[MOC] [WIP] The Command of the AT-AT

[Midlife-crisis]

This project is so incredible, the details on the panels, feet, everywhere look so smooth. Stunning!

[pittpenguin123]

Photos of the design in real life will come once my order from B&P arrives, until then, enjoy these in program and rendered images : )

O : i cant wait

[dmaclego]

I think there needs to be some reinforcement beams

Indeed! Unless both body and head of your model will be ultra-light, which is, well, impossible.

Also, about accurate details: the 10x10 dishes just shouldn't be there :) . I know you need to hide the mechanism somehow but the 2 studs wide "tears" are already too thick as it is (just the same as in my my model, so I don't blame you here ;) ) and adding a 10x10 dish on the inside will make it hard for you to squeeze the "jet engines" between them (or whatever they are, the tubular parts between legs, usually represented by large LEGO wheels).

Edited April 12, 2016 by dmaclego

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

Thats a beautiful execution of the 'shoulder blade' LMFDF! But unless im missing something, surely those turntables have no chance of holding the weight of this thing? Is it being reinforced elsewhere at some point?

Keep up the fantastic work my friend :)

Thanks Reflexes!

I believe it will work better than alternatively using just a Technic pin, as a gear can be inserted to lock it in place. Though I definitely want to inspect how well the whole setup will work in real life…

Looking at the most recent design for the leg, I think There needs to be a vertical beam connecting both the top and bottom of the tear shape, otherwise the turntable will force the two haves apart under weight. and how's the other turntable connected? I think there needs to be some reinforcement beams to maintain structural integrity for it. I also think that the axle connecting the gear to the other half will twist like a screw under the weight of it. I think there needs to be an addition of wedge belt wheels on the inside of the leg, and secured to the turntable by some means.

Well, there is several 2 x 6 and 1 x 6 plates at the core which are sandwiched together with brackets overladen with plates, but the obvious weak point is definitely where I was forced to use those sloped 2 x 2 x 3 brick, though I will keep looking into possibilities to reinforce it as you suggested.

I am curious to know how the wedge belt will add support, I have no experience with using it in the fashion you suggested.

Thank for continuing sharing your advice in this field!

This project is so incredible, the details on the panels, feet, everywhere look so smooth. Stunning!

Much appreciated!

O : i cant wait

Maybe I should have mentioned once after B&P ships, because that is what I am also waiting for. (Those orders with the crucial parts)

Indeed! Unless both body and head of your model will be ultra-light, which is, well, impossible.

Also, about accurate details: the 10x10 dishes just shouldn't be there :) . I know you need to hide the mechanism somehow but the 2 studs wide "tears" are already too thick as it is (just the same as in my my model, so I don't blame you here ;) ) and adding a 10x10 dish on the inside will make it hard for you to squeeze the "jet engines" between them (or whatever they are, the tubular parts between legs, usually represented by large LEGO wheels).

Yes, the dish is just to cover up the unsightly hole where the turntable is located, but I will probably see if I can fill it in a bit and then I could use a smaller dish. At the moment I do not know how space apart the legs will be (though not much more than it already is), and how big I want the tubular section to be.

[Tommy Styrvoky]

Would there be a ldd file? then I could show you how to fix one of the issues with the wedge belt wheels.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Tommy Styrvoky

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

Would there be a ldd file? then I could show you how to fix one of the issues with the wedge belt wheels.

I suppose that would be easier to work with and demonstrate, than drafting an illustration…

AT-AT_Leg_Joint.lxf

[Tommy Styrvoky]

I suppose that would be easier to work with and demonstrate, than drafting an illustration…

AT-AT_Leg_Joint.lxf

Thanks, I see some areas that look very prone to failing, the 1/2 stud attachment points for the 24z gears, will fail under strain, and probably break parts, and the attachment of the second turntable is made entirely out of studded pieces, that will fail too. I will see what I can do to improve it without changing the shape too much.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Tommy Styrvoky

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

Thanks, I see some areas that look very prone to failing, the 1/2 stud attachment points for the 24z gears, will fail under strain, and probably break parts, and the attachment of the second turntable is made entirely out of studded pieces, that will fail too. I will see what I can do to improve it without changing the shape too much.

Alright, thanks in advance!

[La Chupacabra]

I agree with Tommy - 1/2 pin will be not enough to keep 24z gear.

[Tommy Styrvoky]

I reworked it, I attempted to keep most of the external structure the same, but I am a little uncertain how the joint between the leg and teardrop will hold up under weight, If there was 3 wide studs of area to work with, it could be made nearly indestructible. I changed the points for affixing the axles to, but I don't know how well they will work. Another thought for solving the issue of affixing axles is to use the old version of the 24z gears, they have 3 axle holes, and they would work to add to extra mounting points for the end of the teardrop part.

AT-AT leg/hip joint Reworked by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

AT-AT leg/hip joint Reworked by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

AT-AT leg/hip joint Reworked by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

AT-AT leg/hip joint Reworked by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

AT-AT leg/hip joint Reworked by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

LDD file http://www.bricksafe.com/files/Tommy_styrvoky/AT-AT_Leg_Joint.lxf

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

If there was 3 wide studs of area to work with, it could be made nearly indestructible.

How would that be possible?

Another thought for solving the issue of affixing axles is to use the old version of the 24z gears, they have 3 axle holes, and they would work to add to extra mounting points for the end of the teardrop part.

Oh, I forgot about that version—that would as well work better!

Thank you for helping out!

[Tommy Styrvoky]

How would that be possible?

If the teardrop was 3 studs wide. I think It will hold up fine to vertical forces acting upon it, but under torsional stress it will fail, so don't push the model side to side.

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

If the teardrop was 3 studs wide. I think It will hold up fine to vertical forces acting upon it, but under torsional stress it will fail, so don't push the model side to side.

Oh I see, though at first I somehow thought you were referring to the space within the internal structure.

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

Those thingies looked like they might be AT-AT floaties

Haha, that is a nice observation!

[Kristof]

To be completely honest - I doubt there is a (kragle free) way to make this happen eventually. Even with big design sacrifices, this double turntable thing is probably to high stakes :(

Also it's good time to recall what was the original porpose of this whole endeavor - the poseability. Well, even if this is stiff enough by some miracle, posing it requires almost complete disassembly. There is nothing like easy manipulation with these joints.

LilMe, you have some excellent design ideas and almost golden hands for details and finishing touches. But to me it seems you build from outside - which is lethal way to go with a monstrous build like this. From your LDD file it really looks like you build the outer shell with its perfect shaping and faces and then you somehow wedge the technic parts into. And honestly, the way you had the turntables fixed was far, far from being rigid. I mean like ...zero chance.

I don't say that building some technic frame that is self supporting and then just stick on the faceplates is correct - in this case neither of these options works exclusively (especially with your high accuracy requirements) and ou basically need to combine the two. Which is tough... Especially embedding these turntables rigidly into mostly even stud sized frame is hard (maybe switching to odd style would help? ...I don't know. I tried it very fast and could ot come up with anything useful).

Given how difficult this task is, Tommy did a great job. If nothing else, his version may be worth a try. I checked his design and I only suggest several changes which I made in the file HERE.

To conclude nevertheless, I have to repeat what I started with - maybe this whole pursuit is pointless. And be sure that I'm the guy who usually is optimistic and supportive for ambitious ideas. Trying to reach such perfection in both accuracy and functionality seems to be a bigger bite than one can chew.

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

I doubt there is a (kragle free) way to make this happen eventually.

The kragle are you kidding me! You know how much backlash I got from using that stuff? I'll never use that stuff again, never!

Okay, I was just exaggerating that in a comical way .

Though, all truthful criticism; me using it was an unethical thing to do…

…you somehow wedge the technic parts into.

I used the force

Humor aside, thanks kris for joining in on the latest discussion about the design for the joint!

Firstly, I will admit that the first design for the structure was utterly crap… Implementing Technic elements into the brick system just by the means of half pins connected with plates to secure the turntable was really inadequate for a well structured design. I knew it was bound fail or to hold up as well to my expectations (especially for where the sloped 2 x 2 x 3 bricks are concerned), but then Tommy stepped in and did phenomenal work with overhauling the design in such quick period, whilst keeping the shape of the joint!

I reworked it, I attempted to keep most of the external structure the same,

Upon exploring his design, I was reminded of the technique by creating a crevice with Technic bricks throughout, there is the possibility of implementing an effective structure within the build. I did this similarly with the top of the leg, though I do not know why I did not reconsider doing the same for this joint, nevertheless I am grateful for Tommy's improvements.

For certain I had no other choice than to go along with Tommy's design, because mine certainly would not hold up for long term or even hardly at all, but I of course could not have went along with all those exposed Technic pins—that was my work to handle. So I stepped in and revised Tommy's improvements, whilst keeping his structure at core—they're even similar to yours quite in the fashion of using the Technic 180º axel and pin connector with the connector hub with 1 axel. Some of my additions include implementing 1 x 1 Technic bricks for additional points of connection of the whole Technic structure to the rest of the build, and also properly connecting the turntable to the front end of joint in an effective fashion.

Well, even if this is stiff enough by some miracle, posing it requires almost complete disassembly.

Well, my designs actually involves leaving the chamber for where a 24z gear would be inserted unobstructed and an axel 4 with stop through the gear, so that the gear can be easily removed and without it being trapped in. However, I will inevitably be required to use the old style 24z gear, which is unfortunate since it retired in 1998 (almost two decades old)!

Also, about accurate details: the 10x10 dishes just shouldn't be there :) . I know you need to hide the mechanism somehow but the 2 studs wide "tears" are already too thick as it is (just the same as in my my model, so I don't blame you here ;) ) and adding a 10x10 dish on the inside will make it hard for you to squeeze the "jet engines" between them…

Now as the design is filled up more than before, only a 6 x 6 dish with a 2 x 2 round plate is sufficient to cover up the mechanism.

Photos of my revisions below:

[Tommy Styrvoky]

Photos of my revisions below:

Looks good, I was going for a more functional rough version, I see you cleaned up the extra technic holes. I think the middle section between the #2 technic connectors and the other half of the teardrop need more reinforcement, thought It does have the upper and lower plates joining it.

To conclude nevertheless, I have to repeat what I started with - maybe this whole pursuit is pointless. And be sure that I'm the guy who usually is optimistic and supportive for ambitious ideas. Trying to reach such perfection in both accuracy and functionality seems to be a bigger bite than one can chew.

This is somewhat ambitious, I know someone on the Technic forum that's trying to make a highly detailed plane that can fly with commercial motors... Though If this model works it will be the ultimate AT-AT. Edited April 14, 2016 by Tommy Styrvoky

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

Looks good, I was going for a more functional rough version, I see you cleaned up the extra technic holes. I think the middle section between the #2 technic connectors and the other half of the teardrop need more reinforcement, thought It does have the upper and lower plates joining it.

Yes, it appears solid for the most part, though I see if other various element designs were available it could certainly have improved more so from them, but this will work for now…

[Kristof]

The old style crown gear has even weaker structure. I can imagine really big flex in it's axle, especially when bigger torque is applied

I just got an idea though - since it's so tricky to grip the turntable using the inner teeth, why not to try it from outside? You could maybe reverse the turntable and mount the gear rack 4 so it just grips the outside teeth. I didn't try it but maybe it would be worth a shot :)

Anyway, I think you really won't get the image until you build some prototypes and test the rigidity in real. It's just my experience that LDD is super misleading in this. Something looks fancy and super well interconected but in real build there are aspects like slack in the parts (technic half pin makes for very loose connection for example), small gaps between technic and system parts (given by smaller width of technic parts) and these things eventually spoil the stiffness.

[Forresto]

How heavy is this bad boy?

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

The old style crown gear has even weaker structure. I can imagine really big flex in it's axle, especially when bigger torque is applied

I just got an idea though - since it's so tricky to grip the turntable using the inner teeth, why not to try it from outside? You could maybe reverse the turntable and mount the gear rack 4 so it just grips the outside teeth. I didn't try it but maybe it would be worth a shot :)

Anyway, I think you really won't get the image until you build some prototypes and test the rigidity in real. It's just my experience that LDD is super misleading in this. Something looks fancy and super well interconected but in real build there are aspects like slack in the parts (technic half pin makes for very loose connection for example), small gaps between technic and system parts (given by smaller width of technic parts) and these things eventually spoil the stiffness.

The gear will connect to the leg by its two addition axle holes, so that will help. I just checked with the gear racks, but I do not see them working out efficiently in the very limited space they would have; it might have been easier if inverted versions were available. Plus, if the turntable were to be reverse the gear would rotate along with it than locking it in position, and if the gear was otherwise fixed to the turntable and frame then it will really require quite some disassembling, because it will have to be removed from the opposite direction where the leg connects to the joint.

Indeed we will all have to see how well it works, though things can turn out better than what I imagined.

Edited April 15, 2016 by LiLmeFromDaFuture

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

How heavy is this bad boy?

The joint that consists of 213 pieces which weighs around 173 grams, the leg that consists of 868 pieces which weighs around 2lbs/1kg, or the whole model which will indefinitely consist of 6000+ pieces?

[Kristof]

The gear will connect to the leg by its two addition axle holes, so that will help.

Oh, I thought you were talking this type. Now the other gear, doesn't it have the same problems with being inserted into assembled turntable as the newer type does? I thought that was why you wanted to use the crown gear.

[LiLmeFromDaFuture]

Oh, I thought you were talking this type. Now the other gear, doesn't it have the same problems with being inserted into assembled turntable as the newer type does? I thought that was why you wanted to use the crown gear.

Yes, I originally purposed to use the crown gear because its design would be easier to insert in the turntable, but it could only barely be connected to the leg (you can observe this with my original design). With the old styled gear the extra axle holes add more secured points of connection, though its design does arise some difficulties with inserting it. However, since the positions are quite limited with the gear, I'll set the desired position before assembling the turntable completely.

[Kristof]

^ Oh, I see Well then just any efforts to make the joint 'easily adjustable' are pointless aren't they?