Future Castle Sets?

[MAB]

1 hour ago, Gorilla94 said:

Well... a Balrog or Fellbeast without knowlege of the movies is still a cool demon/dragonlike monster...while boring gray wall is a boring gray wall. Gandalf for example is a nice Wizard minifig no matter if you see him as the Gandalf the Grey or a generic Wizard. Size does not matter in that scenario. If there have to be big sets, there would have been opportunities to do sets that feel like "ok, everything about this set is at least nice to have and worth the money the set could have been cheaper without it". That's what I mean with that there were bad choice made. The Witchking in his rotk design is just cool. Saurons mouth is well made as a figure but he is supposed to be disgusting. Without fandom love there are less people that would like to have hin than the Witchking. A Thror minifig would still have been a golden dwarfen king. The master of laketown on the other Hand is a strange guy with an even stranger hat and an ugly face. All I say is when planing the sets they should have had that in mind what could still be desirable if these are vieved as generic sets.

I would have loved a (LOTR version) Witch King, but that would be a strange character for people treating the set as generic. It is a helmet that cannot be used without knowing it is LOTR, just like Vader's Helmet is immediately Star Wars. But extending that, Mines of Moria gave us a generic elf, generic dwarf, two generic orcs, a generic man, a generic short man/child, and a bigfig troll. It was also a fantastic castle builders parts pack. Similarly the Uruk-hai army gave us two generic men / medieval soldiers, four generic fantasy bad-guys, a horse and was also a castle parts pack.

Of course, they could have left the Master out of Lake Town, but Lake Town plays quite a big role in the Hobbit, especially DoS. To not have a Lake Town set and to not have the Master in a Lake Town set would be a huge omission. They have to think about the franchise they are making the sets for above whether people buying the sets for generic use can use all the minifigures.

 

[Gorilla94]

On 11/10/2020 at 3:43 PM, MAB said:

I would have loved a (LOTR version) Witch King, but that would be a strange character for people treating the set as generic. It is a helmet that cannot be used without knowing it is LOTR, just like Vader's Helmet is immediately Star Wars. But extending that, Mines of Moria gave us a generic elf, generic dwarf, two generic orcs, a generic man, a generic short man/child, and a bigfig troll. It was also a fantastic castle builders parts pack. Similarly the Uruk-hai army gave us two generic men / medieval soldiers, four generic fantasy bad-guys, a horse and was also a castle parts pack.

Of course, they could have left the Master out of Lake Town, but Lake Town plays quite a big role in the Hobbit, especially DoS. To not have a Lake Town set and to not have the Master in a Lake Town set would be a huge omission. They have to think about the franchise they are making the sets for above whether people buying the sets for generic use can use all the minifigures.

 

Hm... I trink that's a question of personal taste. I'd completely agree with you on the Vader Helmet. There isn't anything comparable to it. Stuff similar to the Witchking and Sauron helmets on the other Hand is used for lots of fantasy bad guys (like the Overlord from the Video games for example, the WoW Lich king or a certain Inquisitor outfit in Sacred 2) or even for the knight from Overwatch. It isn't that random in the fantasy genre like orcs but for sure not that much of a unique thing to fantasy like Vaders Helmet is to scifi - other than Sauron's Mouth's helmet wich is without the eyes indeed very unique... and ugly (like i said, it is perfect in the movie and a perfect representation of the charakter in Lego Form, but it is still ugly unlike the Witchking wich is just cool and because of that much more desirable as a toy).

I agree in some points while I would not call it fantastic. Never said the Mines of Moria is a straight F in school grades. Dwarf, Elf and the Troll are definitely selling points. The clone orcs with terribly ugly faces and unprinted legs not so much. And I think we can certainly say there are more exciting things to get for a child than a kid with a scarf, too (not that I wasn't glad we got Pippin as a figure). 3 really cool figures, 2 "okay" ones and 2 bad ones and some usefull grey parts just do not justify this price. Same for the Uruk/Rohan set. It is certainly not a straight F but big improvements would not have been difficult.

I totally see your point. My opinion is just "if you do a job, do it right". If they did one good one instead of those 2 laketown sets (3 if you include the polybag) and given the master just hair (maybe the shakespears hat like Filch from Harry Potter just in dark orange) and did not waste a mould on the strange hat that isn't even in the most important sceene where Thorin has his speech, it would have been a better choice. This way there would have been a mould left to do at least Orcrist as a mould or release a Thror minifig including a beard compatible with the special crowned hairpiece.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Gorilla94

[MAB]

13 hours ago, Gorilla94 said:

If they did one good one instead of those 2 laketown sets (3 if you include the polybag) and given the master just hair (maybe the shakespears hat like Filch from Harry Potter just in dark orange) and did not waste a mould on the strange hat that isn't even in the most important sceene where Thorin has his speech, it would have been a better choice. This way there would have been a mould left to do at least Orcrist as a mould or release a Thror minifig including a beard compatible with the special crowned hairpiece.

The two Laketown sets were released in different years and were designed to fulfil certain price points: ~300 parts $30 and ~500 parts $50. They cannot just combine them to make one big good one, unless they give up on the price point structure. Like most LEGO sets, all the small LOTR / Hobbit sets could have been made even better by making them bigger. But then they would have all been big sets at high price points.

And yes, they could have made a highly specific piece for Thror's beard instead of the Master's hair/hat but then they have the issue of which set to include him in.

[Seaber]

With recent shows like Vikings and the Last Kingdom, as well as the latest Assassin's Creed game, I'd love a Saxons vs Vikings line. Like Pirates vs Imperials, it's sort of up to you which faction is good and which is bad, but you could also have some peaceful cooperation too. 

 

Lots of lovely new shield prints and crazy hair pieces and a lovely longship with a few Castle classics - carts, forts, battering rams and outposts with some lovely MMV/MVR-like citizen stuff. 

[TeriXeri]

I'd like to see some Castle Interior type set(s) , like the Harry Potter Classroom "books", those look great, instead of using Harry Potter themed things they can have something like a Throne Room, Treasure Room, Dungeon, and Outer wall or something as Castle playsets or expansion sets to a Castle set/wall system. 

Currently not collecting Harry Potter sets myself so €30 is a bit much for 1 of them, but if they end up on discount I might reconsider.

Edited November 17, 2020 by TeriXeri

[zoth33]

13 hours ago, TeriXeri said:

I'd like to see some Castle Interior type set(s) , like the Harry Potter Classroom "books", those look great, instead of using Harry Potter themed things they can have something like a Throne Room, Treasure Room, Dungeon, and Outer wall or something as Castle playsets or expansion sets to a Castle set/wall system. 

Currently not collecting Harry Potter sets myself so €30 is a bit much for 1 of them, but if they end up on discount I might reconsider.

Those are interesting.  They could do an armory, blacksmith, baker, butcher, war room, alchemy room, library, etc.  There is so many small sets like this they could do and it would sell like crazy especially if the figs look good.  If they tied it in to a larger castle like you said would be a neat idea.  

[thetang22]

Yeah, interiors for castle have been an on and off topic here for several years, and I agree - it would be a fresh direction from the same old formula they always did with castle sets.

[gedren_y]

1 hour ago, thetang22 said:

Yeah, interiors for castle have been an on and off topic here for several years, and I agree - it would be a fresh direction from the same old formula they always did with castle sets.

In that vein the great ideal would be numerous modular castle section sets. Gatehouse, towers, wall sections with interior scenes (blacksmith, stables, barracks, etc.), and a true keep with all that implies as the large set. Even better, offer multiple faction options, with enough figs to have both residents and enemies (or, God forbid, allies). Add to that lots of $5 - $20 civilian sets. We can dream, can't we?

[Lion King]

I would like to see some Castle sets that are similar to Hogwarts Castle. When I said that, I am talking about expansion sets. For example, main building would have throne chamber, treasure room, and some big gate leads to count are outside throne chamber. Some additional sets would be connected to taht main building set, such as dungeon, armory room, watchtower, some bedrooms for royal family or housekeepers, kitchen, grant feast hall (with stained glass windows), etc. that would make the castle larger. Additionally, i would love to see some village sets and jousting arena outside the castle.  That would be an entire kingdom you could ask for. Of course, add some trees! Kingdom won’t be kingdom without forest surrounding village and castle. 

 

Adding Viking figs and longship Castle theme would be super cool! Or at least zombie army along with skeletal dragon gonna be wicked! :)

[TeriXeri]

So Creator 3-in-1 has another (90s)Space inspired minifigure in a 2021.

I could certainly think that a 3-in-1 Castle themed set would be possible if nothing else shows up.

Edited November 20, 2020 by TeriXeri

[zoth33]

4 hours ago, TeriXeri said:

So Creator 3-in-1 has another (90s)Space inspired minifigure in a 2021.

I could certainly think that a 3-in-1 Castle themed set would be possible if nothing else shows up.

That could be a possibility. It would be definitely nice to see.  Anything castle would be great at this point.  

[Gorilla94]

On 11/13/2020 at 12:36 PM, MAB said:

The two Laketown sets were released in different years and were designed to fulfil certain price points: ~300 parts $30 and ~500 parts $50. They cannot just combine them to make one big good one, unless they give up on the price point structure. Like most LEGO sets, all the small LOTR / Hobbit sets could have been made even better by making them bigger. But then they would have all been big sets at high price points.

And yes, they could have made a highly specific piece for Thror's beard instead of the Master's hair/hat but then they have the issue of which set to include him in.

That's true. But I don't get why it has to be exactly this amount of sets for these pricepoints and in this case why a 300 parts set for 30€ has to be the the laketown set if it is clear that it won't be very good. I know that there are buisness decisions but in this case it would surely have been better to let someone with love and understanding for the material (both Lego and the licence) make the decisions from scratch instead of telling a designer which impossible Job je has to do with theme and price range and then claim that there is no demand for middle Earth/Castle sets, when few want that stuff. Pretty much nobody from this threat would have skipped Beorns hut and did a dolguldur-ambush-set with him instead... making a headpiece with just one angry expression instead of a usefull hair mould and a standard head with two expressions. Hobbit wave 1 included the spiders from desolation of smaug already. Smaug did not appear until a set for the 3rd movie. It is not like it would not have been possible to take some freedom releasing sceenes or combine them. The movie-3-Laketown set has hardly any relevance for the plot except for the ballista and the sets from wave 2 were still brand new on shelves. You could have easily put it on a roof in the first set, add Bain and there would be nothing missing. Should not cost more than 5€ extra... and to be honest i would not increase the price with the thought in mind, that the set isn't that gorgeous/iconic/impressive and not that desirable figures are included. I know, that this has nothing to do with piece count or production costs, but it is important when it comes to buyers decision.

[MAB]

13 minutes ago, Gorilla94 said:

That's true. But I don't get why it has to be exactly this amount of sets for these pricepoints and in this case why a 300 parts set for 30€ has to be the the laketown set if it is clear that it won't be very good. I know that there are buisness decisions but in this case it would surely have been better to let someone with love and understanding for the material (both Lego and the licence) make the decisions from scratch instead of telling a designer which impossible Job je has to do with theme and price range and then claim that there is no demand for middle Earth/Castle sets, when few want that stuff.

The Laketown sets were decent enough for the size of the sets. Sure they could have been better / bigger at a higher price point, but they were enough to convey the scene. Of course, every LOTR and Hobbit set would have been great if they were all $300 sets, but then the whole series would have been very expensive. If the goodness of a set is based on its size, then the smaller ones will always be seen as not very good. I'd prefer a small (300 piece) Lake-Town than a 300 piece Lonely Mountain or Battle of the Five Armies set. There were also complaints that those two were too small, even though they were the larger price points. Making them even smaller would not have gone down well.

I don't think LEGO ever claimed there was no demand for Middle Earth or Castle sets.

15 minutes ago, Gorilla94 said:

Hobbit wave 1 included the spiders from desolation of smaug already. Smaug did not appear until a set for the 3rd movie. It is not like it would not have been possible to take some freedom releasing sceenes or combine them.

That scene was meant to be in the first movie, but they were split into three instead of two movies. That is why LEGO sold this set as a "trilogy preview set".

18 minutes ago, Gorilla94 said:

The movie-3-Laketown set has hardly any relevance for the plot except for the ballista and the sets from wave 2 were still brand new on shelves. You could have easily put it on a roof in the first set, add Bain and there would be nothing missing. Should not cost more than 5€ extra... and to be honest i would not increase the price with the thought in mind, that the set isn't that gorgeous/iconic/impressive and not that desirable figures are included. I know, that this has nothing to do with piece count or production costs, but it is important when it comes to buyers decision.

The killing of Smaug is a fairly important action scene, which is probably why LEGO decided to have an extension to Lake-Town with the ballista.

[Gorilla94]

On 11/25/2020 at 2:32 PM, MAB said:

The Laketown sets were decent enough for the size of the sets. Sure they could have been better / bigger at a higher price point, but they were enough to convey the scene. Of course, every LOTR and Hobbit set would have been great if they were all $300 sets, but then the whole series would have been very expensive. If the goodness of a set is based on its size, then the smaller ones will always be seen as not very good. I'd prefer a small (300 piece) Lake-Town than a 300 piece Lonely Mountain or Battle of the Five Armies set. There were also complaints that those two were too small, even though they were the larger price points. Making them even smaller would not have gone down well.

I don't think LEGO ever claimed there was no demand for Middle Earth or Castle sets.

That scene was meant to be in the first movie, but they were split into three instead of two movies. That is why LEGO sold this set as a "trilogy preview set".

The killing of Smaug is a fairly important action scene, which is probably why LEGO decided to have an extension to Lake-Town with the ballista.

To be honest, I don´t see it that way at all. I don´t get how my posts made me look like I want just a bunch of UCS-Sets. At a certain point a set is fine (in terms of what it represents as licenced fan merch as well as a generic toy and what is charged for what is offered) and just looses it´s cuteness by getting bigger and bigger. The bag end set nailed this point pretty much with the only downside being the stickers for the maps and the book. Size says pretty much nothing about quality. The small set with Bilbo, Gollum and the Ring is indeed one of the best in my opinion. The question is what is possible with a sceene. A Laketown-set for the third movie could have been done as a extremely small pack just including bard and the ballista or a still very, very small one including Bain, too. That´s cute and nice to get. It could also have been the flagship set including Smaug and a really big and detailed tower (the 80€ Set could have been a proper Erebor set without Smaug then - while Smaug is awesome the builds were a huge dissapointment - Dale can be skipped... nobody asked for the terrible overpriced tan ruin... in the end it would have been easily possible to do a wave still with the poorly chosen pricepoints but at least with better sets simply changing which set gets which setting). As a 30€ set it´s just "meh" offering nothing more than the small set except for Orcs without ears and Tauriel ... and there is a reason why this character is that cheep on bricklink and there are "non-Tauriel"-cuts of the movie.

I might not have expressed myself correctly. What I meant was that somebody must have come up with the Idea that there isn´t enough money in the licence to go on with making sets. If it was different we would have such sets and less "new approaches" like nexo knights.

That´s true. But with this, barrel escape also in wave one and then the release of Smaug in wave 3 it already doesn´t fit much with the releases of the movies. So I don´t see where the point is in making it an important factor if sceenes are right now in the cinema, if a character like Thror would be a desirable figure.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Gorilla94

[MAB]

Sure, they could have moved scenes to different price points. But I don't think that solves all the problems.

Plus something else to consider is that LEGO often has to design the sets before the movie is complete so that they can some out at the same time the movie is in theatres. The Lonely Mountain / dwarf mines had to have the big set price point to do it well, and what they did is not too bad. It was never going to be MOC quality at the price. The Battle of the Five Armies also had to have a high price point, as presumably they were told this is one of the key themes of the third movie especially given the movie title. Although the build isn't great and the minifigure selection doesn't necessarily fit the location too well, it at least gives some play action around Dale and the damage by the orc army on Dale. Again, I don't think they could have done much better without knowing what is actually in the movie. No doubt the studio wanted them to have specific characters in the sets without LEGO knowing the specifics about the movie. Thorin vs Azog happens in the movie (just at Ravenhill not Dale), same with Legolas vs Orcs, Dain probably had to be in one of the sets. Of course, it is a shame there are no armies at the Battle of Five Armies.

Thror and Thrain are rather minor roles in the movies, so the studios probably didn't care too much about them. Alfrid probably has a bigger role yet is missing.

It would not surprise me if the sets were designed a year before the final movies was finished. I don't think someone suddenly decided there was no money in the license so they decided to stop making sets, but rather than they had an agreement to produce a wave to come out at the same time as each movie.

If anything, this shows why it is better to know the material before starting to design the sets. LOTR sets, original trilogy SW sets, and so on tend to be relatively good as the movies are known. Deciding what should go into The Hobbit sets is quite easy once you have watched all three completed movies and know what happens and in which movie. Designing sets before you know that going on what studios indicate may happen must be really difficult, especially when they make late changes as to what goes where. But then this is the problem of having sets designed, instructions produced and parts manufactured ready for when the movies are released. Yet if LEGO did not have the Hobbit sets out concurrently with the movies, chances are we would not have got any LEGO Hobbit or LOTR sets.

 

[gedren_y]

@MAB & @Gorilla94, part of the problem with The Hobbit sets was because the decision to stretch it into three movies came relatively late, and portions of the films were derived from some Tolkien notes, and other sources, not from the book. All LEGO could have reasonably gotten far enough in advance for some of their development timetable would be production images, and possibly some rough storyboards. The failure of character emphasis makes me reasonably sure that LEGO didn't get dialogue, and certainly not any preliminary filmed scenes.

On the subject of this thread, it looks like the minidoll licensed theme Raya and the Last Dragon will fill the Castle/fantasy slot.

[MAB]

22 hours ago, gedren_y said:

@MAB & @Gorilla94, part of the problem with The Hobbit sets was because the decision to stretch it into three movies came relatively late, and portions of the films were derived from some Tolkien notes, and other sources, not from the book. All LEGO could have reasonably gotten far enough in advance for some of their development timetable would be production images, and possibly some rough storyboards. The failure of character emphasis makes me reasonably sure that LEGO didn't get dialogue, and certainly not any preliminary filmed scenes.

I agree. Especially the Battle of Five Armies set having the Thorin / Azog fight in Dale and so on. Plus as already mentioned the "special preview set" marketting of the Barrel Escape was a good indication of scenes moving around once they decided to go from two to three movies, with LEGO getting caught out.

 

[LegoMFP_David]

Why hasn't there been a 'proper' castle theme since 2013?

 

Lego must know it is a very popular theme and the sets will always sell worldwide. All I can think of is due to the licenced sets like LOTR and maybe even Harry Potter to an extent.

It would be nice if over the next few years Lego went back to its older roots and gave us a good castle line.

[Lego David]

2 hours ago, LegoMFP_David said:

Why hasn't there been a 'proper' castle theme since 2013?

Original LEGO themes are usually being developed two years before their release, so with that in mind, I think it's safe to say that Nexo Knights started development around 2014, which is only one year after the last "proper" Castle line. And Nexo Knights lasted from 2016 to 2018, so from LEGO's perspective it's only been two years since we last had a Castle theme. Say what you will about NK, but I am pretty sure LEGO officially considers it a Castle theme, even if most AFOLs probably don't. 

LEGO probably thought that giving Castle a "Big Bang" twist would make Castle even more popular, but boy where they wrong. Not only did NK suffer from competing with Ninjago, but it also turned away most AFOLs because it was such a big departure from a "proper" Castle theme. The line ended up failing and ended after only two years. 

It's hard to say what LEGO thinks about LEGO Castle as a whole, but the failure of NK might make them reluctant to release another fully fledged Castle line any time soon. But hey, at the very least we might still get a few Castle-themed sets from LEGO Ideas.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Lego David

[LegoMFP_David]

1 hour ago, Lego David said:

 

It's hard to say what LEGO thinks about LEGO Castle as a whole, but the failure of NK might make them reluctant to release another fully fledged Castle line any time soon. But hey, at the very least we might still get a few Castle-themed sets from LEGO Ideas.

That's sad if they leave it another few years, you look on ebay and bricklink and any castle themed parts and minifigs are quite expensive now, which proves the demand is there.

 

Hopefully Lego will do some market research and bring it back sooner rather than later

[MAB]

2 hours ago, LegoMFP_David said:

That's sad if they leave it another few years, you look on ebay and bricklink and any castle themed parts and minifigs are quite expensive now, which proves the demand is there.

It proves some demand is there. But then there is demand for many things on BL.

2 hours ago, LegoMFP_David said:

Hopefully Lego will do some market research and bring it back sooner rather than later

LEGO is continually doing research on what they think will sell. They also have data on how well Castle sold back in the late 2000s and early 2010s. AFOLS (as a whole) didn't particularly like the 2013 sets, complaining about the similarity to previous sets and about the heraldry used. It's funny isn't it. AFOLs don't like it if LEGO brings out something too similar to what has gone before (Castle 2013), but also don't like it if it is too far away from what has gone before (Nexo Knights).

 

[AmperZand]

It isn’t just a matter of what sells but how much it costs to sell it. It’s the difference between revenues and margin.

Unlike the ‘70s and ‘80s when the Classic lines were new and kids’ attention could be targeted to a few TV stations at limited times and a relatively small number of publications, nowadays, kids’ attention is split across a vast array of media. To grab their attention requires a unifying story with easily identifiable characters and scenarios and hence LEGO’s focus on licences. That’s how you market in an atomised media environment. Even City which previously didn’t do that has started to do it with more named characters and a cartoon.

Unless LEGO can develop IP that plays that unifying role for Castle, it will never revisit medieval history/fantasy as a theme - except possibly in the form of one-off (Idea) sets as a bone to adults and AFOLs.

Edited December 4, 2020 by AmperZand

[LegoMFP_David]

Trouble is idea sets however great a very expensive to buy.

Its a shame really I didn't mind the 2013 castle sets. I suppose we better but the castle line like castles themselves to history and forget about them.

[Aanchir]

12 hours ago, Lego David said:

It's hard to say what LEGO thinks about LEGO Castle as a whole, but the failure of NK might make them reluctant to release another fully fledged Castle line any time soon. But hey, at the very least we might still get a few Castle-themed sets from LEGO Ideas.

I mean, for what it's worth, there's no reason to assume LEGO considers Nexo Knights a failure — particularly since as recently as summer 2018, at least one of the designers seemed to suggest otherwise:

Certainly, some folks at LEGO probably had higher hopes for the theme, particularly its tie-in media like the books, app, and TV series. But I can't really imagine them interpreting that as a problem with Castle themes more broadly. And anyway, very few themes are expected to last more than two and a half or three years, so ultimately Nexo Knights lasted about as long as it was probably intended to, just with a considerably reduced presence in its final year.

Furthermore, AFOLs have pretty much ALWAYS reacted negatively (at least at first) to "big bang" themes like Power Miners, Atlantis, Ninjago, Legends of Chima, Elves, and Nexo Knights (as well as "action/adventure themes" more generally like Agents, Hidden Side, Ultra Agents, Monkie Kid, etc).

Obviously, not everybody in the community hates these sorts of themes, and some people's opinions of them can end up improving over time. But chances are, LEGO wouldn't make themes like those at all if they were particularly concerned about whether AFOLs would like them, let alone continue releasing new ones every few years.

[Lego David]

5 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I mean, for what it's worth, there's no reason to assume LEGO considers Nexo Knights a failure — particularly since as recently as summer 2018, at least one of the designers seemed to suggest otherwise:

Then again, LEGO always seems to try to hide their failures... The official LEGO twitter account said the exact same thing when they were asked about how well the Bionicle reboot performed:

And of course, most people who are familiar with Bionicle probably know what actually happened with it, how it was pulled from shelves after only two years, despite the promise of at least a three year run at the NYCC 2014 event where Bionicle's return was first announced. 

I think the same could be said about something like Nexo Knights... The line was clearly intended to last for a least little longer, as proven by all the concept art it had (which featured various new monsters that never appeared in set form). But NK ended very abruptly in 2018 with a final wave that was clearly just thrown together at the last moment.