Custom printed Bricks form USA; Import problems in germany

[SeptemLego]

Hello,

today I would have recieved and order of http://citizenbrick.com.

They are specialized in printing and modifing offical lego bricks.

The customs officer (here in germany) told me that there may be a problem with importing custom lego bricks!

Now my parts (all offical lego parts) are shipped to a legal agent who works for the LEGO Group and has to check if thats true.

If he decilnes that items all will be destroyed!

Has someone similar experience here in europe or even in germany?

All Items from citizen brick are marked with the following sentence:

"This is not a LEGO® Product. These are re-used LEGO elements that have been repackaged or altered from their original form. LEGO is a trademark of the LEGO Group, which does not sponsor, authorize or endorse this product. The LEGO Group is not liable for any loss, injury or damage arising from the use or misuse of this product"

I´m really unsure right now about this because I think that should be perfectly legal.

I´m also afraid of legal consequences and also the total loss of the money for the set.

Greets,

[Stash2Sixx]

Contact CB with the exact documentation you got from customs ASAP! They may have dealt with this before.

[AmperZand]

There are a couple of important reasons why this check has to be made.

First, the German government needs to know what you are doing including what you are receiving in the post. You could be a dangerous person and only the state can ensure that you aren't. The German government, as everyone who has any knowledge of 20th century history knows, has an impeccable record of protecting its citizens.

The second reason is that if this and other checks weren't made, lots of custom officials (and others) wouldn't be required and would lose their jobs. And we couldn't have that, could we?

[SeptemLego]

I already contacted CB and as far as that they can tell import is no problem at all -> because they stated the products as modified non offical lego sets.

I´m very curious what the legal office is telling me.

[technical]

Wow, SeptemLego, I can't believe your government is that strict that they enforce copyright patents on a company based in another country.

AmperZand: I assume you're being sarcastic about German history.

[AmperZand]

AmperZand: I assume you're being sarcastic about German history.

Yes, of course. My previous post was entirely sarcastic for satirical reasons.

In all seriousness, if the same thing happened to me in the UK, I would not be best pleased. In fact, I'd be making a fuss to the media, pressure groups etc questioning why taxpayers' money was being wasted on unnecessary intrusions when there are so many more important priorities. I'm sure the same is true in Germany.

[dr_spock]

Wow, SeptemLego, I can't believe your government is that strict that they enforce copyright patents on a company based in another country.

AmperZand: I assume you're being sarcastic about German history.

Maybe someone filed an IP complaint in Germany against CB. Anything coming in from CB would be flagged by customs.

Or it could be the paperwork. Maybe CB included some extra goodies not documented.

[anothergol]

Here I'm lucky that the customs are only after the money, they generally don't check what's inside. When they can charge 15eur+21% of the total value by just applying a sticker, why would they bother to do more?

There must be a Lego lobby in germany that works with the customs to fight against fake minifigs, so that's understandable - nothing looks more like a fake than a custom printed one.

In all seriousness, if the same thing happened to me in the UK, I would not be best pleased. In fact, I'd be making a fuss to the media, pressure groups etc questioning why taxpayers' money was being wasted on unnecessary intrusions when there are so many more important priorities. I'm sure the same is true in Germany.

But it's not unnecessary, and probably applies to you as well - it's just there to make you pay VAT. So I guess that you must be paying over 20% on all your foreign orders too, unless the customs are lazy, which was the case here, depending on the country of origin.

Until 2015, here anything coming from Hong Kong was garanteed to be untaxed. I was assuming that -maybe- it's because HK was still british, thus "european". In any case, today pretty much everything is overtaxed.

The joys of customs.. you get an express package from another continent in like 3 days.. and then it sits for 4 weeks in a customs office.. they send you good old paper laters asking you to prove your purchase.. they wait more.. and they tax you for the "storage time" of your package :)

Edited January 19, 2016 by anothergol

[Stash2Sixx]

Curious if you have an update on this?

[AmperZand]

But it's not unnecessary, and probably applies to you as well - it's just there to make you pay VAT. So I guess that you must be paying over 20% on all your foreign orders too, unless the customs are lazy, which was the case here, depending on the country of origin.

Until 2015, here anything coming from Hong Kong was garanteed to be untaxed. I was assuming that -maybe- it's because HK was still british, thus "european". In any case, today pretty much everything is overtaxed.

There is no exemption in the UK that is specific to goods from Hong Kong. However, there is a threshold of £15 (US$21, Euro 19) for all goods from outside the EU beneath which there is no VAT. Above that threshold, there is duty of between 10 and 15% of the goods, postage, packing and insurance, plus VAT of 20% on the goods, postage, packing, insurance and duty (yes, you get taxed on the tax!) and an £8 (US$11, Euro 10) post office charge. If you go over the threshold, your total cost can easily be double what you expected. Import duties and any other kind of trade barrier impoverish both the sending nation and the receiving one, so they aren't just unnecessary, they're damaging. And VAT is a completely unnecessary tax. If a government wants to tax consumption (deleterious as that may be), the most efficient method is a sales tax, not a VAT.

But my objection was in relation to the OP's experience of goods being seized/delayed for possible IP theft. My guess is that the total of all bootleg LEGO - by which I mean infringements of TLG's IP rights - from the US to Germany is minuscule and has no appreciable impact on TLG and wouldn't even if there were no IP infringement checks. I suspect that even the effect of Chinese bootlegs on TLG in Europe overall is negligible. It may play large in the minds of AFOLs, but the real consequences to TLG are trivial. I reckon that they worry a lot more about legitimate competition such as Mattel.

Edited January 21, 2016 by AmperZand

[SeptemLego]

There are news:

The legal office checked the items altered by CB and declared them as OK. It took them about 6 days and regarding the customs guy they several phone calls to clear some details.

But overall this is totally legal to import.

Had to pay a lot of import fees but that´s an other thing ;).

[Stash2Sixx]

Wow! That's just nuts!

Glad you got your stuff though.

[anothergol]

There is no exemption in the UK that is specific to goods from Hong Kong. However, there is a threshold of £15 (US$21, Euro 19) for all goods from outside the EU beneath which there is no VAT. Above that threshold, there is duty of between 10 and 15% of the goods, postage, packing and insurance, plus VAT of 20% on the goods, postage, packing, insurance and duty (yes, you get taxed on the tax!) and an £8 (US$11, Euro 10) post office charge. If you go over the threshold, your total cost can easily be double what you expected. Import duties and any other kind of trade barrier impoverish both the sending nation and the receiving one, so they aren't just unnecessary, they're damaging. And VAT is a completely unnecessary tax. If a government wants to tax consumption (deleterious as that may be), the most efficient method is a sales tax, not a VAT.

Really, you have duty? Here it's only for specific stuff, like alcohol, perfume, but not toys (unless considered art).

How is VAT unnecessary? It's nearly the same as a sales tax, & to the consumer, the same.

You can of course expect a foreigner to already have applied it for you, and in some case, it has been, and you normally shouldn't be paying anything - but I've only seen this applied to virtual goods so far.

Both applied on import are a form of protectionism anyway. The duty may be a bad thing, but the VAT on import is like, to the state, a necessary form of protectionism. Or we would ALL be buying directly from outside, no?

Now where it's bad, it's that we are normally exempt of additional VAT when buying within Europe, however I'm now seeing german sellers applying the target country's own VAT, while if I was to buy in Germany and pass the border, that would be perfectly legal.

Those 10-25eur (I've seen EMS apply 25, I don't use them anymore, maybe they still do that) that the post puts in its pocket, now THAT is a complete ripoff. Because the post should already KNOW about that charge in advance, and it should be included in the shipping price. But then of course, their prices would look very bad. And it of course doesn't cost 25eur to fill a bunch of papers for the customs.

But my objection was in relation to the OP's experience of goods being seized/delayed for possible IP theft. My guess is that the total of all bootleg LEGO - by which I mean infringements of TLG's IP rights - from the US to Germany is minuscule and has no appreciable impact on TLG and wouldn't even if there were no IP infringement checks. I suspect that even the effect of Chinese bootlegs on TLG in Europe overall is negligible. It may play large in the minds of AFOLs, but the real consequences to TLG are trivial. I reckon that they worry a lot more about legitimate competition such as Mattel.

with that I agree, Lego shouldn't bother doing that, and it's even worse when you remember they stole in the first place

Edited January 22, 2016 by anothergol

[AmperZand]

Really, you have duty? Here it's only for specific stuff, like alcohol, perfume, but not toys (unless considered art).

Alcohol, perfume and cigarettes have no lower threshold in the UK, that is, there's duty on all purchases however small. Not everything is subject to duty though. Books aren't. But toys including LEGO are.

How is VAT unnecessary? It's nearly the same as a sales tax, & to the consumer, the same.

Sure, they're both consumption taxes, but that's where the similarity ends. VAT is levied on profits at every step of the production and supply chain. As a result, it's hugely expensive for the state to administer. As consumption taxes are designed to be cost neutral to the taxing authority, the level has to be significantly higher to yield the same revenue as a sales tax. Moreover, VAT is also costly for VAT-registered organisations to administer. And guess who pays that cost? Yes, the consumer in the form or higher prices.

The duty may be a bad thing, but the VAT on import is like, to the state, a necessary form of protectionism. Or we would ALL be buying directly from outside, no?

More but not all because there are all sorts of costs associated with buying from overseas (or outside the EU as the case may be). For example, there's extra postage and insurance; it takes more time; there are fewer or more complex legal protections; and it costs more to return items.

But there's no fundamental reason why a consumption tax is required at all. Until 1989, Japan didn't have one.

Now where it's bad, it's that we are normally exempt of additional VAT when buying within Europe, however I'm now seeing german sellers applying the target country's own VAT, while if I was to buy in Germany and pass the border, that would be perfectly legal.

If I understand correctly, you're being charged German VAT on goods imported from elsewhere in the EU that have already been taxed in their country of origin. That doesn't sound right at all. VAT in the EU is levied in the country where the sale takes place and that's it. So if I order LEGO from a store in Germany to me in the UK, I have to pay German VAT on my purchase but not UK VAT.

Edited January 26, 2016 by AmperZand

[anothergol]

Sure, they're both consumption taxes, but that's where the similarity ends. VAT is levied on profits at every step of the production and supply chain. As a result, it's hugely expensive for the state to administer. As consumption taxes are designed to be cost neutral to the taxing authority, the level has to be significantly higher to yield the same revenue as a sales tax. Moreover, VAT is also costly for VAT-registered organisations to administer. And guess who pays that cost? Yes, the consumer in the form or higher prices.

You make it sound like VAT is applied multiple times, but you do know that a company buying stuff deducts the VAT, so only the final one applies to the consumer. I don't see how this has a cost, the company deducts all of this from their taxes at the end of the year. More papers to track I guess, but no big deal.

More but not all because there are all sorts of costs associated with buying from overseas (or outside the EU as the case may be). For example, there's extra postage and insurance; it takes more time; there are fewer or more complex legal protections; and it costs more to return items.

and yet I'm still buying most of my toys outside, because even after everything applied, it's still cheaper (because the internet, & because my country's market for toys isn't big enough)

If I understand correctly, you're being charged German VAT on goods imported from elsewhere in the EU that have already been taxed in their country of origin. That doesn't sound right at all. VAT in the EU is levied in the country where the sale takes place and that's it. So if I order LEGO from a store in Germany to me in the UK, I have to pay German VAT on my purchase but not UK VAT.

no, it's charged once, but with the VAT of my country. If I buy from Amazon germany, I'm not taxed 19% but 21%. It's more common when you buy software, but with amazon it's on anything.

Also, & maybe related, if I buy 3 items from Amazon germany, it's possible that all 3 will be sent separately from 3 different countries (& Amazon still manages to ship for free, weirdly)

Edited January 26, 2016 by anothergol

[AmperZand]

You make it sound like VAT is applied multiple times, but you do know that a company buying stuff deducts the VAT...

I do know and in fact I said as much when I said "VAT is levied on profits" (emphasis added).

...so only the final one applies to the consumer. I don't see how this has a cost, the company deducts all of this from their taxes at the end of the year. More papers to track I guess, but no big deal.

It's a pretty big deal. A VAT-registered organisation has to dedicate non-trivial resources to managing VAT: accountants/book-keepers, legal teams/compliance, IT systems & IT admin to name some of the costs. Sure, you would have to dedicate resources to those functions anyway, but there is additional cost that's specific to VAT.

I used to have the UK tax authority's leaflet on when raisins are and are not subject to VAT. It runs to several pages. Imagine if you're a supermarket or in the supermarket production/supply chain and have to ensure that all of your products - including raisins - are charged at the right VAT rate or changed to ensure they comply with VAT rules. It's a significant cost which gets past to the consumer in higher prices.

And if you're a company producing and selling goods in international markets, you're disadvantaged if you have to account for VAT compared to competitors in jurisdictions that have a sales tax because of your extra costs.