On 9/4/2023 at 6:42 AM, MAB said:

The point was, if they brought out a theme with classic space characters, but had aliens in it and maybe different coloured windshields, would it (i) be well received and (ii) be treated as a continuation of classic space.

I believe the more they venture away from what is considered Classic Space and Space the less interest it will receive. It's no coincidence that sales started to drop when they messed up Space (and other themes) in the late 90s and early 00s. It might work if they have Classic Space as a separate subtheme instead of mixing like Space Police 3 did with the aliens, and the aliens as a separate subtheme but I wouldn't recommend doing that. Many of the alien based subthemes like UFO and Insectoids are really cool as standalone themes but doesn't mix all too well with the overall Space concept.  

  On 9/4/2023 at 7:04 AM, SpacePolice89 said:

I believe the more they venture away from what is considered Classic Space and Space the less interest it will receive. It's no coincidence that sales started to drop when they messed up Space (and other themes) in the late 90s and early 00s. It might work if they have Classic Space as a separate subtheme instead of mixing like Space Police 3 did with the aliens, and the aliens as a separate subtheme but I wouldn't recommend doing that. Many of the alien based subthemes like UFO and Insectoids are really cool as standalone themes but doesn't mix all too well with the overall Space concept.  

Just about every in-house action theme has sides now and has done for many years. When you consider themes like AC, GS, Atlantis, PQ, Ninjago, MK, NK, Chima, Hidden Side, MF, Pirates, Castle. Even the "real life" City has a higher than reality cops vs robbers. I'd be really surprised if LEGO did an action based theme that doesn't have some sort of conflict going on. Of course, City did have sub themes like Arctic which was more science and exploration, and that is where they have put the semi-realistic (without aliens) Space Exploration, in Space Port. I think kids have moved on compared to 40 years ago, and that if/when they do fantasy based Space again, they would have aliens in it leaving the non-alien based Space sets in City.

  On 8/30/2023 at 11:56 PM, Karalora said:

 what's left for vanilla Space to offer? And you could probably make a similar argument re: Castle.

That's the problem with this discussion here. 

Space often gets lumped in with pirates, city and castle as they were the old evergreen themes. But they are nothing alike.

Castle, pirates and city (/town whatever) are all based on real things, even the more fantastical elements are based on universal repeated ideas like witches, dwarves and dragons.

Space is based on an idea, a dream of the future, there are specific ways that castles should look, there's no specific way a spaceship should look. Yes there are different rules that different people would want a spaceship design to follow, and there are even different archetypes you could follow ( would a Steampunk spaceship be considered a 'Space' set? Dieselpunk, Atompunk?)

And that's the thing, I think Castle fans would mostly agree on what they want from a castle theme, say a new version of the 2010's Kingdoms with new (or old) heraldry, a few civilians (hopefully more than previously) maybe some outlaws ( good or evil) possibly some fantasy elements. Now every castle fan would agree that that was a castle theme, regardless of preferences on the small details, they (we) all want much the same thing. That is because a castle theme is much more unified idea than a space theme and, until we become a planet hopping spacefaring civilisation, it always will be and even then there will dreams of future different spaceships or whatever.

Space fans aren't so united because it's a much nebulous idea, much harder to please everyone. Some say half the galaxy squad sets aren't 'space' sets because they're just giant bugs, or only yellow, grey and blue classic space is real 'space', open cockpit? Not a 'space' set, includes aliens? Not a true 'space' set! No aliens? No sale! Looks too modern! Looks too futuristic! Looks too retro! 

You get the idea!

  On 9/4/2023 at 9:16 AM, MAB said:

I'd be really surprised if LEGO did an action based theme that doesn't have some sort of conflict going on. Of course, City did have sub themes like Arctic which was more science and exploration, and that is where they have put the semi-realistic (without aliens) Space Exploration, in Space Port. I think kids have moved on compared to 40 years ago, and that if/when they do fantasy based Space again, they would have aliens in it leaving the non-alien based Space sets in City.

You can have "conflict" without lumping several subthemes in one box. If you look at old catalogs and commercials there was a constant struggle between Futuron/SP1/M-Tron on one side and Blacktron on the other. All subthemes were sold concurrently but in separate boxes. Only larger Space Police sets had a Blacktron astronaut as a prisoner which was a very cool feature. I don't mind including a smaller "enemy" craft like Pirate often does but larger builds should be sold separately. And I find it very hard to believe that kids as a group makes decisions such as moving away from a certain style of Lego sets. They and their parents are stuck with what Lego chooses to offer them at that moment they buy sets. 

  On 9/4/2023 at 10:30 AM, SpacePolice89 said:

You can have "conflict" without lumping several subthemes in one box. 

They are still the same theme though, even if humans and aliens or team A and team B are split into different boxes. I think Agent Kallus has given a good summary of the issue with Space, it is an idea rather than reality and different people have different ideas what could be included. Especially different people in different generations. What pleased kids many decades ago won't necessarily be of interest now if it has not had continuity through those decades.

  On 9/4/2023 at 9:16 AM, MAB said:

I think kids have moved on compared to 40 years ago, and that if/when they do fantasy based Space again, they would have aliens in it leaving the non-alien based Space sets in City.

To be fair, 40 years ago, you had Luke vs Darth Vader, Joe vs Cobra, He-man vs Skeletor, Autobots vs Decepticons. Basically every popular action-figure-based toy had good guys vs bad guys.

This conflict wasn't (and isn't) typically seen in non-action figure toys, like toy cars (Hot Wheels), traditional construction toys (wooden blocks, Lincoln Logs), or "girl" toys like Barbie an other dolls.

So really it's not that kids have moved on, it's Lego that has moved on from being a traditional building block toy, to an action-figure based toy. Minifigs in this case.

This is another example of the "because kids" argument used to tell AFOLs they can't have what they want.

Edited September 4, 20231 yr by danth

  On 9/4/2023 at 10:02 AM, Agent Kallus said:

Space is based on an idea, a dream of the future, there are specific ways that castles should look, there's no specific way a spaceship should look. Yes there are different rules that different people would want a spaceship design to follow, and there are even different archetypes you could follow

There is truth in this, but I think it might be overstated.

I would argue that any historic theme is going to be based more on what popular culture thinks something should be than actual historic truth. Whether it's castles, ninjas, pirates, or vikings. They're going to be based more on movie portrayals of those times than anything else.

For spaceships, it's the same. I don't think "what popular culture thinks something should be" is that nebulous for space. An X-wing, Buck Rogers Thunderfighter, BSG Viper all look like they could exist in the same universe, largely because Ralph McQuarrie designed all of them. 40 years later, the Lightyear XL-15 looks like it would fit right in with them. Even all the space games have ships that look alike. This image from the new Starfield game looks like it could be from any space movie or space game:

That looks exactly like half the Space MOCs I see. Down to the pilot with helmet and air tank.

  On 9/4/2023 at 11:16 AM, MAB said:

They are still the same theme though, even if humans and aliens or team A and team B are split into different boxes.

Except it's annoying as hell when they're in the same boxes. I skipped many Mars Mission and Galaxy Squad sets when I wanted the very cool, relatively small "Good guy/Human" builds, but didn't want the large, ugly bad guy builds. The Lego bad guy builds are, universally, never as good. "Conflict in a box" also means poorer kids can't buy nearly as many sets because most of the small builds are in the same box with a larger build.

In the above sets, the human builds are small but awesome. The bad guys are weird, gruesome, and large. I don't care how much anyone likes the bad guys here, they should be in their own sets. Most kids are going to want the smaller good guy builds more than anything.

Hell, at least put builds of the same size in the same box. I hate it when there's a huge mech with a tiny, throwaway enemy build. As if they could possibly have a fair fight.

I wish lego would introduce us a new generation to Adventurer theme. 

  On 9/4/2023 at 4:51 PM, Lion King said:

I wish lego would introduce us a new generation to Adventurer theme. 

That's a very good idea. But where should they go? They have been to the desert, the jungle, the dinosaur island and to the mountains. Maybe Australia or sub Saharan Africa?

  On 9/5/2023 at 5:56 AM, SpacePolice89 said:

That's a very good idea. But where should they go? They have been to the desert, the jungle, the dinosaur island and to the mountains. Maybe Australia or sub Saharan Africa?

I don’t mind they go back to Egyptian desert, ruined temple in Amazon as lion gas there are new stories. How about Japanese temple on a remote island?

I know we still have dinosaur theme still on shelves, so dinosaur island is a no no. 

  On 9/5/2023 at 5:56 AM, SpacePolice89 said:

That's a very good idea. But where should they go? They have been to the desert, the jungle, the dinosaur island and to the mountains. Maybe Australia or sub Saharan Africa?

Underground could be an interesting direction, could be exploring ice caves/glaciers, volcanic tunnels, crystal caverns etc.

It's not like Adventurers were purely historic to begin with, like mummies and dinosaurs are already fantasy elements introduced with it (or left out easily enough).

Could even have some references to Rock Raiders or Power Miners, depending what the main goal of the theme will be, there's plenty of room to go either terrain/figure/explorer heavy , vs action/vehicle/monster oriented.

I'd prefer location based builds myself, but LEGO has shown it can balance location/vehicle/monster sets by keeping them seperate as seen with the Atlantis theme.

Edited September 5, 20231 yr by TeriXeri

  On 9/5/2023 at 12:47 PM, Lion King said:

How about Japanese temple on a remote island?

That would be cool. The largest set could be a huge temple.

I love the idea of resurrecting Adventurers in theory, but the one big caveat I have is that the classic theme tended to be very othering toward people of color. The protagonists were all implicitly white, and you can tell because the face prints for the Indian and Chinese characters had distinctly "ethnic" features, marking them as different. Fortunately, LEGO doesn't do that anymore--the same shapes for eyes and mouth are used for minifigs of every implied ethnicity. A multinational hero team who travels the globe helping out the downtrodden in whatever way is needed (retrieving stolen cultural treasures, disaster relief, etc.) could be a really great spin on the genre.

A theme set in Australia (whether it be something like "Outback Explorers" in City or something else) would be instant "shut up and take my money", I would buy every set in the line for sure (just as I have bought basically every other thing LEGO has put out that is Australian unless you count that overpriced Duplo animal set with the koala in it)

  On 9/6/2023 at 6:57 AM, jonwil said:

A theme set in Australia (whether it be something like "Outback Explorers" in City or something else) would be instant "shut up and take my money", I would buy every set in the line for sure (just as I have bought basically every other thing LEGO has put out that is Australian unless you count that overpriced Duplo animal set with the koala in it)

Sorry for my dumb question, but what is there in the outback that can be explored?

Personally i'd go for ancient Egypt, the Mesoamerican/South American jungle or East Asia. Maybe a jounery of Marco Polo but in a 1920s setting. Or steal ideas from Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:33 PM, Karalora said:

I love the idea of resurrecting Adventurers in theory, but the one big caveat I have is that the classic theme tended to be very othering toward people of color. The protagonists were all implicitly white, and you can tell because the face prints for the Indian and Chinese characters had distinctly "ethnic" features, marking them as different. Fortunately, LEGO doesn't do that anymore--the same shapes for eyes and mouth are used for minifigs of every implied ethnicity. A multinational hero team who travels the globe helping out the downtrodden in whatever way is needed (retrieving stolen cultural treasures, disaster relief, etc.) could be a really great spin on the genre.

I second that

Doesn't have to be "explorer", could be like the recent wildlife rescue sets which were kinda just about the wildlife (so many Australian animals they could make...)

 

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:33 PM, Karalora said:

I love the idea of resurrecting Adventurers in theory, but the one big caveat I have is that the classic theme tended to be very othering toward people of color. The protagonists were all implicitly white, and you can tell because the face prints for the Indian and Chinese characters had distinctly "ethnic" features, marking them as different. Fortunately, LEGO doesn't do that anymore--the same shapes for eyes and mouth are used for minifigs of every implied ethnicity. A multinational hero team who travels the globe helping out the downtrodden in whatever way is needed (retrieving stolen cultural treasures, disaster relief, etc.) could be a really great spin on the genre.

If I remember correctly the main bad guy in Adventurers is European. And what's wrong with non-European minifigures? If European knight minifigures have European facial features why can't Asian minifigures have Asian features? People nowadays are too sensitive. I'm Scandinavian and I think the Vikings theme is great even if many things are not 100 % historically accurate because that's not the purpose with toys. . 

Edited September 6, 20231 yr by SpacePolice89

  On 9/6/2023 at 3:16 PM, jonwil said:

Doesn't have to be "explorer", could be like the recent wildlife rescue sets which were kinda just about the wildlife (so many Australian animals they could make...)

 

Got it, thanks That would be nice indeed!

  On 9/6/2023 at 3:35 PM, SpacePolice89 said:

If I remember correctly the main bad guy in Adventurers is European. And what's wrong with non-European minifigures? If European knight minifigures have European facial features why can't Asian minifigures have Asian features? People nowadays are too sensitive. I'm Scandinavian and I think the Vikings theme is great even if many things are not 100 % historically accurate because that's not the purpose with toys. . 

What is so especially "European" about the face prints on knight minifigures?

  On 9/6/2023 at 4:36 PM, Karalora said:

What is so especially "European" about the face prints on knight minifigures?

Since the whole theme takes place in or is based on medieval Europe it's natural that the minifigs look European and many of them have facial Prints that are European looking like:

https://brickset.com/minifigs/cas523/castle-king-s-knight-armor-with-lion-head-with-crown-helmet-with-fixed-grille-blue-plume

https://brickset.com/minifigs/cas059

It's equally natural that minifigs from sets and themes based on other regions look like the people from that area and there's nothing wrong with that. Many people seem to think that any depiction of anyone not European is automatically racist. I don't like when political or ideological agendas are being imported into the fun and friendly world of Lego. Flesh colored minifigs was a huge step in the wrong direction, All people are equal and nothing represents that better than classic yellow minifigs.

  On 9/6/2023 at 4:59 PM, SpacePolice89 said:

Since the whole theme takes place in or is based on medieval Europe it's natural that the minifigs look European and many of them have facial Prints that are European looking like:

https://brickset.com/minifigs/cas523/castle-king-s-knight-armor-with-lion-head-with-crown-helmet-with-fixed-grille-blue-plume

https://brickset.com/minifigs/cas059

What makes those face prints European, exactly?

What race does this face print represent?

https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?P=3626bpb0534&idColor=3#T=C&C=3

How about this one?

https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?P=3626bpb0503#T=C&C=3

Or this one?

https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?P=3626cpb0857&idColor=3#T=C&C=3

Whatever answers you gave, how did you make that assessment?

  On 9/6/2023 at 5:29 PM, Karalora said:

What makes those face prints European, exactly?

Context and looks (fair hair and facial features) which is good when you want to portray a king or a knight. Similar faces exist for other cultures, for example the shogun and the ninjas from Ninja. Such special faces are good for such themes but personally I prefer the classic yellow smiley face and its variations. 

You haven't answered my questions. What about the faces you used as examples, makes them "European"? The red hair I'll grant you, but if the hair were recolored black, would they then be African or Asian? If not, why not?

What race(s) do my example faces read as to you? Why?

SpacePolice89 is either unavailable for the time being or uninterested in continuing this line of discussion, but I want to make my point.

A white person like myself and a Chinese person look far more alike than either of us looks like a typical LEGO minifig face such as the ones I linked to for examples. The minifig face is a heavily stylized cartoon toy that doesn't look very similar to any real person. It is only because our brains are hardwired to interpret two dots above a horizontal line as a face, that we can empathize with a minifigure as if it were a person at all. The only reason to interpret such a minifigure face as "white" is if you experience Caucasian features as "normal" and the features of other races as "unusual," requiring some particular additional detail to illustrate properly. Looked at objectively, a typical minifig face with highlighted dots for eyes and a simple line for a mouth can stand in for a human of any race or ethnicity equally well, because it looks equally like--that is to say, equally unlike--all of us.

What is "wrong" with non-European minifigs (such as the Chinese characters in the original Adventurers line) in this regard is that they emphasize the features of people of color as something "unusual" and imply that any minifig lacking these markers should be interpreted as white by default. And that's no good, because a regular undifferentiated minifig is supposed to be able to represent anyone.

@Karalora, well said!