Shipwrights Guild Hall (WIPs, feedback, and advice)

[Roadmonkeytj]

@TomSkippy

If going for a "ideas" project then I would recomend against coloring.  Stickers could be a viable solution.   Just look at a lot of @kurigan ships he utilizes colored electrical tape.  I have done this to simulate dummy ports where I need structural stability.

[Bregir]

14 hours ago, TomSkippy said:

Does recoloring Lego automatically exclude the ship from ever being that? Will it distract from some other new ideas/techniques incorporated in this build?

Well, I can only speak for myself, and it will for me. :/

The bow is an area I always struggle with, honestly. I have tried many different solutions, typically involving hinges. This is an example of something that has been reworked endlessly, and I am still not too happy about it. (And involves quite a bit of bending)

This one is better (ignore the beakhead, which needs to be reworked. Also, the lower hinge bricks are not aligned as well as they should be).

Otherwise, I will always suggest taking a look at ships by @Legostone , @Bodi or some of the other expert builders here. There are many interesting solution out there! :)

[Wellesley]

@Bodi built my all time favourite illusion scale ship of the line hull. Unfortunately he is a bit stingy with photos:/

@TomSkippy Speaking of prefab hulls, did you only mean the old version or will even the new flat one result in a too tall and bulky bow?

I might have to buy some of the new ones myself, always wanted to try them out. Also I want to get the hull from the viking ship:D

[Bregir]

9 minutes ago, Wellesley said:

Also I want to get the hull from the viking ship:D

Bought it, but only ever used it once - it is very hard (for me) to incorporate in the construction of anything but a longboat... :P

[TomSkippy]

@Roadmonkeytj electrical tape! Hadn’t thought of that.

@Bregir Man, I know the struggle! I like those examples.

@Wellesley I’m talking about the older 12 wide hulls. I have some of the new ones... they’re good, but have a couple of issues (for me personally): 1) they’re 16 studs wide. I prefer working at 8-14, Fits my time/money budget better. 2) the upper bow piece is 3 studs tall, which is a little too tall for the gunstripe. It’s also a solid piece which means no cannon on the bow curve.

I may just have to settle  for the wall. I rarely notice it on other ships. I just need to trust that the gun, strip, beakhead, headrails, anchors, and rigging, will help.

@Roadmonkeytj electrical tape! Hadn’t thought of that.

@Bregir Man, I know the struggle! I like those examples.

@Wellesley I’m talking about the older 12 wide hulls. I have some of the new ones... they’re good, but have a couple of issues (for me personally): 1) they’re 16 studs wide. I prefer working at 8-14, Fits my time/money budget better. 2) the upper bow piece is 3 studs tall, which is a little too tall for the gunstripe. It’s also a solid piece which means no cannon on the bow curve.

Bodi and Legostone have some wonderful builds. Hoping this build can stand near theirs!

I may just have to settle  for the wall. I rarely notice it on other ships. I just need to trust that the gun, strip, beakhead, headrails, anchors, and rigging, will help.

 

[kurigan]

@Roadmonkeytj I only did that once (that you know of) and it was neither structural nor shape altering. On Blanid I used red tape on the inside of the gunwale so she could be blue outside and red inside.

@TomSkippy It would be a lot more helpful if you were to show your own work, rather than referencing other's. Which aspect(s) of the hinge method do you find particularly distasteful? 

[Roadmonkeytj]

48 minutes ago, kurigan said:

@Roadmonkeytj I only did that once (that you know of) and it was neither structural nor shape altering. On Blanid I used red tape on the inside of the gunwale so she could be blue outside and red inside

Haha your the one who I talked about using it ... I wont give up how many other times you may or may not have admitted to using it lol.

[kurigan]

@Roadmonkeytj I was actually getting pretty up set about this and was actually about to send a message of the "how dare you" sort when, thankfully, recollection hit me. You're referring to white tape on Raven and the mullioned windows of Ramcat no doubt. Yes I own up to those uses as well, tough, the windows weren't my invention. The "(that you know of)" refers to works I haven't seen fit to share but are expected to incorporate tape in the same method as Blanid.

[Roadmonkeytj]

1 hour ago, kurigan said:

 "how dare you" sort when, thankfully, recollection hit me. 

Yes lol ... Like I've said in private.  The result is well worth the "unconventional stickers" only the true purists will scoff lol

[Bodi]

@Bregir The bow of your two decker looks quite good and I don't think you have to mend its shape, maybe except for the 2x2 blue tiles, 2x1 should look better IMHO. 

I understand your hesitation about the bow, it's hard to obtain the right shape with conventional building techniques and in my last two ships, i.e. the large two decker and the wip frigate, the bow is composed two row of hinge bricks connected with technic axles, since the bow was inclined both horizontally and vertically.

[TomSkippy]

Was out of town on work trip.

@kurigan I ended up trying hinges. I’ll post pictures later (hopefully soon) to get a critique. I’m increasingly excited about the build. Might be my best to date.

I don’t hate the electrical tape idea. I will likely try it sometime in the future. I think you could get a really nice white stripe on black/dark brown 1800s look with it.

[Wellesley]

On 6/14/2019 at 9:58 AM, Bregir said:

The bow is an area I always struggle with, honestly.

I'm still happy with the shape of the bow of my two-decker, after I rebuilt the entire construction, using the quarter saucer base.

The part also exists in light gray, though I think, you would have to widen the foredeck a few studs.

[TomSkippy]

So I've spent a lot of time on this vessel (I have tons of pieces done/ordered, just need to be assembled). Ignore the beakhead, tumblehome and the random colors. I need help with the following:

Bow Opinions (The  gap between the black/tan will eventually be filled with 3mm hose). What do you think of the shape? What can be done better? How about the 3mm hose used as a rail?

Deck Opinions The grates should have black windows if I decide to use them. What are your thoughts? What about the supports for the row boat on either side of the capstan?

General thoughts Mast locations? Those are the heights for the lower masts. Do they look ok? There will be a gaff that extends a few studs past the stern. Opinions on shape of the black/white parts of the hull?

[Wellesley]

I really like the shape of the white bottom part and the black stripe above it.
The bow looks a bit too much "bend inwards" for my taste. I'd go for a vertical solution.

You could change the postions of the capstan to sit just in front of the main mast. Then you still could have a prefab rowboat sitting on deck between the foremast and the capstan.

At first glance I thought, the masts were ok, but that would be a really huge gaff sail.
Why not take a picture of a brig you like and roughly measure the proportions?

[kurigan]

@TomSkippy The lower, white, portion of the hull seems to be looking ok, but i'm not thrilled withe the transition for the curved slopes of the bow to the inverted slopes of the side. I get they you're emulating the old Lego hulls and trying to hint at roundness on the ship'd bottom, but it really isn't necessary. You see, a wooden ship is designed to float, under normal lading, withe it's widest part along the water line. only small portions of the counter (that;' the underside curve of the hull) at the bow and stern should be seen above the waterline, unless the vessel is entirely empty. You could make life easier by not bothering. Just my two cents on the matter. 

Tumble home, at the bow of a ship, if present at all, is usually very subtle, save for a few Mediterranean designs I can think of. It's just not useful and presents a difficulty in construction shipwrights would prefer to avoid. the actual function of tumble hone is to reduce top hamper, that's the amount weight extending above the surface, which must be supported to maintain stability. by shrinking each deck successively up, the vessel's center of gravity shifts back down. This is particularly useful on war ships, which have heavy artillery lined up along the sides. It's much less so for merchant craft, which stow their heavy cargo starting in the middle of the hull. What you'll actually see on wooden ships, instead of tumble home continuing around the bow, is flair, which is the complete opposite. This widening shape helps to keep the ship's bow above the surface as it pitches on the waves and/or has it's head pushed down by the press of the wind in it's sails. (Now some one write that down, so I don't have to be the one to explain it, again, in the future. I'm sure everyone's tried of hearing it from me anyway.) My suggestion in this case is to not worry about filling the gap with hose or not, but to not have it to fill. 

I like your capstan design, that pretty neat. It is a bit big on this hull, but its not critical. A brig of this size would more likely have just a windlass, but capstans, especially on man-of-war are not unheard of. The boat tiers shouldn't be coming out of the gratings, though. They'd come out from the deck and be built right into the ships frame. If they interfered with the gratings the men couldn't go down or get out from below decks. You can also make a much simpler grating by putting 1 X 1 bricks on a plate and placing it in the hole upside down so you just see the square bottoms.( that's what I do anyway)

As for mast placement, is hard to say with out the whole rigging plan laid out. Large gaff sails on brigs are common, being that it's the ship's main sail. but it still seems that your main mast could still move back a couple of studs. I know that interferes with the ship's wheel but does she need a wheel? For one the Lego wheel is sized for a ship of the line and for another, a lot of small vessels like this just used a tiller with no wheel. 

Note: nothing I've offered is meant to discourage you. You do you, and make what ever you will of my advice. Not my monkey's, not my circus... G'night!

Dave

[Wellesley]

I'm waiting for the last bricks to arrive, so I can build the belaying pin rails to then add brails, sheets, clewlines, braces etc.

While attaching the travellers of the jib and the following staysail, I thought both yet especially the first to be too small. Now, that they are running without any auxiliary means, I'm a bit happier with their size and shape. Just the foot of both could be more horizontal. Would you recommend any changes? Speaking of horizontal, one mistake I always make is planning too much height for the yard sails. Therefore I was forced to set them as high as possible and the yard lifts are nearly horizontal, which just looks wrong. While I could just cut off a bit of the foot of every yard sail, it would change the proportions of the sails. So I just ignore it this time and hope to be smarter next time.

As you can see here, I kept nearly all gunports. The reason was her later purpose to sit in a shelf or somewhere at eye level. So most times I will only see her outside and I find the full broadside most beautiful. For the BoBS, I consider reducing the gunports again though. As a future freebuild it won't matter anyways.

[Wellesley]

As long as I have to wait for the missing bricks, I work a little bit on other ships.

I would like to have few opinions on my frigate's colour scheme variations. Not so much about the historical accuracy, more about what you really prefer, shape and colour wise. The four versions of the colour scheme won't be the only choices I consider. The green scheme was just the quickest to achieve. I'm open for new suggestions (here you find the place for historical accuracy):

Also I have to choose between two versions of davits. I'll probably got for the black version. the white looks nice, though it would fit the next century better. Looks more like a metal davit to me.

And just as a little bonus a picture next to my SotL:

 

And I finally made some pictures of the "Lydia". I tried to incorporate the suggestions, but I hesitate to cut the ropes. If I want to add a third mast, I will have to change the mast positions, but before that, I want to be sure about what I'm doing. I don't like the current version that much, the original was better in my opinion. Though I admit that she was front heavy. Maybe shrinking the foresails would do her justice as well.

[kurigan]

6 hours ago, Wellesley said:

 Not so much about the historical accuracy

Dude, that' so rude. Discounting peoples advice and opinions for their basis. How am I not to take that as a direct jab at my self as well? There's nothing wrong, or oppressive about taking advice for history. People here need to stop doing this. What's worse, in this case, my (I'd assume, our) modern sensibilities go hand in hand with the historic. They, like us, want war ships to look intimidating, that's why blacked hulls with bold colors like yellow and red were the norm; it looks like something dangerous, like a poisonous plant or a stinging insect. Even with out that basis I'd have voted for the tan with red pin stripe. I don't find green to be a very intimidating color.

 

As for Lydia, do as you will, she's your brain child. The third mast, though, is a small one with a tiny sail (no larger than the first head sail) and in this case and woudn't interfere with the main mast. It can also be canted back, like the fore mast rakes forward.

[Wellesley]

@kurigan I'm sorry, if you read it this way. I had no intention to discount anyone, let alone you.

I purposely wrote it that way, because I wanted to collect opinions with more attention to the colours alone, precisely because I thought a lot of people would give different advise with and without considering historical accuracy. Even if I cannot always incorporate it or decide against a suggestion, most times my questions involve a deep interest for accuracy. So this time I just stated that the question has another focus. If there was any second thought in the formulation, it was an early excuse for showing a picture of the green stripe.

I really appreciate your responds in general, precisely for their informational value.
Hope, we can rest the case, I admit that it was not the best phrasing.

 

Anyways, I'm all back to black now for another reason, namely the problem of mirroring the coloured stripe at the bow.

[kurigan]

@Wellesley of course you and I can bury the hatchet. I just don't expect it to be last time I see someone here saying "Hay all, I want free advice and information, but not form any of those people"  We're cool though. 

 

Not sure what you mean by "mirroring the coloured stripe at the bow"..?

[Wellesley]

"mirroring the coloured stripe at the bow"

Just a continuation of the stripe. I watched the ship with the red stripe from a distance and felt the urge to add a little bit of colour to the forepart. It looked "unbalanced".
Though in any case just one plate thick, I wasn't happy with the results, I was best to leave the bow as it is. I then removed all colour together and am quite content.

Hope, that was easier to understand, its always a struggle for me to come up with comprehensible depictions.

 

As for the Lydia, I'm less concerned about adding a third mast, more so about how currently the deck extension turned out. But as I'm writing, I have another idea, maybe later I have time to try it out and post pictures.

[TomSkippy]

@Wellesley the black davits look best. Imo davits can be tough. Lego ships are generally compromises in size, one result (for me at least) is it can make the davits seem either too big, too long, or just awkward. The black ones look more natural to me.

Also, your brig turned out phenomenally. I’m usually a little skeptical of the prefab base (they can look too tall/bulky/jagged). All I can say is “wow”. 

[Wellesley]

The Ymir is finally finished:

My biggest disapproval are some of the reeflines. I had to change the rope after two sails and the second coil always faned out. It was only today, that I realized, one cord was missing, the first was made of four, the later only of three. It doesn't stand out that much where the rope is uner tension, but the reef lines are just hanging loose. Well, I can (should) live with that. The rest turned out quite to my liking. The next ship will have better backstays, though I made friends with the 3-lenght technic pins after all.

Tomorrow I will make some more pictures, with sailors and background. As well as an official entry.

 

[TomSkippy]

Here's a different Brig WIP. Currently there are 4... 1 needs a dozen pieces and rigging. 2 are done in LDD but haven't been built. This one is (very) loosely based on the USS Niagara or a Cruizer-class brig sloop. She also started as a CGH ship, but then I wanted to tweak it (if I didn't, I feel like it'd look like a bad Netflix adaptation of @Wellesley's wonderful Ymir). I'm not fully happy with it, but I'm not really sure why. What would you do? Please critique her!

Zoomed Out:

Stern:

Bow:

@kurigan I realize that this one is not waterline (yet doesn't show everything below it). Somehow I struggle moving away from this. It might be that my whole pirate experience started with Lego. If the build shows everything, it looks too bulky to me (I even feel this way about model ships)... if the build shows just the waterline, it looks a little thin to me. You'll need to forgive me this choice!!

P.S. Hull isn't painted, it's electrical tape!

[Wellesley]

@TomSkippy Well first, I like her very much as she is right now. Though I have some points, I would have done different.

The most minor changes would be the height of the companionway and  the shape of the deck. It gets a plate higher at the sides, while usually it would curve the opposite way. I don't know, if you are able to swap the hinges from white to black and drop them by a few plates and put the tiles underneath the middle part of the deck. If not, that wouldn't be a big displeasure, once looking at the finished result.

The base of the companionway could be lowered one plate I think. Besides the door and the roof, I would try out all in tan.

I would have done another step of diminution towards the stern. Probably right before the last gunport. The stern would then have either three studs between the astern gunports or five with only the one stud of the bulwark besides them. In comparison my brig is two studs wider at the widest part and their lenghts are nearly the same.

Unfortunately the black bow part is three studs wide and abruptly ends the fine line of the bulwark.
Maybe you could try to cover it with adding such a foredeck as well as little opened poopdeck:

I was never a fan of those, but it could be a fitting solution for your ship.

Your white stripe keeps it thickness astern, while getting narrower towards the bow. Though for the USS Niagara it seems to be the case, I would diminute it like on my brig.

This shot looks great!

Don't care so much about the waterline. Most of my ships show plenty of the hull beneath, yet never the full. For a diorama with water you could easily place them on different levels of heigth, so they would fit to each other. And the water covers the rest. I find it quite helpful to start a bit lower. Makes it easier to have a stabile base you can put all the above-water-stuff on.