Black]

Then do it! Don't sit around waiting for LEGO to do it for you. You've already calculated some five or more years before a new "classic" castle theme. Rebuild your favorite childhood sets with new techniques and pieces. I'm sure we'd all love to see them.

Modern printing techniques for torsos, arms, and legs. Modern technology like dual molded arms and legs. Updated sets means updated minifigures, something I can't do via BrickLink. This is a facet that people tend to forget when they espouse the "build it for yourself" mentality.

[Artanis I]

Modern printing techniques for torsos, arms, and legs. Modern technology like dual molded arms and legs. Updated sets means updated minifigures, something I can't do via BrickLink. This is a facet that people tend to forget when they espouse the "build it for yourself" mentality.

Exactly. (Which is why someone like me buys a new line of Castle despite having stacks of the stuff from over the decades.) You can't easily DIY a new line of minifigs, crests and accessories (and have them look any good).