Ideas for new Lego themes! (Non-licensed)

[MAB]

5 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

While I prefer unlicensed Lego I know it's not even possible that Lego would consider going mostly unlicensed in the near to mid term future. I'm only expressing my own wishes and preferences. Of course I wish the mistakes made in the late 90s wouldn't have happened but I have to accept the realities and see Lego for what it is today. I may be a little bitter because they took away almost all themes that I like and replaced them with licensed ones. 

People often blame licensed themes for taking away or replacing unlicensed ones, but there is not really any evidence that this is true. There are more unlicensed sets now than ever. Ninjago overlaps with many of the ideas from classic themes - they've done futuristic tech, supersonic type jets, mechs, dragons, historical architecture, ships, and so on. They also appeal to kids today that would have been buying classic themes decades ago.

[SpacePolice89]

9 hours ago, MAB said:

People often blame licensed themes for taking away or replacing unlicensed ones, but there is not really any evidence that this is true.

The evidence is right in front of us. Up until 1999 we had continuous releases of Space, then Star Wars came and that ended. The same with Castle up until 2000, then Harry Potter was launched and no more Castle. After that there have only been sporadic releases of Castle and Space and even that ended in the mid 2010s while there have been new waves of SW and HP every year. Don't get me wrong, I like SW and HP but I have little interest in their Lego versions. In an ideal world there would be room for all themes both licensed and unlicensed but Lego doesn't seem willing to have so many themes which is probably wise. Therefore I would like more room for the original themes and new themes in the same spirit like many of the ideas offered here. 

[MAB]

2 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

The evidence is right in front of us. Up until 1999 we had continuous releases of Space, then Star Wars came and that ended. The same with Castle up until 2000, then Harry Potter was launched and no more Castle. After that there have only been sporadic releases of Castle and Space and even that ended in the mid 2010s while there have been new waves of SW and HP every year. Don't get me wrong, I like SW and HP but I have little interest in their Lego versions. In an ideal world there would be room for all themes both licensed and unlicensed but Lego doesn't seem willing to have so many themes which is probably wise. Therefore I would like more room for the original themes and new themes in the same spirit like many of the ideas offered here. 

That is a coincidence. We have had plenty of Space and Castle themes since 2000 but presumably those were not selling that well enough to make them evergreen. Then Ninjago came along and captured the imagination of modern kids, and apart from the few years when it was planned to finish, after bringing it back it has gone from strength to strength and covered many ideas and the audience that those previous one year in-house themes would normally take. Licenced to non-licensed is about 50:50 when it comes to sets. It sometimes feels there is more licensed output as licensed themes tend to be smaller (and therefore more of them) compared to the big 3 in-house City, Friends and Ninjago.

[SpacePolice89]

2 hours ago, MAB said:

That is a coincidence. We have had plenty of Space and Castle themes since 2000 but presumably those were not selling that well enough to make them evergreen.

I believe not. To be successful a theme needs continuity and enough sets regardless if it's licensed or not. Even Star Wars wouldn't be successful if they released 5-6 set every five years.

[MAB]

15 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I believe not. To be successful a theme needs continuity and enough sets regardless if it's licensed or not. Even Star Wars wouldn't be successful if they released 5-6 set every five years.

There is a difference between being a success and becoming evergreen. And I don't think you can compare volume of sets from licensed and unlicensed as there are too many other factors, especially for current tie-ins. For example, was LOTR a success? Lone Ranger? POTC? Buzz Lightyear? Trolls and Minions? None became evergreen but that doesn't mean they were not successful.

Look at what happened with Ninjago. That was intended to be a fixed (3 year) run, then replaced by Chima which was meant to last for a similar time, to be replaced by Nexo Knights. Even though Ninjago was meant to be fixed length, they realised how successful it was and so rebooted it. The same did not happen for Chima or NK, suggesting those were not on the same scale as Ninjago. At the same time they were trying out Space themes - Alien Conquest, Galaxy Squad - as well as other themes such as Pharaoh's Quest, Monster Fighters, Atlantis, etc. If any of those had showed the promise that Ninjago did, I imagine they would have been repeated in some form. Ninjago only got its continuity and large numbers of sets because of how it was accepted by the audience. Whereas the Space themes (and Castle from ~2010-12) did not.

I still don't buy the argument that it is Star Wars and Harry Potter that are keeping Classic Space and Classic Castle themes off the shelves. I believe that LEGO sees no business case to bring back those as full evergreen themes as another in-house continous theme - Ninjago - covers the same buying population as those themes. Even if the storylines and minifigures are different, the set types (modern land and air vehicles, mechs, ancient buildings, ships, fantasy characters and dragons) overlap significantly with sets that the kids that might buy if they were into Space or Castle themes if they existed. In that sense, continuity and volume is killing Castle and Space since it is the continuity and volume of so many ideas and themes that go into Ninjago year after year that means those ideas are not explored in other themes. Kids are getting continuity in the characters they know, but still building ships, architecture, dragons, fantasy vehicles, etc.

 

[Yperio_Bricks]

Exactly! Ninjago is curse and blessing at the same time. These ninjas can travel to space or under the sea. They can pilote mechs and planes, they can sail ships or ride motorbikes. They can fight knights, orcs, other ninjas or evil creatures. They can build cities, temples or castles. And of course Ninjas are cool! Every kid knows that.

[MAB]

1 hour ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Exactly! Ninjago is curse and blessing at the same time. These ninjas can travel to space or under the sea. They can pilote mechs and planes, they can sail ships or ride motorbikes. They can fight knights, orcs, other ninjas or evil creatures. They can build cities, temples or castles. And of course Ninjas are cool! Every kid knows that.

And what is probably worse for this thread is that they can do anything and everything that any new theme could do without the need for advertising it to kids to convince them to buy into it. So if those little ninjas want to fight with or side with pirates, or go on an adventure with Roman or Egyptian architecture and characters, they just need to write the story arc and incorporate that type of set into the theme. It really is a catch-all type of theme.

Edited August 29, 2023 by MAB

[danth]

20 hours ago, MAB said:

People often blame licensed themes for taking away or replacing unlicensed ones, but there is not really any evidence that this is true.

I don't think this deserves much more than an eye roll. MAB, I don't even believe you anymore. I think you know this isn't true, and you're just lying. The evidence is overwhelming. We've been through it over and over. Lego even admits that they don't want their themes competing with each other. You can look through Brickset and see all the years where Space is gone and there just happens to be SW movies in theaters.

I have a post on this, I need to link to it in my signature because it comes up again and again.

8 hours ago, MAB said:

That is a coincidence. We have had plenty of Space and Castle themes since 2000 but presumably those were not selling that well enough to make them evergreen.

Speaking of "there is no evidence this is true": how well various Space and Castle themes sold. Nobody has this information. Except Lego and they're not divulging.

[Karalora]

18 minutes ago, danth said:

Lego even admits that they don't want their themes competing with each other.

I think there's also a decent chance that the licensees will refuse to do business unless TLG agrees to pull the in-house theme(s) that would compete directly with the branded merch. Big media conglomerates would like very much to be the last word in entertainment for their most profitable genres. Let kids build their own spaceships and the next thing you know, they won't be interested in Star Wars at all anymore! (This is manifestly not true, but it's an example of how megacorps think. It's not enough to be successful, or even hugely successful--they want monopolies.)

[danth]

1 minute ago, Karalora said:

I think there's also a decent chance that the licensees will refuse to do business unless TLG agrees to pull the in-house theme(s) that would compete directly with the branded merch.

Yes, I would call a 100% chance decent, myself. 😁

[MAB]

15 minutes ago, Karalora said:

I think there's also a decent chance that the licensees will refuse to do business unless TLG agrees to pull the in-house theme(s) that would compete directly with the branded merch. Big media conglomerates would like very much to be the last word in entertainment for their most profitable genres. Let kids build their own spaceships and the next thing you know, they won't be interested in Star Wars at all anymore! (This is manifestly not true, but it's an example of how megacorps think. It's not enough to be successful, or even hugely successful--they want monopolies.)

Yet Lucasfilm were apparently happy to do business all this time, including these years - 1999, 2001, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013 - despite LEGO doing in-house fantasy space as complete themes, along with other fantasy and realistic space sets in many other years even though all of that was competing with SW LEGO merchandise.

Similarly, Castle was on the shelves at the same time as Harry Potter and LOTR. Again the last proper theme sets were 2013 (with a couple of battle packs that went into 2014).

Is it coincidence that both Castle and Space disappear at about the same time after 2013? Does Castle disappear because of Star Wars too as there was no other license stopping it? Harry Potter didn't get the reboot until much later (2018). Or might it be that they had decided to go down the route of  2/3 year themes (Ninjago, Chima, Nexo) and were then hit with the huge success of Ninjago over 2011-2012 and realised that making Ninjago evergreen was going to continue those sales year on year. Look at some of the 2014/2015 Ninjago sets from the time of the reboot. There are a number of ships and vehicles that could easily pass as space.

To me, they overlap with "generic space theme" more than they overlap with Star Wars, and more than Star Wars overlaps with "generic space theme". Kids wanting swooshable fantasy play like they would get from Galaxy Squad, or Alien Conquest or Space Police could have the same play with these sets, just with different enemies and a core of by this time well-loved in-house characters. And at the same time, there are architectural sets (Asian style rather than European) and dragons, overlapping with the traditional play areas that Castle would have taken before. And kids can land their swooshable ship next to the Temple or Destiny's Bounty and play seamlessly with both as they are all from the same theme.

And then the movies hit, and the classic themes start to become more nostalgia based references for adults (like Benny's spaceship) rather than kids' playsets. Now the kids have Ninjago with its wide range of set styles and sizes, the adults including all those newly drawn into the hobby have the classic themes they remember as kids done as large expensive sets only and we are in the current post-LEGO Movies era.

[Black Falcon]

1 hour ago, Karalora said:

I think there's also a decent chance that the licensees will refuse to do business unless TLG agrees to pull the in-house theme(s) that would compete directly with the branded merch. Big media conglomerates would like very much to be the last word in entertainment for their most profitable genres. Let kids build their own spaceships and the next thing you know, they won't be interested in Star Wars at all anymore! (This is manifestly not true, but it's an example of how megacorps think. It's not enough to be successful, or even hugely successful--they want monopolies.)

In that case they couldn´t have done the galaxy explorer though. Also Nasa sets would also compete with Star Wars, same for Avatar. I mean it has no space ship sets, but still one sci fi franchise against another and Disney would likely see that one more as competing one than Nasa, City or Classic Space Sets

[Classic_Spaceman]

22 minutes ago, MAB said:

Yet Lucasfilm were apparently happy to do business all this time, including these years - 1999, 2001, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013 - despite LEGO doing in-house fantasy space as complete themes, along with other fantasy and realistic space sets in many other years even though all of that was competing with SW LEGO merchandise.

Inb4 Disney prohibiting Space sets. 😐

22 minutes ago, MAB said:

Look at some of the 2014/2015 Ninjago sets from the time of the reboot. There are a number of ships and vehicles that could easily pass as space.

<Snip>

From 2019-present: 

Not to mention literally all of Prime Empire! 
 

I actually bought two of the White Dragon Horse Jet specifically to convert into Space Police ships (I still need to mod them, but the set is very clearly a spaceship!). 
 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Classic_Spaceman

[MAB]

13 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

From 2019-present: 
 

Yes, there are many recent space but not Space sets done in Ninjago. I was just concentrating on those that appeared soon after the last of what are usually considered Space theme sets disappeared.

[Classic_Spaceman]

7 minutes ago, MAB said:

Yes, there are many recent space but not Space sets done in Ninjago. I was just concentrating on those that appeared soon after the last of what are usually considered Space theme sets disappeared.

I know - I was pointing out that the trend of space-but-not-Space sets continued well into the Disney era of Star Wars, to counter the argument that Disney is somehow keeping LEGO from being able to make space sets. 
 

[icm]

To avoid beating a dead horse too much, I've copied my post from 7/28/23 (in another thread) into the spoiler tag below. TLDR, between zany Marvel swooshies and zany Ninjago/Monkie Kid/Dreamzzz swooshies there's not much room for zany Space swooshies to stand out on shelves, within the product niche of "Space that is clearly not Star Wars or NASA".

Spoiler

I think I've said it before at least once - I blame the dearth of in-house Space themes (apart from one-offs like the Galaxy Explorer and the Blacktron Cruiser, and TLM/TLM2 sets that are associated with a movie license) more on Super Heroes than on Star Wars. As I see it, there's room on shelves for three different kinds of spaceships at a time, without much risk that either kind of spaceship will cannibalize sales of the other kinds, because they're different enough to target different audiences. These three kinds are Star Wars, NASA/City, and what I'll just call "something else." That "something else" is more brightly colored, more bold and imaginative and zany than Star Wars - something else that is clearly not Star Wars.

But here's the thing - ever since Guardians of the Galaxy first came out in 2014, the Marvel spaceships have filled that niche of being brightly colored, bold and imaginative and zany. The best examples of that are the Milano and Starblaster from 2014, the Milano and Abilisk from 2017, the red ring-shaped spaceship from 2017, the big Benatar from 2021, and then the Bowie, the baby Rocket ship, and (except for the price) the Hoopty from 2023. Add to those the various Wakandan flying machines that look more like alien spaceships than airplanes (Talon, Dragonfly, Sunbird), the Benatar/Pod combo from 2018, the Quantum Realm from Ant-Man and the Wasp, the Quinjets with colored windscreens and space-alien soldiers for conflict-in-a-box, the various out-of-this-world Spider-vehicles, the Domo from Eternals (bizarre sales flop that it was), and that leaves little room for the distinctive niche of a traditional Space line: a small wave of brightly colored, bold and imaginative and zany spaceships that have closely related shapes and design features.

So, yeah - I do blame the Mouse for the moribund state of that very classic theme called Space. It's just that the Mouse that I blame is Marvel Mouse, not Lucas Mouse.

Edit, don't forget this - a very Spacey insectoid mobile base from 2021! Once again, a Space set in all but name (and a stubborn lack of helmets and airtanks).

Edited August 29, 2023 by icm

[danth]

2 hours ago, MAB said:

Yet Lucasfilm were apparently happy to do business all this time, including these years - 1999, 2001, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013 - despite LEGO doing in-house fantasy space as complete themes, along with other fantasy and realistic space sets in many other years even though all of that was competing with SW LEGO merchandise.

Congratulations, you just listed all the years SW movies were not in theaters (except 1999 which was when Space consisted only of leftover Insectoid polybags) thus proving my point. Quoting my past self here:

On 9/18/2020 at 6:55 PM, danth said:

To anyone who doubts Star Wars gets in the way of non-licensed Space sets, here are the facts, mostly copied from a past post of mine:

The first year ever, after 20+ steady years, that there were no Lego Space sets was 2000. This was immediately after the first ever Star Wars sets in 1999. Then, in 2001 when Space sets returned, they were on Mars. A real world in our very own solar system. Not deep space, not out in the galaxy. Not anything that could be confused with Star Wars. Then nothing for six years while Star Wars movies were in theaters.

Finally, in 2007 we got Lego Space sets again. On Mars...again. And just in time not to compete with the Revenge of the Sith sets.

Then we get pretty steady Lego Space on the shelves until 2014. Guess what happens the year after? The Force Awakens. 

All evidence points to some non-competition strategy to keep in-house Space sets off the shelves when there are Star Wars movies being made. 

You can even see the same thing with Ninjago. They got rid of it scaled Ninjago back to a handful of sets to make way for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. There's an argument that they really scaled back Ninjago to bring in Chima, but that's hogwash. Ninjago was 4 boy ninjas and their master with who fight mutant bad guys. It IS TMNT with the turtle gimmick removed. It was Lego's audition for TMNT. Once they got TMNT, they didn't need Ninjago. Except TMNT fizzled out after a couple years (or they lost the license to Mega or whatever), so they brought Ninjago back to a full theme.

Chima may have been the "replacement" for Ninjago, but Ninjago was the stand in for TMNT the whole time.

Also, some of you posting obvious jet fighters and helicopters as proof that Lego can do space sets? That's really weird guys. Seriously? You could just not make silly arguments.

Edited August 29, 2023 by danth

[Classic_Spaceman]

54 minutes ago, danth said:

You can even see the same thing with Ninjago. They got rid of it to make way for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. There's an argument that they really got rid of Ninjago to bring in Chima, but that's hogwash. Ninjago was 4 boy ninjas and their master with who fight mutant bad guys. It IS TMNT with the turtle gimmick removed. It was Lego's audition for TMNT. Once they got TMNT, they didn't need Ninjago. Except TMNT fizzled out after a couple years (or they lost the license to Mega or whatever), so they brought Ninjago back.

Chima may have been the "replacement" for Ninjago, but Ninjago was the stand in for TMNT the whole time.

Ninjago’s originally-planned run was 2011-2013, and then was immediately continued from 2014-present; at no point did LEGO “get rid of” Ninjago, since it takes 1-2 years to design sets and the theme never had any off-years. While the original plan may have been to replace it with TNMT, LEGO obviously decided to keep Ninjago around by the time that the Turtles hit shelves. 

54 minutes ago, danth said:

There's an argument that they really got rid of Ninjago to bring in Chima, but that's hogwash. Ninjago was 4 boy ninjas and their master with who fight mutant bad guys. It IS TMNT with the turtle gimmick removed. It was Lego's audition for TMNT. 

LEGO had done named, colour-coded, heroes in a story-based theme before (KKII), though. Also, while very early Ninjago had some TNMT vibes, it very quickly became more like Power Rangers (by the second season, we got vehicles and a new green team member who becomes the leader!) 

54 minutes ago, danth said:

Congratulations, you just listed all the years SW movies were not in theaters (except 1999 which was when Space consisted only of leftover Insectoid polybags) thus proving my point. 

You can say the same thing about Castle, though, with the exception of a few Legends sets in 2002 and the second year of KKII in 2005 - And we got nothing after TFA! Disney is keeping us from getting Castle sets!! 
/s 

54 minutes ago, danth said:

Also, some of you posting obvious jet fighters and helicopters as proof that Lego can do space sets? That's really weird guys. Seriously? You could just not make silly arguments.

Go back and look at old space sets - there are plenty of jet fighters, and even a helicopter! 
 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Classic_Spaceman

[danth]

46 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

Ninjago’s originally-planned run was 2011-2013, and then was immediately continued from 2014-present; at no point did LEGO “get rid of” Ninjago, since it takes 1-2 years to design sets and the theme never had any off-years.

Oops sorry, I was talking about when Ninjago was scaled back to 10 sets a year while TMNT sets were being made. So yes, scaled back, not totally gotten rid of. Thanks for the correction.

46 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

Go back and look at old space sets - there are plenty of jet fighters, and even a helicopter! 

Ok but how many of the helicopters you posted had laser beams for rotors and a pilot with air tanks?

You guys are making the argument that any set with any similarity whatsoever to something that existed in one Space set means "this could have been a space set." I.e. Insectoids existed so any set with a bug in it "could have been Space set"? No.

You guys are basically gaslighting at this point. "This Halloween set had a spider. Could have been a Space set!"

Edited August 29, 2023 by danth

[Classic_Spaceman]

8 minutes ago, danth said:

You guys are making the argument that any set with any similarity whatsoever to something that existed in one Space set means "this could have been a space set." I.e. Insectoids existed so any set with a bug in it "could have been Space set"? No.

You guys are basically gaslighting at this point. "This Halloween set had a spider. Could have been a Space set!"

Are should seriously not seeing how sci-fi these sets are? Just imagine them with spaceman pilots and a starfield backdrop! 

9 minutes ago, danth said:

Ok but how many of the helicopters you posted had laser beams for rotors and a pilot with air tanks?

What, then, constitutes a space set/model for you? I am asking, because Mars Mission Minifigs had printed (not moulded) airtanks, some SPIII Minifigs did not have airtanks, none of the Galaxy Squad ones did, and Alien Conquest is considered by most (by you, also?) to be a Space theme despite it taking place entirely on Earth! 
 

[danth]

1 minute ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

What, then, constitutes a space set/model for you? I am asking, because Mars Mission Minifigs had printed (not moulded) airtanks, some SPIII Minifigs did not have airtanks, none of the Galaxy Squad ones did, and Alien Conquest is considered by most (by you, also?) to be a Space theme despite it taking place entirely on Earth! 

Something that has anything remotely to do with space? Like, having spaceships? This is not that hard.

The Monkie Kid rocket ship and moon base sets are the only two pictured that have anything to do with space.

And Alien Conquest has aliens and UFOs at least. Though not much other than that connects it to Space. That one could have easily been a City theme!

[Classic_Spaceman]

Just now, danth said:

Something that has anything remotely to do with space? Like, having spaceships? This is not that hard.

OK, what do you consider to be a spaceship? I am honestly asking, because classic Space themes had such a wide variety of ship designs and colour-schemes. 

2 minutes ago, danth said:

And Alien Conquest has aliens and UFOs at least. Though not much other than that connects it to Space. That one could have easily been a City theme!

So you do not consider Alien Conquest to be a Space theme? Also, how do you consider the 2024 City space sets, given that they are going to feature things like mechs and aliens? 
 

[danth]

4 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

OK, what do you consider to be a spaceship? I am honestly asking, because classic Space themes had such a wide variety of ship designs and colour-schemes. 

If it's released in a non-Space, Earth based theme, and it looks like a Jet and or Helicopter, and Jet and or Helicopter (or some similar word) is literally in the name, I'm not going to consider it a space ship.

It only gets dicey when something looks more like a real life space shuttle or landing craft. I.e. the Overwatch Gibratler looks suspiciously like a space shuttle to me. Though if it blasts off without rockets, maybe it really is a spaceship, or specifically a rocket ship.

But a Ninjago jet is clearly not a spaceship.

9 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

So you do not consider Alien Conquest to be a Space theme? Also, how do you consider the 2024 City space sets, given that they are going to feature things like mechs and aliens? 

Brickset calls Alien Conquest sets Space. I don't consider them Space-y enough to collect them. Unlike Mars Mission and Galaxy Squad.

I don't know what to think about 2024 City space. We haven't seen them yet.

[jonwil]

The Overwatch Gibraltar is clearly defined in-game as being a launch facility.

 

[icm]

Serious question here: ignoring the lack of minifigs in spacesuits with space helmets, what about the design of the main model and side builds (big spider base, robot spider, speederbike) of this:

is any less of "anything remotely to do with space" than the design of the main model and side builds (big spider base, speederbike) of this:

or this (big spider base, speederbikes)?