1 minute ago, Capt Wolf said:

@Sir Stig, Kai read it the way I intended it: If you have 7 players with 1 vote each on the council, you need at least 4 voters to make up a quorum, but all votes are decided best out of 7, regardless of how many votes are cast. Therefore, you need 4 votes to pass a bill.

Okay, then it was confusing enough  But I do not agree completely. It all depends on how much political drama we want. If we want more we could use that model for quorum/passing the bill, but each member gets 3 votes. possible to divide any way they like between 2 cases. That would add a lot of intrigue. We basically want the same (all things shiny), so the drama would spin around who gets what first, and what strategies to use. I believe discussions leads to a better understanding and different views enlightens a case, so the solution that benefits the most can be chosen. The ones, if any, that don't benefit, would get good arguments for the next time.

@Sir Stig - I agree that we should use some name other than Prime Minister or Premier Magistrate (so far I'd simply adopted the term because it's hard to discuss a nameless position); Stattholder or something similar is a good option.

Elostirion has only replied once to this thread, but I believe he doesn't intend to actually try to break with Eslandola; that was an in-character measure.

35 minutes ago, Sir Stig said:

Okay, then it was confusing enough  But I do not agree completely. It all depends on how much political drama we want. If we want more we could use that model for quorum/passing the bill, but each member gets 3 votes. possible to divide any way they like between 2 cases. That would add a lot of intrigue. We basically want the same (all things shiny), so the drama would spin around who gets what first, and what strategies to use. I believe discussions leads to a better understanding and different views enlightens a case, so the solution that benefits the most can be chosen. The ones, if any, that don't benefit, would get good arguments for the next time.

Yes, it was confusing! And I'm cool with the each-player-gets-3-votes model (in which case the key numbers above would be 11 out of 21); I just used the 1-player/1-vote model to try to keep the example simple.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think we are pretty close to agreement among those who have weighed in on what form the colonial council would take:

* 7 members -- 1 for each of the 3 TCs (selected by TC members), 1 for each of the 3 regions (selected by citizens of that region) (with new regions resulting in new seats in the future), and 1 independent seat (selected by players not aligned with a TC)

* Each player in the colonial council would get 3 votes (presumably cast by 3 different characters, thus splitting the 3 votes is possible)

* 11 votes (out of 21, or 51% of total "characters" in the council) needed to pass a bill

* A singular elected leader, called a Prime Magistrate or Stadtholder or some such

* If a veto of actions by the continental council is needed (and some continental council -- i.e. leadership -- items could not be vetoed), a 2/3 vote (14 of 21) would be needed

Some things that appear to still need to be determined:

* Does the PM/Stadtholder always get a vote, or just in the case of ties (only possible at the moment if the vote is 10-10 with an abstention)? (and if he gets a vote, does that count against the quorum/51% requirements?)

* Is the PM/Stadtholder elected by the colonial council, or by the populace at large?

* How often are elections held (every 6 months? 9 months? annually?)

* Are council members and the PM/Stadtholder paid positions?

* Will the Fontanajos support the colonial council concept?

What else?

Edited November 17, 20168 yr by Capt Wolf

49 minutes ago, Sir Stig said:

...but each member gets 3 votes. possible to divide any way they like between 2 cases...

Not sure if you knew it, but this has already been mentioned, and I'm definitely in favor of it.  I think it could be great fun to have two characters that vote your way, and one who is always on the wrong side.  

Good summary there Capt Wolf!  Beat me to it.

14 minutes ago, Capt Wolf said:

* Does the PM/Stadtholder always get a vote, or just in the case of ties (only possible if the vote is 10-10 with an abstention)? (and if he gets a vote, does that count against the quorum/51% requirements?)

* Is the PM/Stadtholder elected by the colonial council, or by the populace at large?

* How often are elections held (every 6 months? 9 months? annually?)

* Are council members and the PM/Stadtholder paid positions?

* Will the Fontanajos support the colonial council concept?

1. After thinking about this for a while, I'm in favor of the PM (for simplicity I'm gonna stick with that abbreviation for now) not having a vote.  It would be his job to bring matters up and to make sure things are voted upon within the appropriate time frame.  Of course other members can also make proposals, but it would be the PMs job especially to keep tabs on things.

2. We should have at least one seat elected by the populace at large, and it's fine for that one to be the PM.

3. Six months is probably a good term, and the council can always vote on a change if it's found to be inadequate.

4. I think 25 DBs won't hurt the state none, won't make y'all rich neither.  And the PM can have 50.

5. I'm not qualified to answer that one. 

Three other questions:

6. Will members be fined for absence?  (In which case there should be three votes possible: yes, no, abstaining; so that members can abstain without being fined.)
> I think yes; 100 DBs, but writing a letter of excuse ahead of time (sent to the PM privately, so that he can present it to the council) should exonerate them. [Edit: 500 DB fine for an absent PM, and a 500 DB fine for two letters of excuse in a row from a PM.]

7. What is the time frame in which votes are expected to be cast?
> Two weeks?  This should be fast enough to handle business in time, but slow enough to enable members to be sure not to miss things.

8. What degree of privacy/secrecy do we want here?  Should the Council meetings be held in open forum, or in PM threads?  What would the procedure for a secret ballot be?

Also, as the idea of giving titles has been floating around, I think with 21 characters in the council, certain members could be given titles tagged to a specific character that don't relate to actual duties.  I mean, who wants to be titled Treasurer of Eslandola if they actually have to do the work?  Just call a character that for bragging rights, based on a few speeches.

You could simply let the Stadtholder (or whatever he is called) have tie breaking abilities at all times. Give him a vote which he can cast like everyone else, and in the event of a tie, his vote simply counts as "1.1" vote so to speak. That way, you won't have to change anything when more regions are added, as the Stadtholder will be able to break any tie.

I still do not understand why you don't go with 1 man 1 vote. While I see the storybuilding potential, you have to consider both that the issues will be as "real" as they can be for Eslandola, and that somewhat will have to build these stories. As to the first point, I see an issue in having one of your own characters vote against your own interest, and as to the latter, I am certain there will be plenty of story building potential in the system already. The drama can be played out in the organisations behind each representative. (Maestro, Prio Seas, EWTC, etc.)

As to Kai's points 6 through 8, why don't you let the council decide on these practical manners themselves?

Btw, since when is Eslandola using Dutch sounding titles?

I always figured: Oleon = France, Corrington = UK, Eslandola = Spain. After Ska revealed his plans for Mardier, I reconsidered it like so: Mardier = Spain, Eslandola = Portugal. Should I reconsider once more?

I thought Altonia was the Dutch country of BoBS.

Of course, I am aware that a lot of the people behind the Eslandians are Dutch...

#Dramandola

Edited November 17, 20168 yr by Bregir

6 minutes ago, Bregir said:

...As to Kai's points 6 through 8, why don't you let the council decide on these practical manners themselves? ...

What?  Let the council decide if it wants to fine itself? 

Really though, I think those are points that should be written into the constitution of the council, not developed by the council to potentially change with every change of members.

8 minutes ago, Bregir said:

...I still do not understand why you don't go with 1 man 1 vote. While I see the storybuilding potential, you have to consider both that the issues will be as "real" as they can be for Eslandola, and that somewhat will have to build these stories. As to the first point, I see an issue in having one of your own characters vote against your own interest, and as to the latter, I am certain there will be plenty of story building potential in the system already...

Of course, if you were really concerned for a particular vote, you wouldn't vote against yourself.  But for average ordinary votes where your preferred policy isn't likely to lose, why not have a character that votes against you?
As for building the stories, no one would have to actually use the mechanism if he didn't want to.
But for me the main argument is this: out of 15 active Eslandians, it would be ridiculous to try to have 21 council members.  But, we're hoping that there are several thousand minifigures populating New Eslandola, aren't we?  It seems awfully oligarchical to have those thousands "represented" by 7 characters.

11 minutes ago, Bregir said:

...Btw, since when is Eslandola using Dutch sounding titles?  ...

We use whatever we please!   However, I do think that we should be able to find something better than the Dutch Stadtholder.  That doesn't sound Eslandian.
And yeah, I think generally we're closer to Portugal.  We kind of have the architecture of Spain, but we don't have the attitude Spain had towards trading, or government.  I don't know a whole lot about Portuguese culture though, but I have the impression that they were more traders than Spain was.  Still, I think we resemble Holland, and even England, in many ways.

9 minutes ago, Bregir said:

You could simply let the Stadtholder (or whatever he is called) have tie breaking abilities at all times. Give him a vote which he can cast like everyone else, and in the event of a tie, his vote simply counts as "1.1" vote so to speak. That way, you won't have to change anything when more regions are added, as the Stadtholder will be able to break any tie.

I still do not understand why you don't go with 1 man 1 vote. While I see the storybuilding potential, you have to consider both that the issues will be as "real" as they can be for Eslandola, and that somewhat will have to build these stories. As to the first point, I see an issue in having one of your own characters vote against your own interest, and as to the latter, I am certain there will be plenty of story building potential in the system already. The drama can be played out in the organisations behind each representative. (Maestro, Prio Seas, EWTC, etc.)

What I was thinking behind it is best shown in an example:

1 A case where a new tax against bacon are up for voting.

2 Taking action against Oleon.

Colonel Oystridge, mayor of Bardo would like to have good relations to Oleon, since Bardo are close to Lebellan, and reinforcements have to travel far. But since he also loves bacon, and want to promote Bardo cuisine, he also wants to avoid bacon tax. This is where I would have to get my priorities straight. Should I accept a tax on bacon to retain good relations with Oleon, or should I keep my bacon affordable for all, at the risk of all out war. I could also gamble by, for example, putting two votes against bacon tax, and one against actions against Oleon. It adds spice to the process, and adds fuel for storytelling as you mentioned. A single vote would quickly come to a point where the outcome of most cases will be somewhat predictable. Trade offs will happen more often, which is a major factor in politics. As a fan of improvisation and change, I think this is a better model. But it all depends on how much realism and politics people really want, or if the whole process is just a necessary evil.

3 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

We use whatever we please!   However, I do think that we should be able to find something better than the Dutch Stadtholder.  That doesn't sound Eslandian.
And yeah, I think generally we're closer to Portugal.  We kind of have the architecture of Spain, but we don't have the attitude Spain had towards trading, or government.  I don't know a whole lot about Portuguese culture though, but I have the impression that they were more traders than Spain was.  Still, I think we resemble Holland, and even England, in many ways.

I've always thought that Eslandola was a mix of Spanish and Dutch, the trade companies being the Dutch element. The Dutch were once subject to Spain, after all. With the recent revelations about Mardier being Spain, perhaps Portugal substitutes for Spain in that model. But what we're doing is much more similar to the founding of the Dutch Republic in the 16th/17th C than the founding of Portugal's constitutional monarchy in the 19th C. Besides, I like the architecture.

Okay, if we do away with the MOC competition aspect then, here are my ideas:

The Colonial Council should then have all seats as player controlled, but the seats will have different votes value. The seafarers' seats should then be a simple one seat/one vote for the TCs and independents. The islands' seats should be one per city, but the size of the city should determine the amount of votes their seat gets: small-3, medium-5, large-7. The different vote values are to add incentive to build for the towns' size. The PM gets one vote only if there is a 50/50 tie.

Among the Colonial Council there needs to be a Speaker of the Assembly. This would be a council member who gets voted on by the assembly, one seat/one vote. This is modeled after the US House of Representatives. Their responsibilities will be to receive all legislation players wish to bring to the assembly (probably PMs), and create the assembly voting threads for legislation. Those threads would also include 'speeches' for and/or against the legislation. Extra pay for extra work.

There should be a legislation vote period, and a week seems fair. If you miss it, your vote(s) gets registered as abstain.

To be eligible for any government office, you must be an Eslandola citizen. To be eligible for any islands' seat you must be a builder that adds to that city's size (so hinterland builds count). To be eligible for a TC seafarers' seat you have to be a member of that TC. Any non-TC member is eligible for the independents' seat. Any Eslandola citizen is eligible for the PM (or whatever we name it) office.

Who votes on what:

To vote for a seat, you should be eligible for that seat.

Elections process:

We need a Supervisor of Elections (one of the leadership?) to be responsible for managing an elections thread. The thread should consist of a list of all seats available, and who is eligible for/can vote on the seats. This is where a character should state their intent to run for a seat. There should be a week for the intent statements.

Then each character running should create a campaign thread, and make at least a small vig (min 8x8) announcing their character's candidacy. These should be made by a week after the intent deadline, and links to these should be added to the intent statement posts.

There should then be an additional campaigning period, where the candidates make their case, and reply to questions, in their thread. Additional campaign MOCs should be linked in this thread.

Voting should begin a week into the campaign period, and continue for four days after. Eleven days to get your ballot in should be enough. This would give us a 32 day elections cycle: I'm thinking May 1st to June 1st.

Ballots could look like this:
PM, or whatever title: name of character (name of player)
Seafarer seat name: name of character (name of player)
Island seat name: name of character (name of player)
Other island seat name if eligible: name of character (name of player)

If we want secret ballots, they could be in a PM to the Supervisor of Elections. If not, then a single ballot post in the elections thread.

After all the Colonial Council members are voted in, they have a public vote on the Speaker of the Assembly, with an intent period (4 days) and a vote period (5 days). If you miss the vote, yours gets registered as abstain. Just like with legislation, the PM only gets one vote in case of a tie.

Since there are likely to be more seats than players wishing to be in government, a player should be able to run for as many Colonial Council seats as they are eligible for, but each seat would require a separate character. If you have a character running for PM, you should not have another run for any other office.

Edited November 17, 20168 yr by gedren_y

Alright, I see others have been working on summaries too, but here goes for mine   It's about time for a frontpage update to help new comers get a grasp of where we are without having to read all four pages, at any rate!

Note that these are not all necessarily final, but only appear to be where we are heading right now.  If you've got any questions/suggestions/comments, don't be afraid to share them!

 

1. The Old World/Continental/High Council has the following prerogatives:

   For forts, troops, and ships:

   The New World Council decides by vote when and how many troops or ships to raise, above the automatic game thresholds (3 ships, 1 company per island, etc.).  By default, the Old World Council decides where these should go (i.e. fills out the paperwork), but they can be overruled by the New World should they put it to vote, up to 1/2 of the total available military or navy: i.e. if we have 4 ships, and the Old World Council wants them to go on a Pirate Purge, but the New World Council wants them to go on Trade Routes, the New World can overrule for 2 of those ships, but not for the other two.

   For declaring war:

   The Old World Council does the actual declaration.  Both Councils must always be agreed, however, for a war to be initiated.

   For making treaties:

   The Old World Council signs the treaty into law, but it must be ratified by the New World Council prior to signing.

   For creating monopolies:

   The New World Council proposes & votes upon these, but the Old World Council (and BoBS leadership in general) possess veto power.

   For the granting of charters for TCs, Settlements, and/or Royal Properties:

   The Old World Council decides, but the New World can veto within 2 weeks by a 2/3s majority.  [Edit: That would be vetoing a yes, of course.  A no can't be vetoed.]

2. All other things outside of the above (such as taxation, etc., etc.) belong to prerogative the Colonial Council, not subject to the High Council’s veto.

 

1. The seats on the Colonial Council will be distributed thusly:

There are 7 seats – 1 for each of the 3 TCs (selected by TC members as they please), 1 for each of the 3 regions (selected by citizens of that region as they see fit, with new regions resulting in new seats in the future), and 1 independent seat (selected by players not aligned with a TC).

Each player in the Colonial Council gets 3 votes, which would in-story be cast by three different members of the council all controlled by that one member of Eslandola.

There is also one Prime Magistrate/Minister/Stadtholder position in the Colonial Council, who would be the Council’s leader, and would be in charge of seeing that business is taken care of.  The member controlling the Prime Minister would not be able to sit at the same time in the council, but would instead receive 5 votes, to indicate that that party is likely in the majority (one Prime Minister vote, and four other members of the council controlled by the same member of Eslandola).  Note that this is still under deliberation, and that possibly the Stadtholder would only be able to vote in the case of a tie – but, as it is the most important and will likely be the most contested position of the council, I really think that the votes allowed to him ought to reflect that - remember that the member with this position could quite possibly be giving up a normal seat in the council.

The Prime Minister/etc. position would be filled with the winner of a contest at the end of each PM term, which would involve building and campaigning, and he would be elected by the whole nation of Eslandola.  Note that this is also under discussion, and that the other possibility is that he would be elected by the council – but I really think that we definitely need at least one seat elected by the populace at large, and given the importance of this seat, the campaigning part of the race, and that the other one possibly up for public election was decided instead in favor of a free trader/independent seat, I really think the first option is the one we should go for.  A possible mix would be that three candidates would be chosen out of however many there were by the council, prior to a general election on those members.

A 51% majority of the total members of the council would be needed to pass any bill – 14 votes (out of 26, the total number of characters on the council, supposing that the PM receives the 5 votes).  The other possibility (which I myself would be in favor of) would be that only a 51% of the members actually sitting in the council would be needed to pass a bill (that allows for the possibility of bribing someone not to show up in order for a bill to pass, and not only, as in the other case, for a bill to fail [all absentees being counted as againsts] – and since we don’t seem to be against the idea of leaving the door open for bribing, I can’t see why we would want to close the door just half the way!)  Under either possibility, at and rate, members not showing up would be subject to a fine.

 

As to the other questions (these are just my own opinions now):

How often are elections held?

I'd say we should have the Council elections 3 or 4 times in a year, and the Prime Minister/whatever you like to call him one twice a year.  The reason for the shorter election time periods is that I really don't think that all members who would want to participate on the council would be able to commit themselves for, say, being around for half a year! - and I don't think we ought to depend on every member of the council being there that often.  The Prime Magistrate, on the other hand, would obviously have to be committed to a certain degree, but even there I really don't think it should exceed 6 months.  And both of those would be particularly important if we are going to install the fine.

Are council members and the PM/Stadtholder paid positions?

I'm with Kai - 25DBs for each member, and 50DBs for the PM.

Will members be fined for absence?  (In which case there would be the possibility of abstaining)
I pretty much agree with Kai here too, although a little smaller of a fine (50DBs for a member, and 250 for the Stadtholder) might be better

Quote

 I think yes; 100 DBs, but writing a letter of excuse ahead of time (sent to the PM privately, so that he can present it to the council) should exonerate them. [Edit: 500 DB fine for an absent PM, and a 500 DB fine for two letters of excuse in a row from a PM.]

What is the time frame in which votes are expected to be cast?
I'd think it would depend at times on the pressure for the bill to be addressed, but 2 weeks sounds good off the bat.  I'm not sure that this would necessarily need to go into the constitution, but perhaps it would be better so! 

 

There are a few other questions, and I'm sure I missed some things in the questions and the summary, but that's enough for me for now!  What we really need to do is to make sure that the basic outline above (the summary) is finalized and approved by all or at least the great majority of Eslandolans, and than we can go on to address some of the smaller points.

The next few things to do, at any rate, would be to write the constitution (incorporating the final decisions on the points above), pen a Bill of Rights (basic rights and limits within which the Council must operate), and once and for all, to write out that elusive Magna Charta in pen and ink!  

1 hour ago, Garmadon said:

 

There is also one Prime Magistrate/Minister/Stadtholder position in the Colonial Council, who would be the Council’s leader, and would be in charge of seeing that business is taken care of.  The member controlling the Prime Minister would not be able to sit at the same time in the council, but would instead receive 5 votes, to indicate that that party is likely in the majority (one Prime Minister vote, and four other members of the council controlled by the same member of Eslandola).  Note that this is still under deliberation, and that possibly the Stadtholder would only be able to vote in the case of a tie – but, as it is the most important and will likely be the most contested position of the council, I really think that the votes allowed to him ought to reflect that - remember that the member with this position could quite possibly be giving up a normal seat in the council.

The Prime Minister/etc. position would be filled with the winner of a contest at the end of each PM term, which would involve building and campaigning, and he would be elected by the whole nation of Eslandola.  Note that this is also under discussion, and that the other possibility is that he would be elected by the council – but I really think that we definitely need at least one seat elected by the populace at large, and given the importance of this seat, the campaigning part of the race, and that the other one possibly up for public election was decided instead in favor of a free trader/independent seat, I really think the first option is the one we should go for.  A possible mix would be that three candidates would be chosen out of however many there were by the council, prior to a general election on those members.

A 51% majority of the total members of the council would be needed to pass any bill – 14 votes (out of 26, the total number of characters on the council, supposing that the PM receives the 5 votes).  The other possibility (which I myself would be in favor of) would be that only a 51% of the members actually sitting in the council would be needed to pass a bill (that allows for the possibility of bribing someone not to show up in order for a bill to pass, and not only, as in the other case, for a bill to fail [all absentees being counted as againsts] – and since we don’t seem to be against the idea of leaving the door open for bribing, I can’t see why we would want to close the door just half the way!)  Under either possibility, at and rate, members not showing up would be subject to a fine.

Some thoughts on the PM/Stadtholder:

* If the PM/Stadtholder can't hold a seat in the council, this may greatly drive down the number of candidates for the job. Since we already have a player on the council controlling 3 characters, what's the problem with a 4th? If a player wins election to both the council and PM/Stadtholder, then he's controlling 4 characters. This should ensure that players interested in running for Eslandola's highest elected office will run rather than choose to sit out due to fear of losing the council seat. This will all be much more interesting if we have several candidates.

* If you want added votes for the PM/Stadtholder, let's say his/her vote is equivalent to a council player's 3 characters, i.e., the PM/Stadtholder character gets 3 votes (although it can't be split up, as he/she is one character; it would be one vote that counts as three).

Additionally:

* Given that an abstention is the same as a "no" vote, I'd be agreeable to lowering the requirement for a bill to pass to that of simple majority of yea/nea votes cast. The abstentions and penalties seem like enough to ensure reasonable participation in the council.

34 minutes ago, Capt Wolf said:

* If the PM/Stadtholder can't hold a seat in the council, this may greatly drive down the number of candidates for the job. Since we already have a player on the council controlling 3 characters, what's the problem with a 4th? If a player wins election to both the council and PM/Stadtholder, then he's controlling 4 characters. This should ensure that players interested in running for Eslandola's highest elected office will run rather than choose to sit out due to fear of losing the council seat. This will all be much more interesting if we have several candidates.

Let anyone run for PM regardless of whether they have a seat already. If they win, their former seat must be refilled from the constituency. (Eg. a TC would appoint a substitute)

That's why I initially suggested you guys having the presidential elections first...

4 hours ago, gedren_y said:

Among the Colonial Council there needs to be a Speaker of the Assembly. This would be a council member who gets voted on by the assembly, one seat/one vote. This is modeled after the US House of Representatives. Their responsibilities will be to receive all legislation players wish to bring to the assembly (probably PMs), and create the assembly voting threads for legislation. Those threads would also include 'speeches' for and/or against the legislation. Extra pay for extra work.

I was thinking that would more or less be the PM (or Stadholder, or whatever)'s job.  I mean, what else is the PM supposed to do?

5 hours ago, Sir Stig said:

1 A case where a new tax against bacon are up for voting.

Just a comment on this: taxes or other legislation that are going to involve work on the part of the leadership team may for OOC reasons not be permitted or maybe revised/etc.  In the case of this specific example, that's all but impossible to automate, and bills of that nature just plain can't be passed.  (Something about this point, that legislation that exceeds the capacities of the system is invalid, should probably be written into the Constitution or Bill of Rights.)

1 hour ago, Bregir said:

Let anyone run for PM regardless of whether they have a seat already. If they win, their former seat must be refilled from the constituency. (Eg. a TC would appoint a substitute)...

That doesn't change the fact that if a PM position is seen as a) more work, and b) less influential than a normal position, players might be more keen on trying for a different seat (duh).  So I agree with Capt Wolf that either a PM should have a bigger vote & influence, or he should be elegible to hold two seats.

5 hours ago, gedren_y said:

We need a Supervisor of Elections (one of the leadership?) to be responsible for managing an elections thread. The thread should consist of a list of all seats available, and who is eligible for/can vote on the seats. This is where a character should state their intent to run for a seat. There should be a week for the intent statements.

Yes, leadership will have to handle elections.  It's our "job" to make sure things keep running, after all, and same as we run the main Challenges and the Trade Runs, we'll have to handle these.  Not to say we can't delegate in specific cases if someone wants to volunteer, of course, but we shouldn't saddle a member who's not also part of the leadership team with this sort of responsibility long-term.

 

Also just for information, though it seemed for a while like we were going to eliminate the 20% "matching" tax, that's now been decided in the negative, so that will stay.  However theoretically the 20% could be lowered (i.e. part of it could be refunded to members), or other taxes could be raised, etc.

18 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

Just a comment on this: taxes or other legislation that are going to involve work on the part of the leadership team may for OOC reasons not be permitted or maybe revised/etc.  In the case of this specific example, that's all but impossible to automate, and bills of that nature just plain can't be passed.  (Something about this point, that legislation that exceeds the capacities of the system is invalid, should probably be written into the Constitution or Bill of Rights.)

Fair enough, and it would be great to include what is possible and not possible to bring up to the council. BUT, it was only part of an example (bacon being the first that came to mind) to show how I meant 3 votes could be spread on different cases.

*I think of the hanseatic league when thinking of Eslandola, and I prefer if we manage to create our own distinctive flair, rather than being a copy of an existing nation. A mixture of Dutch, German, Portuguese, etc. Basically, inspiration from any successful trade and business empires are good models.

All in all I think this starts to look promising.

26 minutes ago, Sir Stig said:

Fair enough, and it would be great to include what is possible and not possible to bring up to the council. BUT, it was only part of an example (bacon being the first that came to mind) to show how I meant 3 votes could be spread on different cases...

Yes, of course I understood that it was just an example, but I figured I'd take the opportunity to mention that certain things, even though technically perhaps not susceptible to the Leadership Council veto, may simply fall outside of what the game system will allow for.

27 minutes ago, Sir Stig said:

*I think of the hanseatic league when thinking of Eslandola, and I prefer if we manage to create our own distinctive flair, rather than being a copy of an existing nation. A mixture of Dutch, German, Portuguese, etc. Basically, inspiration from any successful trade and business empires are good models.

Yes, that's kind of how I think of us too.  We take what we like from where we like.   Linguistically though, we've been sticking pretty close to Spanish/Portuguese, so we should probably stay with either that or plain English when it comes to titles.

I thought of the PM as the chief executive, not the chief legislator. He would only be involved in legislation if there is a tie. The problem with this is that much of the executive powers belong to the leadership. The position would be largely ceremonial, unless the PM could be in on the major decisions like diplomacy, naval deployments, or expeditions. The Continental Council's legislative decisions would still just be the leadership, so the PM would only affect the Colonial Council. The PM could be responsible for placing a bill before the assembly for a vote. If a bill meets the criteria to pass, then the PM signs it into law. There probably should be an MOC for that.

If we go with regional seats, that would cut down the player control needs, and keep the probability low that a player would control multiple seats. I still say the size of the cities in the region should help determine the number of votes for the region. The character voted to a seat with more than one legislature vote would be the head of a group of characters that would each cast one of the votes. These additional characters could split the votes, if the player chooses.

Also, players should have something built in the region to run for office there, and vote in the regional elections. That should give people more incentive to build in more places. Finding out who is eligible to vote for what seats might be the Supervisor of Elections' responsibility.

The seafarers' seats' running/voting eligibility will depend on the player's TC membership status.

I still think the Continental Council should consist of twelve characters, nine province leaders and three royalty. The fact that there is an odd number in the leadership means that there won't be a tie there. Each leader gets four characters in my scenario.

As to the titles, something close to the Spanish/Portuguese language is fine by me. The Truachesh have a Celtic style old tongue, but we are still a minority.

The PM could be partly inluded in the leadership team, and the main connection between the people, the council and the old world council. So it could become more than just ceremonial, unless we want it to be.

Edited November 17, 20168 yr by Sir Stig

Wow,

That was a lot of reading - I really like what you are hammering out here.  I will try and keep my input short and sweet.

Please no more than 3 elections a year, it'll become a nuisance quickly if it is more than that.

PM role should be possible in addition not instead of another seat - as per reasons given above.

I'd love to hear what is going to happen in Nellisa too - what's up E?

 

As somebody who doesn't want a seat on the council at least not for now I feel I have a bit less invested but I would say that I would never want to base political decisions on build offs between us in the faction - the ability to own bazillions of bricks and have dozens of hours to build every week shouldn't mean you can dictate policy to everyone else imho.

 

Enjoy your weekends folks.

 

btw I think the concept of adding intrigue into this is fun but let's remember we are still one faction and there are other colour flags sailing out on the Brick Seas..

Edited November 18, 20168 yr by Phadeout
forgetfullness

18 hours ago, Kai NRG said:

Linguistically though, we've been sticking pretty close to Spanish/Portuguese, so we should probably stay with either that or plain English when it comes to titles.

 

18 hours ago, gedren_y said:

As to the titles, something close to the Spanish/Portuguese language is fine by me.

In the ongoing search for a title for the top elected executive, what about Primeiro Vereador (First Councilman), or PV for short? (Or Primeiro Vereadora for First Councilwoman)

17 hours ago, Sir Stig said:

The PM could be partly inluded in the leadership team, and the main connection between the people, the council and the old world council. So it could become more than just ceremonial, unless we want it to be.

That seems like a reasonable interpretation. I've always imagined that the position will be more than ceremonial; he/she should have significant impact on Eslandola's development in the game, whether it be relations with other factions or directing activities within Eslandola.

2 hours ago, Phadeout said:

Please no more than 3 elections a year, it'll become a nuisance quickly if it is more than that.

I agree! I'd prefer no more than 2 per year, and I'd be ok with annual elections.

2 hours ago, Phadeout said:

 I would say that I would never want to base political decisions on build offs between us in the faction - the ability to own bazillions of bricks and have dozens of hours to build every week shouldn't mean you can dictate policy to everyone else imho.

I agree 100%.

2 hours ago, Phadeout said:

PM role should be possible in addition not instead of another seat - as per reasons given above.

Sorry, I can't quite follow which version you're supporting here, @Phadeout. Could you clarify?

2 hours ago, Phadeout said:

btw I think the concept of adding intrigue into this is fun but let's remember we are still one faction and there are other colour flags sailing out on the Brick Seas..

Hear, hear! Let's make the best government for us; intrigue should be a result of the game itself. The simple fact that we're getting more hands-on with our governance will lead to enough intrigue by itself! Besides, most of the intrigue in the game should happen on the seas, if we ever get back to that.

@Capt Wolf essentially as you stated, what harm does it cause to be PM and a councillor. Got to be a perk to doing all the actual work! And we don't want to put somebody off from the role due to less personal representation than a regional council member for example.

21 hours ago, gedren_y said:

There probably should be an MOC for that.

Maybe, but who on earth would build all those?  Would be a handy deterrent for meaningless regulation though, I suppose. 

21 hours ago, gedren_y said:

...keep the probability low that a player would control multiple seats...

  I had sort of assumed that players simply wouldn't be allowed multiple seats, except potentially in the case of PM.

21 hours ago, gedren_y said:

Also, players should have something built in the region to run for office there, and vote in the regional elections. That should give people more incentive to build in more places. Finding out who is eligible to vote for what seats might be the Supervisor of Elections' responsibility.

Certainly, one of the requirements to vote or run in a region should be having MOCed in that region.  Probably, if you hold a civil office (i.e. mayor) in a region, you automatically are part of that region; if not, you can choose from among regions you've built in.

5 hours ago, Phadeout said:

btw I think the concept of adding intrigue into this is fun but let's remember we are still one faction and there are other colour flags sailing out on the Brick Seas..

Right.  Let's not let those blues and reds talk us into building a system of inherent squabbling!
I mean, it's not like the squabbling won't come anyways... 

3 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

...In the ongoing search for a title for the top elected executive, what about Primeiro Vereador (First Councilman), or PV for short? (Or Primeiro Vereadora for First Councilwoman)...

Probably one of the better names so far, but still doesn't quite ring right to me... too busy atm for brainstorming, though.

3 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

That seems like a reasonable interpretation. I've always imagined that the position will be more than ceremonial; he/she should have significant impact on Eslandola's development in the game, whether it be relations with other factions or directing activities within Eslandola.

The PM can probably certainly be involved in the Eslandola-specific leadership discussions at the bare minimum.

Shall we discuss the regional divisions on the map? What do we call these regions?

I was thinking about calling them Constellations (or some variation on that). The reasoning being these regions would be made up of islands that are not likely to be directly next to each other. Take the map, remove all areas that firmly belong to another faction (leave on the shared and the disputed), make those islands white and the seas black, and connect the dots in groupings that make sense. That's where I get Constellations. Neither of the terms state or province makes much sense for a group of loosely related islands. Think about it: The Colonial Constellations of Eslandola.

Okay, guys, here’s the latest in Eslandrama!

Let us know what you think of these three state documents!  If you’ve got any revision suggestions, speak now or forever hold your peace (or at least, until we’ve set up the council and amendments can be broached).  After this is finalized, I’ll add a poll to this topic so everyone can easily vote for acceptance.

Since this is something I expect people to actually read (unlike most government documents, right?) I’ve dropped the elaborate style and just tried to get the point across without needless whereas’s and hitherto’s and furthermore’s, not to mention other sundry bombastic phrases designed to impress the common man with a healthy sense of aristocratic and governmental superiority (when, in fact, all they show is a lack of ability to talk plain English). 

Note the nomenclature especially please – we can discuss calling regions Constellations, and also I’ve named the Prime Minister “Chief Citizen,” but other suggestions have been made such as Stadtholder, Primeiro Vereador, Premier Magistrate, etc.

---

Magna Charta:

  Although in the ages of barbarianism and serfdom a King was essential to secure Eslandola from ravages without, the time has now come to require assurances from the King against ravages within.  The rights of a law-abiding citizen to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, demand that government be for the people; and to assure that, it must be by the people.  To achieve such a government in New Eslandola a convention is hereby authorized, whose decisions will become law.

  In recognition of the validity of this document, I, King Augusto Fernando VIII, do hereby sign my name:
Fernando Augusto

Fernando Augusto VII, King, Eslandola

---

Constitution: 
The Kingdom of Eslandola will be governed by two councils, the Continental Council and the Colonial Council.

The Continental Council, Section I:
a) The Continental Council will consist of the relevant BoBS leaders.
b) The Continental Council determines locations for troops, ships, and forts, but may be overruled up to half of the force in dispute by the Colonial Council.
c) The Continental Council alone has the prerogative to declare war, but may not do so without the express consent of the Colonial Council.
d) The Continental Council alone may sign treaties, but they must be ratified by the Colonial Council prior to signing.
e) The Continental Council may veto any monopoly.
f) The Continental Council has as its sole prerogative the granting of charters, including but not necessarily limited to charters for Trade Companies, Settlements, and Royal Properties.  A grant may be vetoed by the Colonial Council.
g) The Continental Council must supervise elections to the Colonial Council and must insure that elections be completed in a timely fashion.

Establishment of the Colonial Council, Section II:
a) The Colonial Council shall consist of eight positions; one position shall be granted to each recognized Trade Company (at the time of signing, East Trade-Wind Company, Merchant’s Colonial Trading Company, and Mpya-Stedor All-Encompassing Science, Trade & Resources Organization); one position shall be granted to independents; one position shall be granted to the representatives of each of the three regions; one position shall be reserved for a Chief Citizen elected by all citizens of Eslandola.
b) Each Trade Company may decide internally how to appoint or elect a member to its position.
c) The Independent Position shall be voted upon by all interested members of Eslandola not affiliated with a Trade Company.
d) The Regional Positions shall be voted upon by members of a region.  No member may vote in more than one region.  No member holding a position as Governor or Mayor may vote in a region outside of that in which he exercises authority.  No member may vote in a region in which he has not placed a build.  Regional Positions may be added by vote of the Colonial Council.
e) The Chief Citizen shall be elected by all citizens of Eslandola.  He shall be responsible for seeing bills through to their conclusion, for announcing the results of a vote, for communication with the Continental Council, and for keeping peace within the Colonial Council.
f) Each position shall consist of three seats, or three votes, to be used as the member holding the position deems fit.
g) Elections shall be held once every four months, except in the case of the Chief Citizen, which shall be held once every sixth months.
h) Campaigns shall begin one month before the election begins.  Campaigners must present a minifigure and a speech; further propaganda is left to each campaigner’s discretion.

Operation of the Colonial Council, Section III:
a) Each position shall be granted a salary of 25 DBs monthly, except in the case of Chief Citizen, who will be granted 50 DBs a month.
b) Any member who fails to register either a vote or an abstention, and has not sent a letter of excuse, shall be fined 100 DBs, except in the case of the Chief Citizen, whose disappearance without a letter of excuse shall be penalized by 500 DBs.  Two letters of excuse in succession from the Chief Citizen shall result in a fine of 500 DBs.
c) Any resolution shall be passed by a majority of 51% of total seats, save in the case of veto upon the Continental Council, which shall be passed when relevant by a majority of 66% of total seats.
d) The Colonial Council shall hold its meetings in a designated thread, but may adjourn by vote to a private thread for a specific length of time.
e) The Colonial Council shall vote openly, but may determine by vote upon a secret ballot at any time.

Prerogatives of the Colonial Council, Section IV:
a) The Colonial Council shall decide by vote when and how many troops, ships, or forts to build, raise, disband, or sell, above the automatic thresholds.
b) The Colonial Council may overrule (up to half of the forces available) the disposition of forces made by the Continental Council by a veto vote.
c) The Colonial Council may not declare war, but must approve for any war to be declared.
d) The Colonial Council may not sign treaties, but must ratify prior to their signing.
e) The Colonial Council may propose and vote upon new monopolies, but the Continental Council possesses veto power.
f) The Colonial Council may veto any charter granted by the Continental Council.
g) The Colonial Council may determine when to recognize a chartered Trade Company, admitting them to a permanent seat on the Colonial Council.
h) The Colonial Council may raise or lower taxes by vote without let or hindrance.
i) Veto upon the Continental Council may only be considered for one month subsequent to the Continental Council’s decision.
j) The above provisions notwithstanding, the Colonial Council shall take no action disapproved by the leadership of the Brick Seas.

Judicial System, Section V:
a) All judicial cases will be decided by a jury randomly chosen from among active Eslandian members and presided over by a member of the Continental Council as judge.
b) The jury shall determine guilt; the judge shall pronounce the sentence.
c) Any citizen of Eslandola in good standing may bring a case to trial at the relevant time (quarterly).

---

Bill of Rights:

I. The right of each citizen of Eslandola to his own form of religion shall not be infringed.
II. The right of each citizen of Eslandola to a free expression of his sentiments upon his own property or upon public property shall not be infringed.
III. The right of each citizen of Eslandola to raise troops, establish forts, and license ships shall not be infringed.
IV. Private property of Eslandian citizens shall not be taken for public use without the consent of the owner.
V. This Bill of Rights notwithstanding, no member shall take action disapproved by the leadership of EuroBricks and/or the Brick Seas.

34 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

...Let us know what you think of these three state documents!  If you’ve got any revision suggestions, speak now or forever hold your peace (or at least, until we’ve set up the council and amendments can be broached).

I think King Fernando should capitalize the first letter of his name  

Seriously though, good job with the write-up!  There are a few things I'd like changed, though:

1. Chief Citizen - 'hem, not really a fan of that.  Both Prime Minister and Stadtholder are better than that in my opinion, but perhaps a different thing altogether would be better...

2. 37 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

   h) Campaigns shall begin one month before the election begins.  Campaigners must present a minifigure and a speech; further propaganda is left to each campaigner’s discretion.

   Well, if we're going to require a whole month for campaigning, three a year may just be a bit much!    I'd rephrase and change that to something like, "The floor for campaigning shall open two (or maybe three) weeks before the election begins," meaning that any time during those two weeks the campaigners could post their figs and start the propaganda - which would obviously usually continue until the election is over (that's probably what you meant anyways).  But really, I don't think more than three weeks would be good, since, supposing we have about a week of voting, that's already almost a month.

3. 43 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

   c) Any resolution shall be passed by a majority of 51% of total seats, save in the case of veto upon the Continental Council, which shall be passed when relevant by a majority of 66% of total seats.

   I still think we should require only 51% (or 66%, in the other case) of the voting seats - otherwise, whatever is the point of abstaining, since it is always exactly equivalent with a 'no'?

 

Other than that it looks great though, thanks for saving me the work of writing it up!  

What if soneone would want to resign?