Progress & Standards in Minifigure Details

[x105Black]

Backstory

:

When I was a youngster in the 80's, I was a very big fan of LEGO. I collected and built many sets, and had many minifigures. I used to regularly switch around pieces to make the best looking minifigures. This included swapping out everything from torsos, heads, and hands, to arms, legs, and hips. I was aware of every detail.

I loved when new sets would come out that had minifigures with more advanced details than in previous sets. New head prints, beyond the standard smile, were a step forward for LEGO as a company.

I grew away from LEGO in my teens and twenties as I explored other hobbies and interests. When I returned to LEGO in my thirties, I was happy to see that this progress never stopped. LEGO was now printing on the legs and backs of minifigures, and their prints were looking better than ever. And this has continued to the present day, with new developments like side leg printing, arm printing, and dual molded parts.

The point

:

LEGO has made considerable progress in the way that they detail their minifigures. They are capable of so much more now than they were 20-30 years ago. They have increased their standards of design again and again, constantly creating more and more detailed minifigures.

But they don't seem to use these techniques as often as I would expect. Leg and back printing have become commonplace, but the more recent advances of side leg printing, arm printing, and dual molding are seen less frequently. Is it because they are new techniques? We see these advances in Collectible Minifigures, in Dimensions, in polybags, and in larger sets. If they can use these new techniques, then why aren't more sets including them?

For example, why is it that they have made very detailed versions of C-3PO and Boba Fett from Star Wars in 2015, both of which include highly detailed printing, only to make less detailed versions of the same characters the next year in 2016 that lack these advances? It would seem to me that this is a step backwards in progress, a regression, stepping away from the design apex that was set only a year earlier. Do others see it this way?

Some have made the point that the idea is to make more detailed minifigures exclusive, bringing more incentive to spend on more expensive sets. Does this not reduce the incentive to spend on the sets with newer, less detailed minifigures?

Others have made the point that it would make the sets more expensive if they would include these details. Would it really increase the cost enough to be a big factor in the overall set price?

Conclusion

:

What is the general concensus of the people on Eurobricks?

As LEGO advances their techniques, should they make these advanced printing and molding techniques a new standard for minifigures, or should they keep these more detailed minifigures as exclusives and incentives?

Edited December 17, 2015 by x105Black

[Lyichir]

Firstly, I think it's worth mentioning that not all figs need printing on all printable surfaces. A figure whose legs aren't detailed is often better off without leg printing. If a figure's back lacks detail, or is covered by a cape or armor by default, then back printing shouldn't be considered a necessity.

Now that that's out of the way... you are correct that Lego's capability to implement things like leg printing, back printing, and dual molding is limited. Lego didn't just up and replace their previous printing machines or leg and arm molds once they had developed new techniques—that would be phenomenally expensive. Rather, they have printing machines and new leg and arm molds that supplement their original equipment—and the quantity of those new machines and molds is far more limited than the old standards. As such, while it may not cost substantially more to print the legs, arms, or backs of figures, that capability has to be prioritized according to demand.

So in the case of a figure like C-3PO, it's much easier to justify the added detail for a polybag figure that is both more limited in supply than cheap Star Wars sets and is meant to help drive demand for other sets. In Boba Fett's case, it's likely that it was easier to justify the high-detail printing for an expensive UCS set than for a smaller set that will be sold through all major retailers and as such is being produced in much higher quantities. It's not just about making those more limited figures more valuable (though that probably is part of it), but also just a consequence of Lego's production lines for those detailed figs—every moment spent producing one figure is time that that machine is incapable of producing a different figure, and as such it's much more practical to use those machines for more limited runs than it would be to devote them to figs that'll appear in cheap, common sets.

[x105Black]

Firstly, I think it's worth mentioning that not all figs need printing on all printable surfaces. A figure whose legs aren't detailed is often better off without leg printing. If a figure's back lacks detail, or is covered by a cape or armor by default, then back printing shouldn't be considered a necessity.

Now that that's out of the way... you are correct that Lego's capability to implement things like leg printing, back printing, and dual molding is limited. Lego didn't just up and replace their previous printing machines or leg and arm molds once they had developed new techniques—that would be phenomenally expensive. Rather, they have printing machines and new leg and arm molds that supplement their original equipment—and the quantity of those new machines and molds is far more limited than the old standards. As such, while it may not cost substantially more to print the legs, arms, or backs of figures, that capability has to be prioritized according to demand.

So in the case of a figure like C-3PO, it's much easier to justify the added detail for a polybag figure that is both more limited in supply than cheap Star Wars sets and is meant to help drive demand for other sets. In Boba Fett's case, it's likely that it was easier to justify the high-detail printing for an expensive UCS set than for a smaller set that will be sold through all major retailers and as such is being produced in much higher quantities. It's not just about making those more limited figures more valuable (though that probably is part of it), but also just a consequence of Lego's production lines for those detailed figs—every moment spent producing one figure is time that that machine is incapable of producing a different figure, and as such it's much more practical to use those machines for more limited runs than it would be to devote them to figs that'll appear in cheap, common sets.

This is a great response. Thank you for presenting it in such a reasonable tone. You seem to have a lot more knowledge about their production capabilities than I do.

On the first point, I completely agree. Not every minifigure needs these details. Some can certainly benefit from them, and it is these cases where such details would be appropriate that I am discussing.

On the rest, I understand your points. This could mean that these types of advances could become more standardized in the future, as LEGO gains the ability to obtain more equipment to facilitate them. Essentially, patience is needed.

Still, I find it strange that a highly detailed version of a character would have a less detailed version as it's successor. It works contrary to the way I perceive progress, and I guess that just really irks me.

Edited December 17, 2015 by x105Black

[LegoFjotten]

I think the poll doesn't include the right questions to be useful in arriving at good conclusion.

Q1) The questions fails to take production capacity into account (which Lyichir explains really well)

Q2) One or more exclusive minifigure(s) will increase the incentive to buy any set. I don't find it strange that LEGO chooses to go "all in" on their most exclusive products that are produced in much smaller quantities. You will find exclusive minifigures in sets at all price levels too.

Q3) At the moment the issue is probably capacity so it doesn't really matter what we all think about the cost of arm printing. For reference, on Bricks & Pieces a torso with arm printing costs 3x more than a regular torso, while front/back printed torsos costs the same as unprinted torsos.

I think we will see a lot more arm printing and dual molded fig parts in the future once the new factories are in full production and capacity is up. Just take a look at the various dual molded helmets, they are already making their way into regular sets at all price levels. Don't be surprised if it takes several years for arm printing to be the new standard though.

I am 100% sure there is no ill-will or evil master plan from LEGO to conquer our wallets using tactical arm-printing.

[tafkatb]

Why doesn't every Malibu Stacy doll come with a new hat?!

[Junior Shark]

In the words of Albert Einstein, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." This issue of minifigure printing was brought up in the Star Wars forum, and the overwhelming response was the same as those in this thread. Now it's been brought up in this forum, and it's more of the same. Surprise, surprise.

I hate to speak for everyone on this forum, but from what I've seen over in the Star Wars forum, and now here, the vast majority understand Lego's business practices (and capitalism), and therefore have no objection to the current status of minifigure exclusivity. It really just comes down to patience, like you said. Remember Imperial Inspection? That certainly didn't usher in a sea change when it comes to leg printing. Leg printing's only been more standardized in the last couple years. Arm printing is becoming more and more common in the last couple, as well. Just have patience, young one.

It's like cars (sort of [actually cars and Lego really aren't that close, but bear with me]). Just because Porsche can make a hybrid supercar (918 Spyder), doesn't mean that all of their cars after that suddenly become hybrid supercars, too. And people don't expect Porsche to keep churning out hybrid supercars! The technological developments made in the 918 will slowly creep into standard-production 911s.

To keep bringing this issue up merely because:

I guess that just really irks me.

The horse is dead. Stop beating it. And I really don't want to come across sounding rude or curt (okay, maybe curt ), but I think slow progress is a baked-in, implicit part of being a Lego fan (or a fan of anything [heck, it's part of being a human!]). Get back to where you were as a youngster in the 80s! Just love it when Lego takes a step forward in minifigure printing! Don't overthink it too much!

Edited December 17, 2015 by Junior Shark

[LegoFjotten]

Just noticed the there are two sets with arm printing (Winter Soldier), and one set with a figure with dual molded arms among the 2016 Superheroes sets.

[Robianco]

I think we all know that as things go on dual moulding and 360º printing will become more and more of a regular occurrence.

This all started because of the Boba Fett figure in the Slave 1 not being the same as the figure in the upcoming Freezing Chamber... but let's not forget... this exact character has previous for this exact same thing. 10123 Cloud City was released in 2003 with leg and arm printing on Boba Fett... up to 3 years later Lego was still using the 'updated' (bley instead of classic grey) version without arm and leg printing. 12 years later they put Fett in a new UCS set and then simplify it for the non-UCS set. It's nothing to lose sleep over.

[x105Black]

I think the poll doesn't include the right questions to be useful in arriving at good conclusion.

I am 100% sure there is no ill-will or evil master plan from LEGO to conquer our wallets using tactical arm-printing.

Fair enough. The production capacity issue hadn't come up in previous discussions, so I can see how that would be an issue.

I doubt there's a master plan either.

Just noticed the there are two sets with arm printing (Winter Soldier), and one set with a figure with dual molded arms among the 2016 Superheroes sets.

That's wonderful! Although if that's the case, why they wouldn't include it in the Star Wars sets coming out around the same time is beyond me.

I think we all know that as things go on dual moulding and 360º printing will become more and more of a regular occurrence.

I sure hope so! It would only lead to a better all-around product for everyone!

[rollermonkey]

Fair enough. The production capacity issue hadn't come up in previous discussions, so I can see how that would be an issue.

That's wonderful! Although if that's the case, why they wouldn't include it in the Star Wars sets coming out around the same time is beyond me.

Um. Put these two together, and you've answered your own question. Aside from that, what SW figure desperately needs dual molded limbs?

[x105Black]

Um. Put these two together, and you've answered your own question. Aside from that, what SW figure desperately needs dual molded limbs?

I could think of a few that would greatly benefit from it, but I suppose no figure "desperately needs" dual molded limbs, in the same way that none of us "desperately need" minifigures or LEGO at all.

As far as these things are concerned, the original issue to me was that they had released versions of characters with a lot of detail, then released essentially the same versions a year later without certain details. It felt like a deliberate downgrade from the previous minifigures. The production capacity issue makes more sense to me than simple exclusivity (although it explains why those sets are the ones that benefit from the limited resources). But when you have other regular sets featuring dual molding and arm printing that are coming out at the same time, it seems like it is becoming more normal. And if that is the case, why not keep the details that were removed from those that had them a year ago?

[rollermonkey]

It IS a deliberate downgrade, and that has been the answer you have gotten here and in SW. Exclusive figures, particularly with more details, are included in high priced sets, for the reasons of increased desirability of the set and the figure that way, and because lower profit sets can't justify the higher costs associated with increased manufacturing steps on newer machines with lower volume capabilities.

You can always buy the figures separately on Bricklink at a premium, and sometimes for much cheaper on Bricks and Pieces.

In other words, just because they CAN make figures with greater detail, does not automatically mean that they will, even if you want them to.

If you want more detail, other companies more consistently provide that in non-superdeformed formats. Minifigs are supposed to be representations, not hyper-realistic recreations.

[Robianco]

I actually just remembered two figure who have recently had new figures released that don't feature arm printing while their older counterparts do... Bespin Guard and Greedo. Admittedly, they're not just the same figure but without the arm printing, but it does show that there are times when Lego have different priorities when it comes to figure production in a set.

[x105Black]

I would be interested to know why people chose to vote for the second option on the first question (keeping them as exclusives at a premium).

I would think that making them more available would be better for everyone in the end.

[Blondie-Wan]

I'd like to add an option to the poll for having fewer "upgraded", extra-realistic figures, since to me the less realistic versions may actually be more desirable.

Mostly, I just want them to stop constantly updating minifigures for "army builder" types when they already have perfectly fine minifigures for those characters.

[rollermonkey]

Because LEGO is already expensive for many people. Making the lowest price sets more expensive by default including the highest cost figures helps nobody but minifig collectors. It's not 'better for everyone in the end'.

[x105Black]

Because LEGO is already expensive for many people. Making the lowest price sets more expensive by default including the highest cost figures helps nobody but minifig collectors. It's not 'better for everyone in the end'.

Fair enough.

The cost of minifigure parts on Bricks & Pieces makes a normal minifigure a few bucks (USD). The cost of upgraded parts makes the minifigure cost closer to 5 bucks (USD). So it would likely add a couple of dollars to the overall cost of the set per minifigure (at least, until they are able to add capacity).