1 hour ago, Paul Boratko said:

People have been blatantly ripping me off for years without any type of credit.. You just use it as motivation to come up with something new..

That sounds bad, but I think nobody can do hardly anything about it. The other side of the medal is IMO that you have profited from your fans a lot too, let´s rather see it the positive way. Your builds have been a good motivation for me ever since! But I´m alway trying to bring up something new in my MOC instead of copying from others which becomes harder and harder with the time in general.

2 hours ago, Paul Boratko said:

The problem today in 2016 is that everyone and their mother wants to be an over-night LEGO Technic Rockstar without coming up with something original..

I guess I know who you are talking about  ... We were young at some time too...

2 hours ago, Paul Boratko said:

The problem today in 2016 is that everyone and their mother wants to be an over-night LEGO Technic Rockstar without coming up with something original..

I guess there are some wannabe stars out there that think they can get there using designs from others. But - at least within the Eurobricks community - I think/hope there's a kind of community conscience that will correct for that kind of behavior.

I look up to people like you and Nathanael Kuipers, both of you are a great inspiration to me. Personally I'm happy to mingle between other Technic-fanatics and don't need to rise above them. I do have an urge to add something to the community though and I guess I do search for some kind of recognition too. In that light: Receiving a personal e-mail - a few months ago - from Nathanael showing his appreciation for my work on the Porsche made my day .

3 hours ago, Paul Boratko said:

People have been blatantly ripping me off for years without any type of credit.. You just use it as motivation to come up with something new..

The problem today in 2016 is that everyone and their mother wants to be an over-night LEGO Technic Rockstar without coming up with something original..

Amen to that,

I sometimes see good solutions or geometries in a creation, even when they are built in totally different subjects than my work. I implement them as well, but that, to me, is more inspiration then stealing a design.

 

Only this week I saw a Harley Davidson here on this forum, that was even blogged at TLCB as something original, that was a complete ripp-off of my designs.

I think it is a compliment that people do so, but then dont state it was such a tough job designing it yourself!

Like Paul, I am also challenged by this to take the extra mile on new creations.

 

 

 

That's party a reason why I don't build others' MOCs. I even felt little bad when I used Barman's linkage for the Telehandler steering (even though I credited him fine, I hope). Maybe it's a childish thing, but I feel unconfortable when I don't come up with the ideas in my models.

Learnign from official sets is good enough to get ideas, I think.

I agree with Paul, we even had a conversation about the issue. It's sad to see hyped models with most modules beign rip-offs of other models.

1 hour ago, Lipko said:

.....

It's sad to see hyped models with most modules beign rip-offs of other models.

For me personally it´s fun to see rip-offs of my models from time to time - e.g. I´m amused about some more or less successfull "evolutions" of my BMW DTM on YT. I´m far less popular than the big guys who are really affected by this, my mentionnod example is a model I don´t earn money with and maybe that´s why I won´t mind in this case.

Of course it´s unfair if the inspirational source isn´t mentionned at all, shame on them! We all know about Crowkillers rip-offs of his Gallardo or Porsche and so on. I saw as well the mentionned Harley Davidson rip-off recently at TLCB and immediately had the thought "I´ve seen this a while ago (Bricksonwheels?!?)". Could you mention some other bad examples exposing the evil?

Wouldn´t it be a good idea to introduce a "Hall of Shame" where the rip-off is being shown with the name of the builder who doesn´t credit the original creator / sells instructions of someone else MOC / similar violations, showing the original model and name of the designer next to it? That would remind such guys in future to show more respect and give more attention to rather develop own skills and ideas. On the other side I can even immagine that such a procedure would encourage people without any talent to get popularity in any way and make an end to their miserable feelings of insignificance....

I do not want to defend anybody, I do not know models of most of you, since I only discovered lego-online world very recently, but on the other hand I would recommend issue "patent trolling" as something to consider too, before going all inquisition. I can see later people getting cross with each other: "this is mine" . "that is not yours, this is so general/not the same" etc.

I want to believe that it is perfectly possible to come up with idea independently, uninfluenced way and still at the end have something similar what somebody else did before. Actually I would be surprised that if more people look for answer to similar problem and both using LEGO, that outcome would not be related at all (ever).  

edit: it is just LEGO, do not take that so seriously (nor yourself)

Edited October 13, 20168 yr by J_C

Oh no...Guys, please don't convert creative hobby to intellectual property club. Just build, and don't say "my idea" when it is 100% the same as someone shared before. Many OUR ideas are often modified ideas of someone else. Yes, you can credit other designer, if you think it is fair. But no need to discuss that in style "to be or not ot be....".

Sorry, but this topic is boring, if you want to talk - just visit technic pub ( find pub entrance by yourself)

Edited October 14, 20168 yr by rm8

4 minutes ago, rm8 said:

Oh no...Guys, please don't convert creative hobby to intellectual property club. Just build, and don't say "my idea" when it is 100% the same as someone shared before. Many OUR ideas are often modified ideas of someone else. Yes, you can credit other designer, if you think it is fair. But no need to discuss that in style "to be or not ot be....".

 exactly 

22 hours ago, Didumos69 said:

However, I wouldn't feel offended when they don't, as long as they don't take credit for the specific idea themselves.

How often do people take credit for their work?  I don't know that I have ever seen a builder say, "This is my idea.  I take credit for it."

21 hours ago, MajorAlvega said:

And I always try to give credit to people that inspire me.

This is a key distinction.  I always mention those that inspire me.

21 hours ago, roppie11 said:

It depends, if you use one of sariel's gearboxes, in which he put quite some work, he deserves to be mentioned.

but if you take just a little idea from someone who spend 5 mins of their time, i don't consider it rude when you don't mention them. But as didumoso said, the builder should not take credit for something if he didn't come up with it. Even if it is just a tiny idea.

But how do you know one person put in more time than the other?  One may just have more of an engineering mind than the other, and their ideas come easier and quicker.  It doesn't make them more or less deserving of appreciation.

21 hours ago, allanp said:

This is actually a tricky question. When you credit someone, how do you know they were the first person to ever come up with that idea? lets say that Steve comes up with a great idea. Then Andy sees it, and posts a picture of it. Then Jack sees Andy's post and is inspired, uses the idea and then credits Andy, so now not only has Andy stolen the idea, but Jack is also now unknowingly complicit because he is crediting Andy for Steve's idea. So unless you know for sure they were the original creator then you may be crediting the wrong person, which may do more harm than good. 

Exactly.  This is perfectly stated.  Who is to say who was the first to do a thing?

17 minutes ago, rm8 said:

Oh no...Guys, please don't convert creative hobby to intellectual property club. Just build, and don't say "my idea" when it is 100% the same as someone posted before. Many OUR ideas are modified ideas of someone else.

Sorry, but this topic is boring, if you wanna talk - just visit technic pub (sorry, find pub entrance by yourself)

This sums up my feeling perfectly.  If you're in this to "get credit", you're in it for the wrong reason.  Build stuff, be proud of your models, share them, and take pride knowing you've inspired others.

10 minutes ago, rm8 said:

Oh no...Guys, please don't convert creative hobby to intellectual property club. Just build, and don't say "my idea" when it is 100% the same as someone shared before. Many OUR ideas are often modified ideas of someone else. Yes, you can credit other designer, if you think it is fair. But no need to discuss that in style "to be or not ot be....".

Sorry, but this topic is boring, if you want to talk - just visit technic pub (sorry, find pub entrance by yourself)

Agree 100%. Let's keep our hobby for fun, and this place as Unikitty's Cloud Technic.

On the first page of this discussion there were some interesting replies that tried to put things in perspective and bring some nuances to it. For some people those perspectives are interesting and help them putting things in perspective themselves. It did for me and it did for a few others I know for sure. Nor the OP, nor any of those replies pointed into the direction of having an 'intellectual property club'.

On this page the tone seems to have changed and some appear to feel uncomfortable with having this discussion at all. My request to the ones that think this is boring would be: Let's try to stay on-topic and not make this into a discussion about whether this topic is interesting or not. Perhaps it's better to refrain from commenting when you're not interested.

Edited October 13, 20168 yr by Didumos69

This depends a lot.

Personally, I don't care much about using my ideas in others MOC. I often got mails asking me it they can use my gearboxes in their MOC. I always answer Yes, and telling them that they don't even have to mention me. 

Actually, what I don't like is this : 

Spoiler

 

 

I use to search "charbel lego" on Youtube sometimes. I saw this about a month ago. He actually copied what I did and then wrote in the description : "inspired by Charbel".

Look, even the music and the shots are the same ! 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Everybody seems to have a different feeling about this. My work has often been copied, and I understand Pauls point. For myself I always keep in mind that it is "just" hobby.

I dont mind that people use my work as inspiration, on the contrary, I feel complimented by that. But I also know it can be frustrating that people use your designs and then pretend to have created it themselves. 

 

I gave credit out when I rebuilt the 42030 because their ideas improved the set so much

At the moment I'm nearly finishing a MOC Toyota FJ45 ( the long bed ) the outside shell is very close to RM8's FJ45 body as the proportions are spot on! and I wanted to build a FJ45 to go with his FJ40, the gearbox is certainly from Madoca1977's FJ40 crawler, its well engineered. and compact and certainly credit will go to them.

That's where the similarities pretty much finish as the axles certainly are my own design and the gearbox is driven by two L motors with the M motors for the front and rear winch under them I'm possibly going to change the build to be a us military truck keeping the JF45 setup for myself.. still would credit Madona for the initial gearbox design though...

and for the record I have certainly seem the rear suspension from madona's wing truck on numerous other models ( at least three ) with not even a nood towards him which is a shame as he is a very talented builder....

 

I don't think we have very different feelings about this. Being around for a while, my observation is, that giving credit is not an issue for any forum member, but natural behaviour. If we discuss about "outsiders" in the forum, it has not much use, there is a conversation about something what is natural for us, but the message will not arrive to those, whose activity might considered as disrespectful. And that's why I agree with rm8.

It is a good feeling and good feedback if You get credit, but nothing negative if this doesn't happen. I build for fun in first row, to challange myself (MOCing) and to share these experiences with people who suffer from the same passion.  This is my definition for hobby.

Cheers!

4 hours ago, agrof said:

I don't think we have very different feelings about this. Being around for a while, my observation is, that giving credit is not an issue for any forum member, but natural behaviour. If we discuss about "outsiders" in the forum, it has not much use, there is a conversation about something what is natural for us, but the message will not arrive to those, whose activity might considered as disrespectful. And that's why I agree with rm8.

It is a good feeling and good feedback if You get credit, but nothing negative if this doesn't happen. I build for fun in first row, to challange myself (MOCing) and to share these experiences with people who suffer from the same passion.  This is my definition for hobby.

Cheers!

I get your point and I think it makes a lot of sense now. This discussion is not going to influence the world outside Eurobricks. I started this discussion with the Eurobricks community in mind, but the world is bigger than Eurobricks of course. Thanks for clarifying!

Cheers!

4 hours ago, agrof said:

I don't think we have very different feelings about this. Being around for a while, my observation is, that giving credit is not an issue for any forum member, but natural behaviour. If we discuss about "outsiders" in the forum, it has not much use, there is a conversation about something what is natural for us, but the message will not arrive to those, whose activity might considered as disrespectful. And that's why I agree with rm8.

It is a good feeling and good feedback if You get credit, but nothing negative if this doesn't happen. I build for fun in first row, to challange myself (MOCing) and to share these experiences with people who suffer from the same passion.  This is my definition for hobby.

Cheers!

I also agree with this.  I don't think there is as much disagreeing opinion on this as some might think from this post.  Earlier @didumos69 had mentioned that perhaps there was a shift in opinion between the second from the first page.  But I don't see that.  What I do see is just perhaps a lack of clarification of what we are discussing. 

 

I think that everyone agrees that if there is a blatant copy of a design, you need to give credit.  If you buy or use instructions, reverse-engineer, etc. the work of others and use it in your own MOC - give credit.  I don't think it is nearly as complex as sometimes we think it is.  I built a Unimog with a pneumatic engine in it.  Super-fun for me...... but even though I have built my own LPEs, none of them work as good as Alex Zorko's @ LPEpower.com. I didn't want to take the time or cost to learn to modify Lego switches and cylinders so I bought an LPE from him and that is what was used in my project.  Therefore.... the credit goes to him.  Simple as that. 

 

However, to agree with perhaps more what is being discussed here on the second page, non-blatant copying of ideas, or obtaining inspiration from others is not so clear cut. It is not that people are disagreeing that credit should be given to original builders, it is that there is skepticism about quantifying what constitutes "original" in the first place --- and I agree with this. @rm8 said it best when he lamented that we don't want to begin making a wonderful hobby like a onerous research papers........ adding pages and pages of citations as references.  Duly noted.  We don't.  I don't pretend to know exactly how to navigate things here in the more murky area of ideas, etc.  - but.... I think it is worth mentioned that there is a distinction between blatant copying of a build and more of a using others' ideas for inspiration, or an idea...etc.  This is worth mentioning because it is not a change in opinion between whether one should or should not give credit to others' work but rather a change in opinion of what work should and should not be credited.......

 

1 hour ago, nerdsforprez said:

What I do see is just perhaps a lack of clarification of what we are discussing.

That must be it. If my corrective words were rude in any sense then sorry for that. It remains to be interesting what all of you have to say in this matter, also on this page.. And I agree we all kind of agree.

I´d rather stay on this - as somebody said recently: don´t ever get used to injustice! It bothers me a bit if we have to get a conformist style agreement on everything. Everybody has the right to have and to issue his own unbiased opinion without offending others, that´s what an interesting discussion forum is all about. A discussion can awaken different emotional feelings as well, we are not robots after all. If somebody from the "heavyweights" like Paul Boratko issues his opinion from bad experience - it´s valuable information and contribution to the discussion. If somebody is living in a country where such things as intellectual property and copyright are dumped like trash, well - he has the right to go on with that opinion too. If somebody doesn´t like the discussion at all, refrain from commenting, as Didumos said, who is the initiator of the discussion by the way ! 

I look at it like this and I will use People this time around becasue that where all this credit is given to. I understand that we give Einstein to much Credit and We give Tesla None when it comes to the advancement of civil society. We look at Einstein as E=mc^2 and think there is something there that must be credit to GOD like abilities. While on the other hand we have Tesla who Understood the Ultimate Power Source Nature has for us an we take it for granted and say No No No Dr. Tesla Einstein did that. Now understand that the people that promote this is the Face of what Theft Looks like where they undermined the GOD like Credit that should be given to who really deserve it but all they do is take. But as we all know the Modern Education system is Against Giving Credit to GOD so there is your lesson today kids. Einstein is a fraud kids and this why. See it for your self and see if Credit is given to where is due when it come to Ultimate Power Source Nature has for us. So Ask your friends and you family and Einstein is there answer and it take no Genius to think that. 

Most of us could just say that on any given MOC that inspiration came from Blackbrd, Crowkillers, Lipko, Marcus and a few others I have forgotten (I apologize in advance for any I have forgotten) and we would be pretty safe that no one was left uncredited. In fact, when you see anything I say is a MOC, just assume that all those wonderful designers inspired me and I may or may not have used some of their ideas. I didn't mean to steal, I was just trying to create something by combining some wonderful ideas and putting something of myself in it. I really feel that is what "most" of us do.

Without those designers the state of LEGO Technic would not be what it is today! I hope to see many more creations by them that are an inspiration to us all.

All that said I DO NOT approve of someone just copying someone else's  creation and claiming it as their own!

Just MHO, YMMV

Andy D

P.S. How could I forget Sariel, I look to him for many, many ideas (like many of us do).

Edited October 16, 20168 yr by Andy D

I think it depends on the amount used, say you use a single part of a model, like a transmission. I feel there should be some credit, depending on if it's a complex sequential transmission, though if it's just a simple 4-speed that has been used by lots of builders, credit isn't probably necessary; unless it has some special modification to it.  Though If a builder takes an entire chassis, then if the builder has any common sense, then they should provide credit for that. I personally think that builders should search for their own solutions, as it adds to the fun of creating your own MOC. There are some cases where it is inevitable that a certain solution only works. I think builders should provide credit for a complex mechanism, or very unique one. Though if it's common, it would be appropriate to provide credit, though not necessary. I will say if someone is going to copy an entire MOC, and make minor modifications to it and claim it as their own; that is deliberately wrong.  

Edited October 16, 20168 yr by Tommy Styrvoky

Just for fun, what if you bought the idea? Or perhaps bought a collection of parts already assembled.

For example, when was the last time you bought a car and in the literature, Ford said that they wanted to credit getrag for designing the transmission? Or a washing machine and they said that the motor came from ZNG? Sometimes this is done as a marketing exercise if the sub-assembly is from a well know brand and is different to the poverty pack version for example (eg brakes by Brembo), but they aren't actually crediting the designer of the other part....