MARDIER COLONY La Isla de Medio

[Capt Wolf]

Just now, Kwatchi said:

I have had a busy (Canadian) Thanksgiving weekend so I just got back to read what has happened here, and maybe it is too late to suggest anything.  Perhaps the solution can be the same as the one used during my ill-fated raid of Bardo as the situation was rather similar.

After the squatter colony rejection, my brother and I decided to go full on piratey and raid a colony, and went searching for one undefended by a fort; 'cuz fair fights are boring.  This was complicated by the fact the fort building contest was going on at the time, so we were watching the forums like hawks to see what others were doing.  Waiting to the very last minute to put in our MCRA we picked the only colony with a write-up that did not list a fort: Bardo.  The problem of course was that Bardo actually has two medium forts that weren't listed anywhere (still aren't actually), and those invisible forts were going to cut our two class 2As to shreds obviously if the raid went forward.  Cue sad trumpet sound. The solution that was arrived upon by the BoBS leadership was to shift the target to Tarlo (a Mardier NPC town) and we went with it because it struck us as pretty funny at the time.

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/129728-sr-mcra-mar-16-the-other-true-tale-of-the-sacking-of-tarlo/#entry2533347

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/129616-sr-mcra-mar-16-the-true-tale-of-the-sacking-of-tarlo/#entry2532618

So perhaps the solution is just that simple; "Eslandolan navigators got their coordinates wrong and invaded the wrong Island".  That saves the builds already put in place and a stereotype of bumbling merchants can be created. :)

In the end, if I'd have stopped building when I had an EGS set-back, I likely would have been quitting monthly at this point ('cuz my luck seems to be non-existent; I enjoy whinging about being the unluckiest pirate though ).  But I have fun through a hobby involving puttering around with bricks too much to let some made up e-monopoly money get me down. 

My 2 dBs

Kwatchi, first, Happy Canadian Thanksgiving!

Second, I think you have an extremely strong point. I have a plan B to suggest that I'm circulating in a PM at the moment that is kind of like this, but different. I want to see Eslandola reaction to it (and Ska's reaction to recent posts) before I present it, though. But I fully agree that I will not let misunderstandings like this stop me from building and playing the game! Thanks!

[Sir Stig]

Whoa... I have been reading through all relevant threads for the last hours. Capt Wolf summed it up nicely. I also have decades of pen and paper RPG and game master experience, and we have ourselves a series of unfortunate events here. Let's remember that everyone can make mistakes. Both sides have made errors here, much of it because communications have failed. The timing of information made this a real mess, and I think that is much of the reason why many Eslandolans are upset. I realize how tough it is to see lots of work not unfold like planned, because of unexpected moves by the players. Let's try to keep our heads cool, even if our hearts are burning.

Operation KMA inspired greatly and added fuel to BoBs. It felt like this was the event that truly launched BoBs to the next level. Please don't let that effect be thwarted and washed away. Blatant rulebreaking should not be rewarded, But great initiative should. So a compromise from both sides are in order. I think a good solution may be to find a way to include the lore of KMA and Fuerte Unido. Rewrite around it, perhaps start some talks to arrange a truce (at least temporary) between Eslandola and Mardier (thank you Phred for the IC support!). It feels like a No Go for Fuerte Unido will break the fun more than a compromise will break the game. I don't know the plans for island 11, so I don't know how much it will impact future events. I hope it is possible to find a way here. We can come with suggestions, but without knowing we can not pick the best solution. I am sure Eslandolans can accept steps that have to be taken, as long as those steps respect the effort laid down. Hopefully letting Fuerte Unido stay, since so much of the story evolves around the position of the islands and the threat we felt from Mardier. The suggestion of making island 11 a disputed land, and find a new island for the challenge also sounds like a possible solution to me. I am trying to be objective here, and take into consideration both lore and story concerns, as well as effort already laid down from both players and GM.

[Bregir]

I know (and understand) everybody has an opinion on this rather unfortunate incidence, but I would like to suggest you all take a breather and await a decision from the brethren courts.

Not that your input isn't valued, but I am concerned that you get so invested in one of the solutions you have suggested yourselves that no,matter what we come up with, you wont be happy about it! :P

So if we could let things cool down for a moment, we are trying to work out something in leadership. And believe us, we have been listening (very discreetly ;) )

[gedren_y]

17 minutes ago, Bregir said:

I know (and understand) everybody has an opinion on this rather unfortunate incidence, but I would like to suggest you all take a breather and await a decision from the brethren courts.

Not that your input isn't valued, but I am concerned that you get so invested in one of the solutions you have suggested yourselves that no,matter what we come up with, you wont be happy about it! :P

So if we could let things cool down for a moment, we are trying to work out something in leadership. And believe us, we have been listening (very discreetly ;) )

Accepted. I'll log off and go build for other story lines.

[Kai NRG]

I just wanted to say, since it seems like Garmadon and I have taken a bit of a beating for not having put caps on the KMA in the first place, that we had absolutely no idea that island 11 was so integral to Ska's plans for the future of BoBS.  We would certainly not have been so supportive of the project if we had.  Nor have we now (or at any other time) ever tried to bend, let alone break, the rules.  If we have done so unintentionally (they are fairly complicated you know), we're sorry for it!

Again, had either of us foreseen the KMA leading to this, our reaction to the initial idea would have been very different!

[TitusV]

Guys I feel a bit torn between understanding Ska and being loyal to my faction... Why can't BOTH sides back down?

[Bregir]

5 minutes ago, TitusV said:

Guys I feel a bit torn between understanding Ska and being loyal to my faction... Why can't BOTH sides back down?

Titus, just to be clear, we are working towards a mutual solution in leadership. There is a lot of disagreement out in this thread, but I expect that we will be able to find some solution agreeable to all. We are going for compromise, not conquest here. Patience, my young padawan! :P

5 minutes ago, TitusV said:

Guys I feel a bit torn between understanding Ska and being loyal to my faction... Why can't BOTH sides back down?

Titus, just to be clear, we are working towards a mutual solution in leadership. There is a lot of disagreement out in this thread, but I expect that we will be able to find some solution agreeable to all. We are going for compromise, not conquest here. Patience, my young padawan! :P

[TitusV]

21 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Titus, just to be clear, we are working towards a mutual solution in leadership. There is a lot of disagreement out in this thread, but I expect that we will be able to find some solution agreeable to all. We are going for compromise, not conquest here. Patience, my young padawan! :P

Titus, just to be clear, we are working towards a mutual solution in leadership. There is a lot of disagreement out in this thread, but I expect that we will be able to find some solution agreeable to all. We are going for compromise, not conquest here. Patience, my young padawan! :P

That, I will have, my master. 

[SkaForHire]

13 hours ago, Maxim I said:

Well, this was an era in real life where every nation was fighting with another nation. Peace was just about rebuilding forts, ships and troops.

So the war aspect is something that would have been introduced sooner or later. And as war between Oleon, Corrington and Eslandola is a path that is not at all stable at this point in the game, NPC-factions are a great way to start developping this aspect of the game.

Trust me, I totally understand the rules.

But here is why this is gone wrong:

1) if we knew in advance (so before Ayrlego choosed his island) that Mardier had claimed this island, we would have known that island 11 has a decent Mardier presence on it. As we would only have picked our islands 1 month later, we would not have any reason to dispute Mardiers claims on that island (as it would have been obvious that Mardier owns that island). And we would not have picked both our islands next to island 11. So if we knew all of this (we did not), then the squatting rules would have been applicable as we would have broken the rules, and then you would indeed be right... But we did not know the island belonged to Mardier for longer than a week...

2) so in our logic and with the information we had available, it seemed to us that Mardier just picked island 11 to expand their Kingdom. As they picked it after Oleon picked their islands, we considered island 11 to be undiscovered. As we founded Fuerte Unido within 2 weeks (I even think within one week) after Mardiers claim (so after the moment we thought their settlers/explorers entered on that island) and as there still were no clues of settlements, we played along the rules as we only disputed their claims on the island (just like Corrington did with the claims of Eslandola on Berelli, Eslandola was there first as well). 

I don't have time to address everyone before work... but a few points... Going back to the rules, it would not matter if there was actually people on the island or not -- the island was still officially awarded to Mardier -- thus allowing the squatter rule to come into effect. However, I never intended for us to evoke that! too much time has been spent, so we offered up a new choice -- the Ultimatum. This was an in game response to the situation that allowed for a choice.  Mardier does not recognize your declaration of war, and has not felt any of it over the last few months, so it is willing to let ESL evacuate (That is an in character position, take it as you like, insinuate Mardier's military position as you would like) without a formal declaration of war.   On an OOC side of things, if war is declared, it allows us to test new mechanics, gives the Sea Rats something to do if they want to take up the letter of marque, and adds to ESL's story they have already brewed.   If ESL evacuates, there are a lot of stories to tell there, and there is some bitter precedence for an all out attack on Mardier in the future. 

 

Finally, I am not single-handedly playing against you all here... this was stuff that has been written for a while.  It makes more sense for a story to play it out than change it -- and basically the complaint about game mastering is saying that "oh I don't like that I ran into Orks here can't we change it to a cotton candy machine?" Had this been a Corrington settlement... then we would be forced to play it out. Because it is an NPC nation, and part of the lore, you guys seem to just want to throw it out.  What is the point in having any plot, if we are just going to throw it out because a couple people decided that they didn't like it when they opened up a problem by accident?

[Maxim I]

8 minutes ago, SkaForHire said:

I don't have time to address everyone before work... but a few points... Going back to the rules, it would not matter if there was actually people on the island or not -- the island was still officially awarded to Mardier -- thus allowing the squatter rule to come into effect. However, I never intended for us to evoke that! too much time has been spent, so we offered up a new choice -- the Ultimatum. This was an in game response to the situation that allowed for a choice.  Mardier does not recognize your declaration of war, and has not felt any of it over the last few months, so it is willing to let ESL evacuate (That is an in character position, take it as you like, insinuate Mardier's military position as you would like) without a formal declaration of war.   On an OOC side of things, if war is declared, it allows us to test new mechanics, gives the Sea Rats something to do if they want to take up the letter of marque, and adds to ESL's story they have already brewed.   If ESL evacuates, there are a lot of stories to tell there, and there is some bitter precedence for an all out attack on Mardier in the future. 

 

Finally, I am not single-handedly playing against you all here... this was stuff that has been written for a while.  It makes more sense for a story to play it out than change it -- and basically the complaint about game mastering is saying that "oh I don't like that I ran into Orks here can't we change it to a cotton candy machine?" Had this been a Corrington settlement... then we would be forced to play it out. Because it is an NPC nation, and part of the lore, you guys seem to just want to throw it out.  What is the point in having any plot, if we are just going to throw it out because a couple people decided that they didn't like it when they opened up a problem by accident?

We don't want to change your plot, we just wonder if the location of island 11 is really so important for that plot that no other island can match it? If I understand correctly, you would have choosen another island if Ayrlego or Oleon would have choosen 11. So that's why I don't see why your beautifull story (trust me, I zm really looking forward to it), can't be placed on another island so we can experiment with the war stuff on island 11.

we are not affraid at all to go to war with Mardier as that was sth we did know in advance that our claim would have mayor consequences.

[Capt Wolf]

I'll chime in that using this is a fine chance to test war mechanics, and I'll trust Ska as to whether or not it is suitable for this island, given his future plans for it. I applaud this as a logical way to continue the story.

I was going to say more, but I'll leave it to another time.

[blackdeathgr]

Patience, people. Your voices have been heard. Your will too. The Court is convening at the moment and you shall hear from it soon. For now we can all populate our charming little colonies with mice, snakes, pygmies killers... I meant banana shops, taverns, houses, dry-docks, fishmongers etc etc. You know, the usual stuff.

[gedren_y]

If we stay and fight (looks like we might), then our settlement and forts need to not be on top of Ska's legitimate settlement positions. We invaded, so Mardier's settlements should get primary position. I've said my last $0.02 on the matter.

[Capt Wolf]

13 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

If we stay and fight (looks like we might), then our settlement and forts need to not be on top of Ska's legitimate settlement positions. We invaded, so Mardier's settlements should get primary position. I've said my last $0.02 on the matter.

I'm pretty sure "Convict Town" IS our settlement! So, given that there is only one location conflict -- the small fort I posted before Ska posted all his island info -- I have no problem with my small fort moving or disappearing entirely. I certainly do not want that build to be an impediment to a solution here.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Capt Wolf

[SkaForHire]

Yes, that was brought up this evening -- convict town is the ESL settlement, its just what the Mardierans decided to call it.  I thought it was obvious because I put it in the same place.

11 hours ago, Sir Stig said:

 

Operation KMA inspired greatly and added fuel to BoBs. It felt like this was the event that truly launched BoBs to the next level. Please don't let that effect be thwarted and washed away. Blatant rulebreaking should not be rewarded, But great initiative should. So a compromise from both sides are in order. I think a good solution may be to find a way to include the lore of KMA and Fuerte Unido. Rewrite around it, perhaps start some talks to arrange a truce (at least temporary) between Eslandola and Mardier (thank you Phred for the IC support!). It feels like a No Go for Fuerte Unido will break the fun more than a compromise will break the game. I don't know the plans for island 11, so I don't know how much it will impact future events. I hope it is possible to find a way here. We can come with suggestions, but without knowing we can not pick the best solution. I am sure Eslandolans can accept steps that have to be taken, as long as those steps respect the effort laid down. Hopefully letting Fuerte Unido stay, since so much of the story evolves around the position of the islands and the threat we felt from Mardier. The suggestion of making island 11 a disputed land, and find a new island for the challenge also sounds like a possible solution to me. I am trying to be objective here, and take into consideration both lore and story concerns, as well as effort already laid down from both players and GM.

This is what I don't understand -- I have said over and over again that KMA still happened. There was an in game voice memorandum (the whole letter of marque thing) there basically telling ESL to shove off... which is totally warranted when a kingdom has been attacked.  Nowhere did I say that we would remove anybody from the game by retracting the story they told. I did say, after people claimed I had overstepped (attacking me personally, not MAR, which had made the in game statement), that the rules allowed for the settlement to be completely wiped out (which would have been in the story, not lore erased...). I also stated that this wasn't going to happen, and that the ball was in ESL's court to fight of flight.  Kai said that my mistake here might have been allowing the flight to another island for free here, because that may have given the opinion that we were just moving the story -- but that was not my intention, you would tell your story of moving in the lore, while not having to pay to reestablish your properties in the EGS.

 

Finally, to Faladin... I had no idea you had a MOC with the natives. When the island description was given, this was not to disregard what your characters had done.  Not all the islanders could be integrated into an ecomienda system, I am sure there are hideouts on the cliffs and communities the MAR settlers don't know about. And just to clarify, by integrated, I meant the MAR forces had forcefully integrated them into the economy, not just great friends with them and now they all speak Mardieran, they are merely part of the labor system. (Do I smell rescue mission?)

14 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

First, let me apologize to everyone on both sides of this, as it was my suggestion to place a squatter settlement on island #11. It was my error in understanding the squatter rules that led to this.

Second, I'm willing to take my lumps as a result. If it were just me, the whole settlement could just go away, or move to another island, or whatever. But it has become evident that the KMA lore created by this sequence of events enriched the game for many players in all factions (before everyone blew up), and that many on both sides would like to find a way for that lore to remain.

Third, as I now understand the rules, it IS within the rules for Ska to allow the settlement to stay (and as for my second settlement, it can just go away, that's fine). The explanation in-game would not jive with the reasoning behind the game mechanics, but it is possible without breaking the rules. The license fees would go to Mardier, even thought it wouldn't be viewed in-game as a Mardier settlement. Given that there are no combat rules in the game yet, there's really no harm, and it's an interesting storyline that furthers the war between Mardier and Eslandola.

Fourth, if Ska is not willing to do that, then surely we can find some compromise that keeps the lore.

Fifth, as much as this hullabaloo was created by actions of the Eslandolan players in-game, we did not think we were breaking the rules.

Sixth, the problem was exacerbated by two things: (1) Ska reacted IC rather than leader-to-players OOC, and (2) the reveal of Mardier's existing settlements was done in extremely poor fashion. It should have been made known when the islands were revealed. Simply put, this was poor game management on leadership's part, and the fact that leadership continues to defend the poor reveal is part of the problem.

I'm an experienced (decades of exp) RPG player and GM. I've played in (and run) good games and bad. The key now is to not take things personally and find a solution that works for everybody. As long as leadership continues to take the stance that "we did nothing wrong, you broke the rules," that will not happen. And we Eslandola players need to stop complaining about "we wouldn't have done this or settled the islands we chose" and accept that we screwed up. Our island choices are fine. We don't need to compare the physical size of our ... islands. Some good solutions have been suggested. Eslandola players need to be willing to accept bad news on this, but leadership needs to realize it messed up to, and that maybe everything that happened in-game isn't a bad thing.

First, since everyone is listing their CV here, I too have GMed games for nearly 25 years now. But, I think I realized why there is a conflict point here, you all thought that I was deleting your settlement, all I did was rename it on the Mardier map (Convict town was meant as a jest to the ESL settlement, as it was seen as unlawful to the Mardierans). I didn't realize that that wasn't obvious since it was in the same place. If you noticed, I never said any lore was going away.... if this was the complaint, we were never arguing the same points here. 

 

The reason for the stealth reveal is that I meant it as an Easter egg for those who were paying attention. I expected questions in forums like "what's that new settlement?" or "where did that come from?" but actually, I thought nobody even noticed it...  It was meant as a plot hook for the next challenge, and wasn't something I just wanted to announce. Scarst was working on a "discovery" build for the island for the prelude, I actually think that is why he is so mad about this.

[gedren_y]

Thank you, Ska, for clarifying. Maybe if you had added (ESL) next to Convict Town we wouldn't have been as confused.

I think my previous post outlines the reason behind most of the upset, and how to avoid that in the future.

Capt Wolf, I think that the build could stay. With just a bit of story about how Mardier let the fort be built, then quickly overwhelmed it with ground forces, the story conflict could be resolved.

[Capt Wolf]

I think it is safe to say there were various misunderstandings on all sides and, from what I can see, it looks like we're close to working them out. While I can't speak for everyone on the ESL side of things, I can say that we always expected in-game consequences for KMA, and that a "Grand Duchy of Prio"-like mechanic was considered a highly possible result. I didn't mention it earlier because it didn't seem to be on the table as an option, which may have contributed to some misunderstandings.

As for Fortaleza Victoria, I would not have built it in its current location if I had known at the time it was in the shadow (literally!) of a Mardier settlement, as it would no longer serve the purpose for which it was built. I could easily move it up river, or somewhere else entirely, on island or off. When a final resolution to this situation is achieved, just let me know what my options are.

[SkaForHire]

6 hours ago, gedren_y said:

Thank you, Ska, for clarifying. Maybe if you had added (ESL) next to Convict Town we wouldn't have been as confused.

 

Yes, I think you are very right here.

5 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

I think it is safe to say there were various misunderstandings on all sides and, from what I can see, it looks like we're close to working them out. While I can't speak for everyone on the ESL side of things, I can say that we always expected in-game consequences for KMA, and that a "Grand Duchy of Prio"-like mechanic was considered a highly possible result. I didn't mention it earlier because it didn't seem to be on the table as an option, which may have contributed to some misunderstandings.

As for Fortaleza Victoria, I would not have built it in its current location if I had known at the time it was in the shadow (literally!) of a Mardier settlement, as it would no longer serve the purpose for which it was built. I could easily move it up river, or somewhere else entirely, on island or off. When a final resolution to this situation is achieved, just let me know what my options are.

I think we posted this post and your post at about the exact same time, so there was really no way for you to know, past the rest of the reasons.  I think if you want to move it up stream to cut off their interior supply, that is a fantastic strategic location.

[Capt Wolf]

20 minutes ago, SkaForHire said:

I think we posted this post and your post at about the exact same time, so there was really no way for you to know, past the rest of the reasons.  I think if you want to move it up stream to cut off their interior supply, that is a fantastic strategic location.

Ska, thanks; that was exactly my thinking on the location. I'll edit my post tonight with revised text and map.

And, yeah, I think I beat you on the post by less than a minute!

[Bregir]

Hear ye, Hear ye!

Announcement from the Brethren Courts:

Dear all,

As has been hinted in previous posts, we have arrived at a solution that we hope and think will all be able to accept. We are aware that this will not satisfy everyone's demands, but trust you will be constructive and flexible.

We have decided to go by the route that requires the least retcon'ing and maintains the most of the created lore as is. Thus, Eslandola's KMA action stands, as does Mardier's presence and responses(as well as those by Corrington and Oleon), meaning that Fuerte Unido is located as decided (convict town was all the time meant to be Mardier's derogative name for Fuerte Unido!) and that the island is now contested. It appears to be an interesting time in New Terra!

However, inaccuracies in the mapping of Fortaleza Victoria's location appears to have occurred and we encourage Capt. Wolf to look closer at the map and pinpoint accurately its location. (It may or may not be on Skaford Heights This seems to be in order already.)

This way, no one's efforts have been in vain, although Mardier's hefty presence is sure to surprise and confound all the nations involved on the island and its surroundings!

Mardier established this colony before Terraversa declared independence and opened its ports to Eslandola, Oleon, Corrington and independent Sea Rats, allowing them access to the new world. It has thus been built up in secret before other nations reached these shores, allowing it its surprisingly massive presence.

Lastly, the Brethren Courts would like to offer our sincere collective apologies for any confusion, ill-feeling and insecurity this has lead to. We try our best to support all (reasonable ;) ) initiatives like these, but as this was new in several aspects, we were quite taken aback and unprepared. This is the first time we have a real squatter colony, actual non-mrca conflict with an NPC-nation, this hefty inter-faction diplomacy, and secret NPC colonies, to name a few, which means we did not handle it as well as we could have wished. We also hope that any ill-timed words and/or misunderstandings in different threads can be forgiven, as we will forgive.

Lastly, we will add that we are very happy to see this kind of enthusiasm and initiative in BoBS and have noted the constructive comments you have added to the discussion.

Should this lead to any questions, please ask here or your local trusted leader, and we will do our best to answer to your satisfaction.

Ever your servants

The Brethren Courts

[TitusV]

Great job, leadership!