Calling Volunteers! Eslandola Vs. Mardier - Build Off

[Maxim I]

Allright, time for some points on an I,

1) sistershipping is fine. Even IC and as seen in a historical content.

2) I don't know what the setting was, but maybe our ESL leaders choosed to hunt pirates and they found Sea Rats (who are sailing under a pirate flag).

3) was this a diplomatic stupidity of ESL, well yes maybe, but don't forget the Sea Rats choosed to raid our villages as well.... Nobody of the other factions is complaining about this...

4) I know there are no rules in the Sea Rats faction, but please take your time to read the rules. You had 3 Royal fleet warships, you lost one so now you may have a new third warship for free (even a class 5 HA if I am correct)! As a faction is always allowed to have the minimum of three warships!

Edited April 15, 2016 by Maxim I

[Jacob Nion]

Allright, time for some points on an I,

1) sistershipping is fine. Even IC and as seen in a historical content.

2) I don't know what the setting was, but maybe our ESL leaders choosed to hunt pirates and they found Sea Rats (who are sailing under a pirate flag).

3) was this a diplomatic stupidity of ESL, well yes maybe, but don't forget the Sea Rats choosed to raid our villages as well.... Nobody of the other factions is complaining about this...

4) I know there are no rules in the Sea Rats faction, but please take your time to read the rules. You had 3 Royal fleet warships, you lost one so now you may have a new third warship for free (even a class 5 HA if I am correct)! As a faction is always allowed to have the minimum of three warships!

4) As far as I know this rule is not yet made public. Maybe most people around here already know, but I can only trust the rules I can find in the index. And so far nobody has offered us a new faction ship. And I know that MKJosha asked about that.

On a sidenote, the rules say that an NPC ship that was captured must be moced before it can be used. So am I right that the faction ship is a NPC ship?

Nonetheless my suggestion would be to except the standard three faction ships from capturing. If every faction always gets a new faction ship if one is lost, it doesn't matter to them if they lose it. But on the other hand it would be an infinite ship generator for other factions/NPC. even if it is unlikely, it could happen that a faction loses one or all faction ships, gets new ones, loses them again and so on. And somebody else would get a bunch of free licenses for cllass 5 ships.

Or even worse, Bloody Bill captures faction ships, can use them immediately because he doesn't have to moc them, uses those ships to capture more ships and so on. Soon you would have an invincible NPC bot.

[Maxim I]

4) As far as I know this rule is not yet made public. Maybe most people around here already know, but I can only trust the rules I can find in the index. And so far nobody has offered us a new faction ship. And I know that MKJosha asked about that.

On a sidenote, the rules say that an NPC ship that was captured must be moced before it can be used. So am I right that the faction ship is a NPC ship?

Nonetheless my suggestion would be to except the standard three faction ships from capturing. If every faction always gets a new faction ship if one is lost, it doesn't matter to them if they lose it. But on the other hand it would be an infinite ship generator for other factions/NPC. even if it is unlikely, it could happen that a faction loses one or all faction ships, gets new ones, loses them again and so on. And somebody else would get a bunch of free licenses for cllass 5 ships.

Or even worse, Bloody Bill captures faction ships, can use them immediately because he doesn't have to moc them, uses those ships to capture more ships and so on. Soon you would have an invincible NPC bot.

On the first page of the Corrington thread, one can find this:

Naval Resources

All nations start with naval forces to use. They will Always have their minimum, even if these vessels are lost in combats, escort missions, or taken by pirates.

Each faction has three Heavy Sloops (Class 5 A 2 in the ship list chart). We are not required to MOC these three ships.

When it comes to naval rules, I (hope I) know the rules as I am keeper of the Ship Index

Note: if a faction (like Eslandola after last traderun) has 2 class 5 HA and 1 class 3A in their royal fleet, that faction can not get the free class 5HA as they already have 3 ships

Edited April 15, 2016 by Maxim I

[Bregir]

Allright, time for some points on an I,

1) sistershipping is fine. Even IC and as seen in a historical content.

2) I don't know what the setting was, but maybe our ESL leaders choosed to hunt pirates and they found Sea Rats (who are sailing under a pirate flag).

3) was this a diplomatic stupidity of ESL, well yes maybe, but don't forget the Sea Rats choosed to raid our villages as well.... Nobody of the other factions is complaining about this...

4) I know there are no rules in the Sea Rats faction, but please take your time to read the rules. You had 3 Royal fleet warships, you lost one so now you may have a new third warship for free (even a class 5 HA if I am correct)! As a faction is always allowed to have the minimum of three warships!

1) Sistershipping is allowed, yes. Been discussed plentifully. (Like a lot of other things - we are a sad bunch of democrats! )

2) Eslandola should be able to predict the consequences of their actions. I call piracy - you attacked a neutral faction. And it wasn't just a rogue TC who did this. It was the Crown. Casus belli, anyone?

3) Well, I suggest you bring that raid up with the Sea Rats courts. If they are anything as efficient as the Eslandian courts, it is very likely you will get a reply early next year!

4) Yup.

[Fuzzy MacFuzz]

Sorry but I really think this whole build off mechanic was a great idea but it clearly hasn't worked and should now be reconsidered. Unless i've missed something, Eslandola now get a build off against KB! I respect KB's spirit but as he is only allowed a single MOC he can't win.

I think there are three reasons why this hasn't worked, and may not work in future:

1) Totally unequal rewards - 450DBs of ship license for Eslandola vs 30 dbs for the Mardian team (now resolved)

2) No Mardian players so no Mardian patriotic spirit (remains unresolved)

3) When this was launched, everyone was already very busy with their own builds and stories (remains unresolved)

One other point; I think the current system (as I understand it anyway) is unfair on the Sea Rats. It assumes they are a nation whereas in reality they are more like an anti-nation. Effectively they are in a permanent state of war with the other nations, but it seems they aren't allowed to break 'the rules of war' which they haven't agreed to anyway. How can a team whose raison d'etre is piracy then be taken to court for piracy? Or take another nation to court? Piracy is, by defintion, illegal, but we need to allow/encourage pirates to do it anyway, even if that's painful for the rest of us and upsets our plans - that's kind of the point. I hope the new MRCA will make piracy (including land raids) a much more lucrative option vis-a-vis trade or I think the Sea Rats will struggle for a while and then sputter out. Currently much the most successful pirate is an NPC, that can't be right? And we need a mechanism whereby the nations can't just use their power to crush the Sea Rats as Eslandola seems to have done (yes, their action was totally understandable, but...).

Edited April 15, 2016 by Fuzzy MacFuzz

[Bregir]

@Fuzzy

I am not entirely averse to your sentiment, but will just add that all IC actions in an RPG like this will have IC consequences, for both Sea Rats and Eslandola.

And as the Sea Rats is not a Nation, using one Sea Rat's actions as an excuse for actions against unrelated Sea Rats conducting lawful ventures is in my mind an unprovoked aggression against a neutral faction. And thus either criminal, or an act of war.

[Jacob Nion]

Thank you fuzzy, that is exactly my point, just far more eloquent.

Captain Morgan had to rethink his engagement for the Eslandolan course.

He worries about his reputation when fighting for a nation that encourages piracy against merchant fleets.

Therefore he has taken the view that L'olius' action of privateering deserve his support.

Benjamin Morgan revokes his contract with Eslandola and joins Mardier.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Jacob Nion

[Maxim I]

@Fuzzy

I am not entirely averse to your sentiment, but will just add that all IC actions in an RPG like this will have IC consequences, for both Sea Rats and Eslandola.

And as the Sea Rats is not a Nation, using one Sea Rat's actions as an excuse for actions against unrelated Sea Rats conducting lawful ventures is in my mind an unprovoked aggression against a neutral faction. And thus either criminal, or an act of war.

You know I am not always agreeing with the Eslandolan actions taken by our leaders.

But I don't see the line in here.

Sea Rats attacked one of our villages (they aimed for Bardo!), but everyone is upset because Eslandola attacked at the same time their fleet.

For me it is the same.

But let me make this clear, these are actions not all Eslandolans are supporting (MAESTRO wasn't supporting it at least), just like not all Sea Rats were supporting the Bardo raid...

----------

edit: to be clear, I am against this initiative because it is unfair. L'Olius captured in the past more than our 2 ships... A system like the auction is much more fair.

edit 2: Especially warships should stay with him who captured it and added to their fleet!

edit 3: to be complete, this is the list of vessels L'Olius captured:

• Captain L'Olius Fleet
  
  • Cell - Class 2T - captured Oleon Vessel
    
  • Fénix (by Phadeout) - Class 2 T - Captured Eslandola Vessel
    
  • Queen of Terelli - Class 5 A - Heavy Sloop - Captured Eslandola Vessel
    
  • Wave of Knowledge (by Pombe) - Class 2 T Xebec - Captured Sea Rats Vessel
    

As you can see, also Oleon and the Sea Rats lost a ship to him

Edited April 15, 2016 by Maxim I

[Fuzzy MacFuzz]

Sea Rats attacked one of our villages (they aimed for Bardo!), but everyone is upset because Eslandola attacked at the same time their fleet.

For me it is the same. (Maxim)

Maxim, I agreee with you, that's why I said:

we need a mechanism whereby the nations can't just use their power to crush the Sea Rats as Eslandola seems to have done (yes, their action was totally understandable, but...).

Currently in a straight fight any nation will always crush the sea Rats, so the Sea Rats will simply stop these kinds of raids, and indeed all piracy, to the detriment of the game.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Fuzzy MacFuzz

[Bregir]

I disagree that there should be a different mechanism for sea rats - I would much rather have this played out In Character.

If the sea rats make enemies of us all, they will be crushed. End of story.

But we need to remember that the sea rats are a group of independent agents, so judging a faction based on a few individuals' actions is unfair. Especially since no one seems interested in asking the sea rats (IC) to make an explanation, or make things right.

The right reaction would be to put a bounty on those raiders' heads. And perhaps we need a bounty hunter mission fir the MRCA to allow cruisers to target specific enemies. Should be open for all, though, not just sea rats.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Bregir

[Maxim I]

I disagree that there should be a different mechanism for sea rats - I would much rather have this played out In Character.

If the sea rats make enemies of us all, they will be crushed. End of story.

But we need to remember that the sea rats are a group of independent agents, so judging a faction based on a few individuals' actions is unfair. Especially since no one seems interested in asking the sea rats (IC) to make an explanation, or make things right.

The right reaction would be to put a bounty on those raiders' heads. And perhaps we need a bounty hunter mission fir the MRCA to allow cruisers to target specific enemies. Should be open for all, though, not just sea rats.

Yes and no:

Now you are saying to all sea rats: go ahead and raid our villages, we will not attack you...

There is a Sea Rats king and they even got a group channel. So their actions can be considered as "granted permission by their king".

If they attacked a Corrington settlement, I am sure everyone in Corrington would want revenge on the first and best Sea Rat they come across.

I agree there should be a thing as: "Bounty Hunter" so we can send a fleet to L'Olius to get our ships back and to stop his piracy terror. That would be a much better alternative than this build-off.

[Kolonialbeamter]

Benjamin Morgan revokes his contract with Eslandola and joins Mardier.

Jacob! You chose... wisely

It's two vs. two now. Come on, people, join the fun!

[Bregir]

@Maxim:

If the Sea Rats make an official attack on Corrington, we will consider it as an aggression. If an individual free agent conducts an attack, we will require justice and an explanation, and will then consider whether this is satisfactory. We are a civilised nation, and believe in order and justice, not just our bank accounts!

You are not to tell us what we would do!

@KB:

I am pressed for minifigs, but should have the bricks for a small entry. (20x20 should be possible)

If we can figure something out, I would be interested in joining the Mardier side.

[Jacob Nion]

Bounty hunter mission sounds great. That way we could bring individual players to justice instead of threaten a whole faction. That would end this whole discussion. Sea rats could try to attack the Eslandolans who captured the 5A and great scott, Eslandolans could try to catch the sea rats who tried to raid bardo. And since there's a bounter, players of all faction should be allowed to go on that hunt. Maybe we could do some sort of announcement thread where the current bounty hangs out (also a good idea for all minichallenges, instead of only posting them in a settlement thread).

Every player would have to decide if he risks a fight against the accused player. I don't think that there would be a large number of bounty hunters from the start.

I guess there could be a special predatotr raid function function to only attack player with a bounty on their head.

[Bregir]

Well, Jacob - If the sea rats attack the Eslandian National ships, bounty or not, I think you will find the Eslandian King will respond. I mean, a bounty is not a carte blanche - you will still need to consider the consequences.

But if someone in a faction has gone rogue, it is likely that they will not be protected. In some cases, however, officials channels might be better.

So some issues would still best be solved by diplomacy, which I think is perfect. (And I still maintain that the Eslandolan prizes taken from Sea Rat traders are unlawful.)

And of course, someone needs to have the gold to put up a bounty!

Edited April 15, 2016 by Bregir

[Kolonialbeamter]

@Bregir:

[Jacob Nion]

It's of course up to the leaders to decide if they want to risk a war by supporting criminals in their own ranks. Bounty should come from the factons. If Eslandola (or a single trading company) wants a pirates head they have to pay.

[Maxim I]

... (And I still maintain that the Eslandolan prizes taken from Sea Rat traders are unlawful.) ...

Let's just recapitulate:

Eslandola lost:

- King of Mardier (class 4A)

Eslandola gets:

- Great Scott (class 3A), once owned by DR.Spock

- Wallrus (class 5HA)

Sea Rats lost:

- Great Scott (class 3A), once owned by Dr.Spock

- Wallrus (class 5HA)

Sea Rats get:

- King of Mardier (class 4A)

- New warship (class 5HA) if they give the King of Mardier to Dr.Spock as compensation of his lost ship.

So in the end, it is even a win situation for Sea Rats as Dr-Spock has a bigger warship now.

(I do have to admit he still needs to MOC it)

[Fuzzy MacFuzz]

Looks like I posted too soon when I said this contest was one-sided and should be called off; the game is afoot after all! Well done KB, Bregir and Jacob for having a go, I'm looking forward to your MOCs!

Edited April 15, 2016 by Fuzzy MacFuzz

[Bregir]

@KB:

Corrington will supply an advocate for the Mardier cause, and it might be me, if no one else pops up, but we will keep you updated!

@Jacob:

I suppose any individual, group, TC or faction with gold can put up a bounty on anyone. As long as they are ready to face the consequences!

@Maxim:

This is not a question of balance - this is a question of what is right and wrong IC. And in my IC mind, your act was clear piracy. The fact that your captains didn't do that piracy very well is no excuse!

"Well, we might have been criminal, but we were VERY bad at it... So it is ok, right?"

Edited April 15, 2016 by Bregir

[Maxim I]

@Maxim:

This is not a question of balance - this is a question of what is right and wrong IC. And in my IC mind, your act was clear piracy. The fact that your captains didn't do that piracy very well is no excuse!

"Well, we might have been criminal, but we were VERY bad at it... So it is ok, right?"

I understand, but still, IC, how can you accuse Eslandola of piracy against pirates????

Again, it was not my act nor decission. So it were not my captains. I have nothing to do with the choices Eslandola makes, as they are made without my knowledge

I am just finding this whole discussion amusing as Sea Rats are pirates... And I am sure the raiding was just the beginning of more raidings to follow...

[Bregir]

Again, not all sea rats are pirates. Being a pirate is defined by the act of piracy.

So far, most sea rats have acted only as independent agents, who does not wish to be affiliated with the interests of a particular nation.

So calling them all pirates, well, I would be insulted, and consider calling you to the field of honour to duel it out...;)

[Maxim I]

Again, not all sea rats are pirates. Being a pirate is defined by the act of piracy.

So far, most sea rats have acted only as independent agents, who does not wish to be affiliated with the interests of a particular nation.

So calling them all pirates, well, I would be insulted, and consider calling you to the field of honour to duel it out...;)

The Sea Rats

Nickname: Pirates

Colors: Black, Yellow, Medium Blue

Flag:

I rest my case :p

[Bregir]

... Being a pirate is defined by the act of piracy...

;)

Edited April 15, 2016 by Bregir

[Jacob Nion]

Isn't this the pirates forum? So technically, we are all pirates. Even those who do only red/blue coat ships.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Jacob Nion