OFFICIAL REPORT TRAINS 9V

[xwingyoda]

Honestly, I think we all (myself included) need to stop thinking in terms of Lego "doing things for AFOLs." They did not create the Cafe Corner or the UCS Falcon out of some sense of charity or good will, or as a tribute to AFOLs. No way. They saw a market for a high-end set, so they exploited it.

I don't agree with you here !! Do you know many members capable of spending >500

[Paradosis]

Fwiw, regarding the compatibility of 9V and RC, the following question was asked on Lugnet:

Are the expected changes for 2009 from the ground up (new track standards, wheels, etc...) or is it going to be a continuation of the existing IR train stuff with probably a new power/control system?

Steve Witt gave the following answer:

while working on the new system its going to be very important that it be as backwards compatible as possible. L-gauge will not go away. the new system will be able to incorporate track from 9v and plastic rails into it. we'll be communicating soon more specifically on more attributes of the system, but it won't be an entirely "from the ground up" situation like the switch from 12v to 9v. There will be a lot of compatibility between the two systems.

[Joebot]

I don't agree with you here !! Do you know many members capable of spending >500

[alex54]

Lego does not care about us, beyond our ability to purchase their products.

Exactly!

It's not really a surprise that TLC finally "killed" the 9V system. And this system has the longest life of all electric system and motor(finally, I'm not sure, maybe it's the 12V system... but we have seen a lot of different motors in Technic, and the reactions are not as hot...).

Just hope that TLC takes the opportunity to make this new system more modern, with nice functions: like more sounds, lights, stop and start system...

I'm not complaining about it now, because we don't know anything about this new system. Just wait, see and hope that it wouldn't cost a lot to modify the train engines...

[xwingyoda]

I'm not complaining about it now, because we don't know anything about this new system. Just wait, see and hope that it wouldn't cost a lot to modify the train engines...

True BUT explain to parents that their kids' RC train is stopped !! What will they think ? That the RC system is deficient and will that assumption make them buy something that is probably more expensive ? Very doubtfull IMO !!

Look at Playmo for instance !! How long have their RC system been operationl ? and Its still up and running !!

*yoda*

[Mr Hobbles]

Wow, some interesting opinions in here.

First of all, I think that "consulting with AFOL's" consists of a little bit more than throwing us a bone. Discussions have been going on for a long time concerning 9v trains from what I can gather. TLG has shown us in the past that they frequently do consult AFOL's (Cafe Corner, Market Street, UCS Star Wars, Eiffel Tower, etc) so let's give them a little bit more credit.

Secondly, if a product isn't profitable, come up with something new. It's a basic rule of being competitive. Will it alienate people? Sure. But people will adapt.

If fleshie heads made it out into all LEGO sets, we would have two choices. Get old yellow heads on the aftermarket, or kit out our old minifigs with new stuff.

It seems to me that people seem to think this is the end of 9v trains, all the while forgetting the beauty of LEGO...everything can be changed. Want a new train? Build a new one. I guess in the future if people need more 9v stuff, there's always the aftermarket. Nobody's collection will become obsolete.

I love my 9v trains, and I would love to see them release more, but that's obviously not going to happen. If I want more there's plenty more stuff for me to buy from eBay/BrickLink. I'm also a bit skeptical about integrating the new "power functions" line into the trains, but let's wait and see what they do with it before we start hating. :-)

[gylman]

Maybe we AFOLs just have unreasonable expectations for what TLC is about. I think we all like to imagine they're a kindly group of friendly toymakers, when in fact they're just another multi-national corporation tyring to make gobs of money.

I understand people's frustration, but I think that's a bit harsh. TLC is not perfect, but I challenge you to name another toy company that spends this much energy communicating with their ADULT customer base. And it is apparent that they have been listening at least in part, or at least where economically feasable (castle, NXT, Town, Cafe Corner series, Technic bulldozer....)

None of us would be better off with TLC bankrupt.

Further, what's to say that the change from 9V to whatever new system comes into place will be so very hard? Most or all of our trains will still be usable. We don't know about the track of course = probably not.

[WesternOutlaw]

This news; unfortunately, does not surprise me. I said a while back that the future of the 9V line looks grim, and now it has come to fruition.

I am; however, still disappointed at Lego's decision. As others have mentioned, how could Lego expect 9V train sales to be better than marginal when it is a dormant theme.

I am glad that I didn't bother buying the new RC train(s). I figured my dollars were better spent on 9V tracks and motors before they sky rocket on E-Bay. Hopefully, the new trains will at least be the same size and use the same wheels parts. If not, then any new trains will be one more thing that I don't buy.

Well, at least we have some great new City sets; Castle, and Indiana Jones.

PS. To Lego decision makers: Shame on you! Another blow to AFOL, and there's a lot of 9V train enthusiasts across the World. Next, you'll be building your sets in China to save more $$$. Bad! >:-(

[gylman]

I am hopeful that they will not make the same mistake that was made (IMHO) between Mindstorms and NXT, where the lack of simple backward compatibility made people with an investment in Mindstorms just give up rather than embrace the technology (well, N=1 here, anyway). Anyone want to buy a couple of RCXs and a bunch of sensors? I'm just to darn lazy to sell it on eBay.

I don't see why a new train system has to be totally incompatible with the old unless they WANT it to be so, in order to force people to buy a bunch of new stuff. But, I believe that approach would fail because there is already so much 9V stuff out there that it will keep going for years and years, and then people would really be PO'ed.

Personally, I'm cautiously optimistic. TLC has done more right than wrong in the past couple of years with set design and technology choices.They are not a bunch of idiots.

[Brick Miner]

here is the part i don't like... how many choices have we had for train tracks now in the past few years...

9V old grey tracks

9V new grey tracks (for only a few years)

RC tracks (for very few years)

and now, powerfunctions tracks, possibly ??? or will it be the same as 9V ???

i don't like the idea of incompatability within LEGO SYSTEM... the whole system should be compatable, and the same, without slight color differences or production differences (for those of us who are track purists ;-) ).

but i do agree with glyman, LEGO has been producing some good sets lately, so im hopeful for that this new system is great, and we AFOL can invest in it for years to come, and not have to worry about our purchases becoming out-dated and extinct with new train systems every 2-3 years.

the LEGO "SYSTEM" mentality is the essence of their products, i hope they stick to this fundamental in the future.

- BM

[Siegfried]

I can't say that I am surprised here and I do think Lego deserve points for giving AFOLs a year or so to stock up on spares.

The current motors are mind-boggingly strong - I have only the small motor, and I've witnessed it rip the gearbox in the old, green 4x4 apart, and my brother had a blast when he had the motor power the ferris wheel directly, watching it disintegrate under the torque and speed that motor puts out. So I reckon that it has to be power-hungry.

My bulldozer gives me hours of fun, even on rechargable batteries! *wub*

I mean look at how crappy the AT-AT and Dino walk !!

Personally I like the way the Dino walks. :'-(

that is the most striking part of this news to me... not that we are finally seeing the end of 9V (i think we all knew that was coming). but i can't believe that LEGO took the time to develop an entirely new train system, and it only lasted for 3 years !!! now that is just stupid if they want dedicated fans to have faith in the longevity of their products.

As a RC train owner I personally am a bit annoyed that the RC trains they are dead as well, but since Lego are changing power cables it is hardly surprising either. I love the new Power Functions motor system and I hope that Lego design a new IR sensor that can do different speeds as it will be useful for many models. My best guess is they will make a new motor like the old car body style one so it can be used for more than just trains. I do find it interesting that they say...

The existing machines need to be replaced

..as that implies that the RC train motor is similarly made to the old one, and thus uses the same machine. Or am I reading things wrong? I assumed that the RC line would have a second wave...

[maiq the liar]

... then the flesh-toned mini-figs ...

Here's me Closing up that ugly plothole in the EPIC timeline of lego:

The flesh colored minifigures have a miniscule amount of pink pigment mixing in with their regular yellow pigments, giving them a appearance closer to the "HYO--MAANS"

[Freddie]

I can't say that I am surprised here and I do think Lego deserve points for giving AFOLs a year or so to stock up on spares.

As a RC train owner I personally am a bit annoyed that the RC trains they are dead as well, but since Lego are changing power cables it is hardly surprising either. I love the new Power Functions motor system and I hope that Lego design a new IR sensor that can do different speeds as it will be useful for many models. My best guess is they will make a new motor like the old car body style one so it can be used for more than just trains. I do find it interesting that they say...

..as that implies that the RC train motor is similarly made to the old one, and thus uses the same machine. Or am I reading things wrong? I assumed that the RC line would have a second wave...

I have to agree with Sinner here; LEGO is indeed giving us plenty of time to stock up on the items crucial for the 9V trains. Not that I will do so, I'm interested in this new system.

I have to admit, I was a bit puzzled when LEGO released their new power functions system so close to the RC-train system. The two systems are only compatible by converters, and the PF-system is superior in practically every aspect - it's much more compact (except for power-supply), more customisable and cables have less resistance. The RC trains being replaced with PF trains was, now that I look at it, inevitable. Besides, we might see a price reduction as well on all the electric components, now that they are used more universally.

(On a side note, Power Functions works wonders for the 8448 Supercar - it now pulls in every gear. I'm considering buying some extra PF-bits to make it fully remote - there's ample space in it for such a conversion.)

[Hobbes]

Interesting...

[Joebot]

I am hopeful that they will not make the same mistake that was made (IMHO) between Mindstorms and NXT, where the lack of simple backward compatibility made people with an investment in Mindstorms just give up rather than embrace the technology (well, N=1 here, anyway). Anyone want to buy a couple of RCXs and a bunch of sensors? I'm just to darn lazy to sell it on eBay.

I don't see why a new train system has to be totally incompatible with the old unless they WANT it to be so, in order to force people to buy a bunch of new stuff. But, I believe that approach would fail because there is already so much 9V stuff out there that it will keep going for years and years, and then people would really be PO'ed.

Personally, I'm cautiously optimistic. TLC has done more right than wrong in the past couple of years with set design and technology choices.They are not a bunch of idiots.

No, they're definitely not idiots. And I think the "cautiously optimistic" attitude is a good one to have at this point. I WANT to believe that Lego can pull this off successfully ... but I'm not convinced that they can.

My biggest concern is that they don't yet seem to understand that you simply CAN NOT p-ss off your hardcore fans and expect to be successful.

Here's a recent example from a different industry. I'm a big Mac user, so I follow Apple about as closely as I do Lego. In June Apple released two models of their fancy new iPhone. People stood in line for days to buy one the first day they were on sale. Two months later, Apple cut the price of the high-end version by $200, and dropped the low-end version altogether. All those people who were there at the first day were angry. Really, REALLY angry. A product that they paid $600 for is now $400, a mere two months later! And those were Apple's diehard fanboys. Apple got bombarded with emails and phone calls, and a few days later Steve Jobs issued a press released that basically said, "Oops. Sorry, guys. Here's a $100 gift card." It was a nice gesture, but really didn't solve the problem. Apple p-ssed off their hardcore fans, and they took a ton of grief for it -- bad publicity, angry consumers. Heck, even a couple of lawsuits! Lego is now doing the same thing since the train fans tend to be hardcore, big spending Lego consumers. That's just not a good decision.

It seems like Lego is TRYING to do the right thing by giving people plenty of notice about the decision (unlike the bley change). That's pretty cool. And there was a post on Lugnet that said the track gauge is likely not changing. That's pretty cool too.

It's going to be a loooong wait to '09 to see what Lego comes up with .....

[Mr Hobbles]

It's an entirely different situation.

Apple lowered the price of a product by $200 dollars within two months of the launch date. This is not comparable to the usual price reductions in the technology sector. The reason there was an uproar is not simply because they annoyed their fans, its because it basically amounts to the early adopters being ripped off. As I said, $200 is two months is a huge price drop for the technology sector.

On the other hand LEGO has been supporting the same 9v trains for well over 15 years (The Metroliner was 1991 and was the same 9v system), and been supporting it well.

I think LEGO is allowed to move on to a new product.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Mr Hobbles

[Widdi]

That's some news, that make me shocked. Ok, I'm not really a trainhead, and only having some sets of the Classic 9V system, but the main problem is I've got only one motor, and if that breaks down I'll get problems due to the system change. Well it keeps running now since 11 years, due to rare use, as I`m a classic townie. But I'll have to go out and get me some more classic motors now, before they get bloody expensive at ebay. I hope that the new system, doesn't use such a huge ugly battery box like the RC system, because of small train vehicles, which don't look right when adding a long 32 stud power car. My classic train 10183 stock/MOC-mix lately, would be messed up by building a battery car with the current huge box, due to the sheer lenght. Another great thing would be backward compatibility with my very old 119 from the early 4,5 volt system back in 1968, which could eventually be obtained with the battery power, but only on rechargable ones.

mFg Widdi

[Brick Miner]

I think LEGO is allowed to move on to a new product.

i don't know... what if LEGO said they were increasing the size of the standard system scale stud ??? and nothing produced further would be compatable with anything prior ???

that is pretty much what we have here, just on a smaller scale. incompatablity.

- BM

[Mr Hobbles]

i don't know... what if LEGO said they were increasing the size of the standard system scale stud ??? and nothing produced further would be compatable with anything prior ???

I hadn't thought about that, that's a very good point.

LEGO hasn't said anything about making the new system incompatible though, they may still use the same tracks. For all we know we could be able to run the new Power functions trains on the same tracks as the 9v ones.

[Hinckley]

I hadn't thought about that, that's a very good point.

LEGO hasn't said anything about making the new system incompatible though, they may still use the same tracks. For all we know we could be able to run the new Power functions trains on the same tracks as the 9v ones.

However, you can't run a 9v train on the new tracks...and they have said they wouldn't produce the 9v train tracks anymore making the new track incompatible with an existing 9v layout.

[Freddie]

i don't know... what if LEGO said they were increasing the size of the standard system scale stud ??? and nothing produced further would be compatable with anything prior ???

that is pretty much what we have here, just on a smaller scale. incompatablity.

- BM

Steve Witt has confirmed that the new trains will be as backwards compatible as possible (within reasonable limits). The new rails, if new at all, will interconnect with the previous rails (L-Gauge will live on). The system change is nowhere as drastic as the jump from 12V to 9V in 1990, and compatability with acessories in other product lines (such as aux. motors) is a big plus in my book.

[Hobbes]

Seems somebody was upset and set LEGOLAND Windsor on fire...

[Mr Hobbles]

Seems somebody was upset and set LEGOLAND Windsor on fire...

Wow, looks like there are some die-hard 9v fans out there! :-D

[Joebot]

It's an entirely different situation.

Apple lowered the price of a product by $200 dollars within two months of the launch date. This is not comparable to the usual price reductions in the technology sector. The reason there was an uproar is not simply because they annoyed their fans, its because it basically amounts to the early adopters being ripped off. As I said, $200 is two months is a huge price drop for the technology sector.

On the other hand LEGO has been supporting the same 9v trains for well over 15 years (The Metroliner was 1991 and was the same 9v system), and been supporting it well.

I think LEGO is allowed to move on to a new product.

It's not a perfect analogy by any means, but I thought it might be illustrative to show how another company badly handled a situation that angered lots of their biggest supporters. Hopefully nobody slaps Lego with a frivolous lawsuit like Apple got hit with this week!!

[Klaus-Dieter]

That's a very dolorous development!

I liked the 9V trains the most of all trains.

Finishing the period of 9V trains is very shattering for every AFOL who loves trains.

If you ask me: I don't think Lego goes the right direction!

Of course kids love and will love trains no matter of which sort - 9V, 12V, 4,5V, RC or power functions.

But for AFOLs the 9V system is the best train system to expand your train unit:

-The tracks and turnouts look with there metal on top like real tracks and turnouts - and not only (like the new RC tracks) like cheap plastic.

-The turnouts and the transformer are easily to operate.

-You can use the normal electricity and don't need to buy lots of batteries the whole time.

Another argument is that I'm able to navigate the train from the transformer and don't need a remote control. I have the opinion that train sounds are nice but not necessary - they are only corny!

For AFOLs or Lego clubs which have more than one or two trains a remote control system (which surely would be part of the power functions system, too) is very circular. It might even be that there will be intricacies because there won't be enough channels to send the right signals from the remote controls to the right trains.

The account says that Lego collaborates with AFOLs - but how much they collaborate with them and how much the position of the AFOLs count isn't said.

Lego says that 9V trains were sold very badly the last years - I say:

-The 9V accessory is much too expensive! Look at the turnouts: The new German S@H catalog for fall says 36,99 Euros - that's extortion! Who should/is able to buy 9V accesssory for these prices?!

-Were there any 9V trains which included a 9V motor the last years?! Of course there was this huge red 9V Hobby Train this (or was it last?) year, but it didn't include minifigs, a platform or other nice stuff which would be in my opinion necessary to get through to a huge mass of Lego fans (kids, parents and AFOLs). So it's no contingency that this train set wasn't sold very much.

-The Christmas train of last year was sold very much - that's antithetic to the argument that 9V trains weren't sold well in the last years!

Of course power functions would give trains the possibility for more functions - like for example an electric train crane in a cargo trian set like 7898 or for little lamps in a dining-car in a passenger train set like 7897 - but all in all I would much more like to see new 9V trains !

If TLC doesn't be too much interested in what AFOLs would prefer or not - they should (in order to do not anger many AFOLs completely) at least sell 9V accessory furthermore - but please for affordable prices!

Edited October 3, 2007 by Klaus-Dieter