BuWizz - High Performance LEGO Power Functions Controller and Battery

[pankov]

59 minutes ago, Zerobricks said:

There should be a command in the API, but currently I'm unable to check which exactly, since I'm recovering from surgery... 

I wish you speedy recovery and hoping that everything is and will be fine.

Is there any chance we can get this information from somewhere else? Do you know if the official support can/will be willing to help if I contact them?

 

56 minutes ago, aFrInaTi0n said:

@pankov: Also not 100% sure on this, but from my previous researches on LiPO topics it seems to be possible to add another chemical in the production, which is hindering a battery to degrade. those chemicals themself will degrade in the first discharges&charges.. but currently having no sources at hand.. just mentioning this may be a common practice for lipo producers..

hmm ... this sounds interesting. To be honest I've never heard of such a thing but I'm in no way expert on the subject so might definitely be a possibility.

[aFrInaTi0n]

same here, so please consider anything in that regard like "may be absolutely wrong" - I am also no expert in that field!

to add, ChatGPT (fresh prompt, just with the open question with the intention of it not hallucinating towards the asked question if asked specifically..):

 

Spoiler

What possibilities vendors of LiPO batteries have to save the produced units from degrading while not being sold yet?

Spoiler

Vendors of lithium polymer (LiPo) batteries have a few effective strategies to prevent degradation during storage before they're sold. LiPo batteries, like other lithium-ion cells, are prone to chemical aging that can result in capacity loss, swelling, or even failure if not stored properly. Here are some common methods that vendors use to maximize shelf life:

1. Storage at Optimal State of Charge (SOC)

• Partial Charge: Storing LiPo batteries at around 40–60% SOC is standard practice, as it minimizes the stress on the battery cells. Fully charged or deeply discharged states accelerate degradation.
• Automated Charging Process: Some manufacturers apply automated charging systems to ensure batteries are stored at this optimal SOC during production and shipping.

2. Temperature-Controlled Storage

• Cool Storage Environment: High temperatures accelerate the electrolyte degradation process. Vendors often store batteries at 15–25°C (59–77°F), with some going as low as 0–10°C (32–50°F) if feasible.
• Humidity Control: Maintaining a low-humidity environment can reduce corrosion and minimize the potential for moisture-related failures in packaging, particularly in humid regions.

3. Vacuum-Sealed or Inert Gas Packaging

• Vacuum-Sealing: Vacuum-sealed pouches or containers help reduce exposure to air and moisture, which can degrade the battery’s electrolyte over time. Many vendors ship LiPo batteries in vacuum-sealed packaging for this reason.
• Inert Gas Packaging: Some vendors use nitrogen or other inert gases inside packaging to create an oxygen-free environment, which can slow down oxidation and other chemical reactions inside the battery.

4. Use of Additives in Electrolytes

• Electrolyte Stabilizers: Many manufacturers add stabilizing compounds or additives to the electrolyte that slow down the rate of degradation reactions. These additives can prolong shelf life and improve performance retention.
• Customized Electrolyte Formulas: High-quality LiPo cells may have custom electrolyte mixtures designed specifically for shelf stability, which reduce self-discharge and slow down aging.

5. Cycle Maintenance during Long-Term Storage

• Periodic Recharging: For batteries that are in storage for extended periods, some vendors employ periodic recharging routines. These routines involve rebalancing or "refreshing" the cells to ensure they stay within an optimal SOC range, preventing deep discharge or overcharge conditions.

6. Intelligent Inventory Management

• First-In, First-Out (FIFO) System: Many vendors use FIFO inventory strategies, ensuring that older stock is shipped out first, reducing the time any single battery spends in storage.
• Digital Monitoring Systems: Some large vendors or distributors use automated systems to track the age, SOC, and storage conditions of individual battery units. This helps in maintaining optimal storage conditions and reducing loss from degradation.

7. Battery Management Systems (BMS) for Smart Cells

• Integrated BMS: For larger or high-end LiPo packs (like those used in drones or electric vehicles), an onboard BMS can monitor and maintain SOC and temperature. Some BMS systems even alert vendors or customers to recharge if the SOC drops below safe storage levels.

Each of these strategies involves balancing cost, complexity, and shelf life requirements, but combined, they can significantly enhance the shelf stability of LiPo batteries, ensuring that customers receive units in optimal condition.

 

Excerpt:
 

4. Use of Additives in Electrolytes

• Electrolyte Stabilizers: Many manufacturers add stabilizing compounds or additives to the electrolyte that slow down the rate of degradation reactions. These additives can prolong shelf life and improve performance retention.
• Customized Electrolyte Formulas: High-quality LiPo cells may have custom electrolyte mixtures designed specifically for shelf stability, which reduce self-discharge and slow down aging.

Edited October 25, 2024 by aFrInaTi0n

[Zerobricks]

5 hours ago, pankov said:

I wish you speedy recovery and hoping that everything is and will be fine.

Is there any chance we can get this information from somewhere else? Do you know if the official support can/will be willing to help if I contact them?

Thank you.

I am THE support person for technical issues...

I found the command:

0xA1 Activate shelf mode
Activate the shelf mode in the device immediately. This will disconnect the battery from the device
and will require the user to connect the charger in order to wake-up the device.
Byte Function / value
0 (command) 0xA1 – Shelf mode

Try sending it via nRF Connect.

I will remind the app dev to add this to the app.

[Toastie]

4 hours ago, aFrInaTi0n said:

4. Use of Additives in Electrolytes

That is all cool and nice, but this is for "many years storage". Not "6 months not used". However, 6 months without charging it from time to time and having a circuit that is constantly sucking current, well, will drain the LiPo on that timescale. It always depends on the circuit of course. Some need more than others. No idea what the BW sucks, when turned "off".

Partial charging (well, better close to full, but not fully full ;) is one good thing to do when storing a LiPo. But the most important thing though is getting it off from any circuitry. In reasonably well-designed devices, actually "inside" reasonably well-designed LiPos, there is always a protection circuit preventing deep discharging, overloading etc. I just arbitrarily visited GitHub for some info: https://github.com/xlfe/conservative-lipo-protection. That's also (very small) electronics usually hidden under some wrapping foil around the otherwise ugly LiPo cells, but once the thing tripped due to deep discharging, you need to know how to resurrect it - and @Zerobricks is at it, I guess

Best,
Thorsten

[aFrInaTi0n]

@Toastie those Electrolytes are just added at production and dissolve themselfes, so I am aware this effect is a goner after the batteries have been started to be used. :)

 

[Toastie]

3 hours ago, aFrInaTi0n said:

those Electrolytes are just added at production and dissolve themselfes, so I am aware this effect is a goner after the batteries have been started to be used. :)

I know We collaborate with some of the folks making them. This dissolution is nevertheless a somewhat matter of (currently little) concern, as the stuff added dissolves within the battery to presumably - and in my world hopefully - something not causing any harm some years down the road. Or as they call it - in the long run .

Well, we'll see ... so far, resurrection of apparently dead LiPos is of central concern in this discussion.

Good night and all the best,
Thorsten 

[pankov]

@Zerobricks,
Is that BLE function ... and others ... publicly documented somewhere?

I tried nRF bit to be honest I got a bit lost there.

Can you help me a bit? Here is a screenshot from the app with all available functions. Is the shelf mode one at all visible?

 

For example I tried changing the name of the device via 0x2A00 and despite nRF showing success in writing the value the BuWizz app kept on showing the old one...

Does anyone have any idea what I might be doing wrong?
 

[Zerobricks]

I'm not totally sure, can you send a support ticket and I will FWD it to the app dev?

Thanks

Edited October 29, 2024 by Zerobricks

[pankov]

I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but how do I send a support ticket?

Edited October 30, 2024 by pankov

[pankov]

@Zerobricks,

Any news on the app update that will include the option to the BuWizz3 in deep sleep mode?

Or on how exactly we can do the same ourselves via the options in nRF?

 

And finally - does anyone know how to send a ticket to BuWizz support?

[Zerobricks]

On 10/29/2024 at 8:35 AM, pankov said:

@Zerobricks,
Is that BLE function ... and others ... publicly documented somewhere?

I tried nRF bit to be honest I got a bit lost there.

Can you help me a bit? Here is a screenshot from the app with all available functions. Is the shelf mode one at all visible?

 

For example I tried changing the name of the device via 0x2A00 and despite nRF showing success in writing the value the BuWizz app kept on showing the old one...

Does anyone have any idea what I might be doing wrong?
 

 

On 10/29/2024 at 2:33 PM, pankov said:

I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but how do I send a support ticket?

 

48 minutes ago, pankov said:

@Zerobricks,

And finally - does anyone know how to send a ticket to BuWizz support?

Everything is available at the support page:

https://buwizz.com/sl/support/

https://buwizz.com/contact-support/

[gyenesvi]

9 hours ago, pankov said:

does anyone know how to send a ticket to BuWizz support?

I have the opposite problem, does anyone know how to receive response from Buwizz support? :))))

I had a few questions that I sent and were unanswered in the past. This one I sent lately and no response, so I ask it here as well maybe someone has experience with this.

It's about control of PU motors in the Buwizz 3 protocol. I can see that there's a separate command (0x31) for advanced control of PU motors and that the interpretation of values depends on port state. I can also see that command 0x50 is used to set the port functions, and that some default values are selected for known PU motors when switching between PU servo modes. I guess those are the PID parameter values listed in the section "PID controller structure"?
I also see that there's a command (0x52) to set the servo reference input (speed and position, depending on port mode). What does that reference input mean exactly? I guess for position servo, it sets the reference value to the current motor position, so that the current position becomes 0, is that right? But most importantly, I'd be interested in speed servo control. What does the reference value mean in this case? I guess the speed servo function needs a reference to know what the max possible speed is, and all other values are interpreted with respect to that? So how can I set up speed control to work properly? What value should I put there? Do I need to run the motors at max speed (inside my model under load) and set that speed to a certain value, which will mean 100% for my model, and all other values to command 0x31 will be intepreted with respect to that? Or did I get it wrong and the setup process should be something different?

Another question is whether this function is available in the Buwizz App? I haven't found anything related. Precise slow speed control would be very useful functionality for the truck trial competition in the Buwizz camp in 2025. Is it possible to add it until then?

[aFrInaTi0n]

I wouldn't rely on them anyhow anymore after their vows they broke severely... This company and their products can not be recommended to anybody frommy experiences.. The hardware product itself is a nice thing, but their software stack, support and also their public relations is just one of the worst I have seen.. esp. if its a niche market, like they are in... normally companies are performing very well in those early stages - but I have the strong feeling they were more interested in high life than further working on their product, if one takes a look at their YT profile for the last two years..

Just nobody wants to see their CEO throwing a Set with buwizz down 2 floors to see "if it can fly" - which obvious answer is no...

Sorry but for me they lost their sanity since long already, I can just be angry at them (or myself) for buying their lies (and product in consequence)!

Edited November 15, 2024 by aFrInaTi0n

[Sven J]

Hi all,

today, whe I opened the BuWizz app on my tablet, 6 out of 8 profiles were gone for no apparent reason (when I last used the app 2 months ago, they were still there).
No big deal, I thought, as I had exported and saved all profiles on my laptop. So I copied them to my tablet and tried to import them into the BuWizz app, but all I got was a message "There was a problem importing the project".
Does anyone have an idea what happened here and how I can restore my profiles? Reinstalling the app didn't work.

[aFrInaTi0n]

@Sven J Also having lately issues with my profiles which were created some month ago - for me all the controls are still visible in the configuration of the profile, but as soon as I start the profile, non are shown...
I haven't tried any further but I guess it could be a try worth to completely delete the app data+cache from the android app center and then retry with reimporting / recreating them fresh.

I would also recommend to write them an email with an complaint, otherwise they may still think they should focus on advertising their faulty software stack on exhibitions..

[Sven J]

16 hours ago, aFrInaTi0n said:

I guess it could be a try worth to completely delete the app data+cache

That doesn't work for me. The old profiles can't even be imported to a device where the BuWizz app was installed for the first time yesterday.

16 hours ago, aFrInaTi0n said:

otherwise they may still think they should focus on advertising their faulty software stack on exhibitions..

I wouldn't express it that harshly. Apart from some - finally solved - firmware update issues with the very first BuWizz's years ago (2017?), I never had any problems and was very happy with them.
Until yesterday... But still I hope that there's a solution.

Edited November 18, 2024 by Sven J

[aFrInaTi0n]

I am not harsh as they are speaking about kicking their app development up since two years but basically NOTHING happened since then. Still waiting for some elemantal functions like a failsafe shutdown for lost connections (its no fun when the connection is lost and your rc model is just further accelerating with 28++ kph into a curb / obstacle).

I am just fed up with their behavior & statements like "but now we are really doing X or Y" just to disappoint people with not delivering anything. Happy you still have hopes left there :D

[Ro0llo]

On 10/23/2024 at 6:30 PM, aFrInaTi0n said:

As also Buwizz may have limited stock on the replacements batteries, which would render the Buwizz units completely useless.

Its a generic battery, not made to order so you can always buy them here; https://www.globalsources.com/Lithium-polymer/High-rate-battery-1180913679p.htm. You just have to order a few of them, minimum order 2000

[msk6003]

I find this on buwizz shop. @Zerobricks Are you have spec of this new motor?

BuWizz Micro Motor | BuWizz | Bluetooth® remote control for LEGO® models

[aFrInaTi0n]

5 hours ago, Ro0llo said:

Its a generic battery, not made to order so you can always buy them here; https://www.globalsources.com/Lithium-polymer/High-rate-battery-1180913679p.htm. You just have to order a few of them, minimum order 2000

I know, I know - I think I found the minimum order quantity was around 1k units for the offer I found... but we can easily share our efforts, I take 2-4 units, you the remaining "little leftover quantity"?! That would be really appreciated :D

[Ro0llo]

1 hour ago, aFrInaTi0n said:

I know, I know - I think I found the minimum order quantity was around 1k units for the offer I found... but we can easily share our efforts, I take 2-4 units, you the remaining "little leftover quantity"?! That would be really appreciated :D

We can build a real electrical car out of the left overs I think.

The interesting part is that this battery (which is the one I found exactly in my unit) only has a 1.0 C-rate, meaning its build to deliver 0.8A without considerable voltage drops or reduction of rated lifespan. Internal resistance is 180mOhm meaning that if you draw 4A from it (with 2x BuWizz and stock current limits) you are looking at LEAST a 5.71% voltage drop (using ΔV=I×R in practice the drop is more). At least explains why the battery level is diving down in the app when going maximal throttle (battery level is measured by reading out its voltage, 3s lipo is full at 12,6 volt and ‘empty’ at 9.9 volt😁 You can even get below the critical battery discharge protection point and shut off the whole unit doing this. A battery with a 1.0 C-rating is not made for purposes like this. Actual RC lipo batteries have C-ratings of 60 for example and are able to deliver 120A without problems.

What they shoud do to work around it is to dynamicly adjust the max output current accordingly to the battery charge to make sure they don’t hit the discharge protection. So at max battery level its 2A per channel, at 80% 1,5A, 65% 1A at 50% battery 0,8A per channel etc —> I have not calculated these values just some examples, but its not that hard to calculate it.

I’m running my unit on 1A per channel which is okay I guess but would love some more performance on high charge without to risk of shutting down my device when going full throttle on a battery with 60% charge left.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Ro0llo

[2GodBDGlory]

6 hours ago, msk6003 said:

I find this on buwizz shop. @Zerobricks Are you have spec of this new motor?

BuWizz Micro Motor | BuWizz | Bluetooth® remote control for LEGO® models

Wow! Interesting to see what appears to be a new product launch, without any marketing or mention of it anywhere I've been looking! Looks like a clever form factor

Edited December 2, 2024 by 2GodBDGlory

[Toastie]

20 minutes ago, 2GodBDGlory said:

Looks like a clever form factor

Almost like 9V PF style CubicMotors from Tenka

Best,
Thorsten 

[aFrInaTi0n]

27 minutes ago, 2GodBDGlory said:

Wow! Interesting to see what appears to be a new product launch, without any marketing or mention of it anywhere I've been looking! Looks like a clever form factor

The micromotor Idea seems to be just copied from the one whose name shall not be spoken + CaDAs micro motors.. and yes, seems like a 3d print prototype to me - not like a finished product.

 

@Ro0llo Where is Elon if one needs him for taking our "little overhead"?! :D

Edited December 2, 2024 by aFrInaTi0n

[Zerobricks]

6 hours ago, msk6003 said:

I find this on buwizz shop. @Zerobricks Are you have spec of this new motor?

BuWizz Micro Motor | BuWizz | Bluetooth® remote control for LEGO® models

For now I can say it has 180 RPM at 9V and enough torque to skip the large LA clutch at 12V.