Ideas for new Lego themes! (Non-licensed)

[Classic_Spaceman]

2 hours ago, danth said:

If it's released in a non-Space, Earth based theme, and it looks like a Jet and or Helicopter, and Jet and or Helicopter (or some similar word) is literally in the name, I'm not going to consider it a space ship.

So what would you make of a direct rerelease of the Mega Core Magnetizer, but as a Monkie Kid mobile base located on Earth (with MK Minifigs instead of M;Tron astronauts)? Would this “Monkey Core Magnetizer” be a Space set or not? Similarly, if 80020 were called the “Zeta Pulse Interceptor” and included “Green-Tron” astronaut Minifigs, would it be a Space set? 
 

29 minutes ago, icm said:

Serious question here: ignoring the lack of minifigs in spacesuits with space helmets, what about the design of the main model and side builds (big spider base, robot spider, speederbike) of this:

is any less of "anything remotely to do with space" than the design of the main model and side builds (big spider base, speederbike) of this:

or this (big spider base, speederbikes)?

My point exactly! 
 

[danth]

34 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

So what would you make of a direct rerelease of the Mega Core Magnetizer, but as a Monkie Kid mobile base located on Earth (with MK Minifigs instead of M;Tron astronauts)? Would this “Monkey Core Magnetizer” be a Space set or not?

They did that in Nexo Knights.

Of course I don't consider it a Space set. Why would I? It's not Space. It's Nexo Knights.

Is the Futuron Monorail really a city set because City also had a Monorail? Are all Disney Princess castle sets really Harry Potter because both have castles?

What kind of questions are these?

😕

[Classic_Spaceman]

1 hour ago, danth said:

They did that in Nexo Knights.

<snip> 

Of course I don't consider it a Space set. Why would I? It's not Space. It's Nexo Knights. 

So a direct part-for-part remake of an old Space set released as part of a different theme would not be a Space set? What about a set from a non-space theme being released in a Space theme? 

1 hour ago, danth said:

Is the Futuron Monorail really a city set because City also had a Monorail?

Does it come down to box art, then? If the box does not have a starfield or alien planet background, then it is not a space set? What of the 2010 SPIII line, which shows the sets inside a futuristic domed city; it is not on Earth (which is visible in the background), but City space sets have backdrops in Earth’s orbit and they do not count as Space. 
 

[danth]

I tire of these question. Let's just hope we get some cool sets in 2024. 😁

[MAB]

10 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

OK, what do you consider to be a spaceship? I am honestly asking, because classic Space themes had such a wide variety of ship designs and colour-schemes. 

So you do not consider Alien Conquest to be a Space theme? Also, how do you consider the 2024 City space sets, given that they are going to feature things like mechs and aliens? 
 

Remember to some people Space is not Space unless it is blue and grey with coloured minifigures with matching airtanks and helmets. Children play with similar style builds in similar ways, it doesn't matter what the badge on the box says or which section of the website it is from. In many cases, the audience for a swooshable set will be the same, whether the storyline behind the theme is based on a fictional place on earth or a fictional place elsewhere.

It really doesn't matter what badge is on the box, it is whether they compete for the same audience and shelf space. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by MAB

[Classic_Spaceman]

14 hours ago, MAB said:

In many cases, the audience for a swooshable set will be the same, whether the storyline behind the theme is based on a fictional place on earth or a fictional place elsewhere.

It really doesn't matter what badge is on the box, it is whether they compete for the same audience and shelf space. 

This is honestly why I think that we have not gotten Space since 2013 - Sci-fi elements have seeped into all other in-house themes, so a true Space theme would have difficulty setting itself apart from the other colourful sci-fi swooshables and mechs that are on shelves. 
 

[Karalora]

1 hour ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

This is honestly why I think that we have not gotten Space since 2013 - Sci-fi elements have seeped into all other in-house themes, so a true Space theme would have difficulty setting itself apart from the other colourful sci-fi swooshables and mechs that are on shelves. 
 

This might be the most sensible take of all. It's not that any one licensed (or unlicensed) theme pushed Classic Space off the shelves...it's that when these high-tech elements are so common across multiple themes, what's left for vanilla Space to offer? And you could probably make a similar argument re: Castle.

[danth]

12 minutes ago, Karalora said:

This might be the most sensible take of all. It's not that any one licensed (or unlicensed) theme pushed Classic Space off the shelves...it's that when these high-tech elements are so common across multiple themes, what's left for vanilla Space to offer? And you could probably make a similar argument re: Castle.

I'm going to go the other way.

Since we have mechs in every theme, like SW where there aren't even mechs in the movies, and now in City(?) Space, and since we have space ships in Monkie Kid and City and Friends (and supposedly EVERY theme according to you all, since Ninjago helicopters are apparently space ships), then...

Why the heck can't we just have a real, unified Space theme? Obviously space ships and mechs are super popular. They could easily constitute a theme. 

I guess we are getting a "Space" theme finally in 2024 with aliens and mechs, but it's pretty weird that it's in City.

Edited August 31, 2023 by danth

[Classic_Spaceman]

1 minute ago, Karalora said:

And you could probably make a similar argument re: Castle.

Really? What else is filling that niche? Harry Potter has a castle, but it is not a defensive structure, and no other theme has European knights. 

My personal theory is that Game of Thrones changed the public perception of Medieval fantasy from LOTR, Robin Hood, jousts, etc (that inspired LEGO Castle), to very family-unfriendly themes! GoT was becoming a global phenomenon around 2013-2014, which is when LEGO decided to end the Castle line for the first time in decades (a few off-years notwithstanding); when we got castle-style sets back in 2016, it was via Nexo Knights (which leaned so heavily into sci-fi that it could not be confused with GoT!). 
 

4 minutes ago, danth said:

I'm going to go the other way.

Since we have mechs in every theme, like SW where there aren't even mechs in the movies, and now in City(?) Space, and since we have space ships in Monkie Kid and City and Friends (and supposedly EVERY theme according to you all, since Ninjago helicopters are apparently space ships), then...

Why the heck can't we just have a real, unified Space theme?

We can, but I am not sure what it could bring to the table that other themes cannot (in the eyes of children). Ninjago and Monkie Kid give us colourful jets/ships, sleek ground vehicles, and cool mechs, while City space gives us the exploratory and scientific research elements; aside from aliens and nostalgia, what else is there? Additionally, both Ninjago and MK have weird non-Human species, so that sort of covers aliens as well. 
 

[icm]

3 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

This is honestly why I think that we have not gotten Space since 2013 - Sci-fi elements have seeped into all other in-house themes, so a true Space theme would have difficulty setting itself apart from the other colourful sci-fi swooshables and mechs that are on shelves. 
 

That's what I've tried to say several times. Back in the day, Space was the only theme for sci-fi swooshies, but that started to change in 1995 with Aquazone. Sci-fi swooshies are everywhere now, so it's hard for Space to find a distinct niche in the product line.

[Classic_Spaceman]

2 minutes ago, icm said:

That's what I've tried to say several times. Back in the day, Space was the only theme for sci-fi swooshies, but that started to change in 1995 with Aquazone. Sci-fi swooshies are everywhere now, so it's hard for Space to find a distinct niche in the product line.

And Aquazone began development as the Space subtheme Sea-Tron. Also worth noting is that Rock Raiders takes place in space, but is not technically a Space theme. 
 

[MAB]

8 hours ago, Karalora said:

This might be the most sensible take of all. It's not that any one licensed (or unlicensed) theme pushed Classic Space off the shelves...it's that when these high-tech elements are so common across multiple themes, what's left for vanilla Space to offer? And you could probably make a similar argument re: Castle.

There have been some castle like builds in unlicensed sets, such as I Monster Fighters. But it does really depend how you define Castle. Some of the temple type builds from Ninjago are great, but are they really Castle? I don't feel there is as much "hidden" Castle compared to Space in the kids' themes of Ninjago, Monkie Kid, City, etc but then Castle has got some good (large and adult aimed) sets recently in ICONS and IDEAS. 

I don't find HP much use for Castle either, both in design and parts, mainly due to too much of the wrong colours for me and also the figures are repeated too often and worth very little to sell on. Star wars, on the other hand and depending on the set, can have decent parts selection for Castle MOCs and the figures tend to be more valuable to sell on and so make the parts cheaper compared to HP.

[Karalora]

13 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

Really? What else is filling that niche? Harry Potter has a castle, but it is not a defensive structure, and no other theme has European knights.

Why assume that the primary appeal of Castle for kids is European-style knights defending a fortress? I think kids go more for the aesthetic and fantasy elements--the crenellations and banners on the castle structure, swords and bows, wizards and spells, DRAGONS, princesses. Between Harry Potter, Ninjago, and Disney, these are all pretty well covered.

Quote

My personal theory is that Game of Thrones changed the public perception of Medieval fantasy from LOTR, Robin Hood, jousts, etc (that inspired LEGO Castle), to very family-unfriendly themes! GoT was becoming a global phenomenon around 2013-2014, which is when LEGO decided to end the Castle line for the first time in decades (a few off-years notwithstanding); when we got castle-style sets back in 2016, it was via Nexo Knights (which leaned so heavily into sci-fi that it could not be confused with GoT!).

That's another strong possibility. LEGO was obviously never going to make a licensed GOT set, and they probably wanted to avoid anything that was too easy to repurpose in that direction, for the sake of their reputation. However, GOT has now ended in a big wet thud, so there might be an opportunity to shift the genre back.

[icm]

For me, Castle was always about European-style knights defending a fortress, but obviously YMMV.

[danth]

14 hours ago, icm said:

Sci-fi swooshies

That isn't very spaceship specific. 😁

Sci-fi swooshies eh? I guess that's a fair way to categorize a huge number of designs. Just so long as we don't pretend that's all that matters. Which people in this thread are definitely doing.

14 hours ago, icm said:

Sci-fi swooshies are everywhere now, so it's hard for Space to find a distinct niche in the product line. 

Let's continue with that line of thinking. 

Aren't Monkey Kid and Ninjago both just "Martial Arts Action" lines? Why do they both need to exist? They all have the same "sci fi swooshies" too. You can even lump in Dreamzzz. They're all fantasy action themes with swords and swooshies. Chima and Nexo Knights too.

Why even have themes? Let's just have one theme then. If it's all the same, why do we need all these different themes?

15 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

We can, but I am not sure what it could bring to the table that other themes cannot (in the eyes of children). Ninjago and Monkie Kid give us colourful jets/ships, sleek ground vehicles, and cool mechs, while City space gives us the exploratory and scientific research elements; aside from aliens and nostalgia, what else is there? Additionally, both Ninjago and MK have weird non-Human species, so that sort of covers aliens as well. 

But that works the other way too. You can do a Space theme with ninjas and science and all of that. So what does Ninjago give us that Space couldn't?

Strangely, space is the one place that Ninjago specifically hasn't gone. They had an underwater subset, a cyberpunk season, heck even island windsurfers, but never went to space.

Maybe Monkie Kid was allowed to go to space since it's mainly a China market theme.

1 hour ago, Karalora said:

Why assume that the primary appeal of Castle for kids is European-style knights defending a fortress? I think kids go more for the aesthetic and fantasy elements--the crenellations and banners on the castle structure, swords and bows, wizards and spells, DRAGONS, princesses.

I really don't like this thing where we use the supposed naivete of kids to talk us out of expecting things we like as AFOLs.

Castles and Pagodas are similar ideas but one absolutely does not satisfy the desire for the other. And I reject the idea that Kids don't or won't care about differences like that. When I was a kid I rejected Space Police 2 because of the color change. I completely resented it as a theme. And I threw out all my Tyco Super Blocks because they weren't Lego. Kids care about little differences, maybe more than adults.

I think this is a big reason Nexo Knights failed. People who want a castle want a castle, they don't want a hot pink glowing castle tank. People who want space ships want space ships, they don't want a flying crossbow piloted by a knight. Sometimes Lego sets are just too weird and alienate everybody.

Including kids. As a kid I hated that kind of thing. I probably liked Nexo Nights more as an adult than I would have as a kid, because I can appreciate the camp now.

Edited August 31, 2023 by danth

[Karalora]

8 minutes ago, danth said:

I really don't like this thing where we use the supposed naivete of kids to talk us out of expecting things we like as AFOLs.

I'm not doing that? I'm just saying how I think TLG approaches the issue. For better or worse, they seem to mostly market large, complicated, standalone sets to AFOLs, and multi-set minifigure-based themes to kids. If we're wondering why licensed fantasy (and fantasy-adjacent) themes seem to have chased classic Castle off the shelves, it's probably because those licensed themes appeal more to kids in the areas Castle excelled in, than Castle itself. I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't criticize TLG's marketing patterns when they starve us of the kinds of sets we crave.

"Historical-ish knights defending fortresses" isn't the shape of the fantasy medieval aesthetic genre right now. Maybe it will be again someday.

On another note, is anyone weirded out by the fact that this line of discussion wound up in this thread instead of the "are classic themes dead" thread? Should we move it over there instead?

[danth]

3 minutes ago, Karalora said:

I'm not doing that? I'm just saying how I think TLG approaches the issue.

Right, but I think there is an implication, in even just explaining the approach, that Lego, in its mystical wisdom, is trying to appeal to kids, and that kids want different things than AFOLS, and that Lego understands all these differences, and that AFOLs don't. And I completely reject that.

Even if that's not what you meant, others always use kids as an excuse to magically wave away any and all AFOL desires and criticisms.

I think that 1, AFOLs are big kids and we want the same things as most kids, and 2, many licensed themes are bought mostly by adults. To my dying breath I will assert that it's mostly adults that buy SW, Marvel, and Harry Potter sets.

[Black Falcon]

1 minute ago, danth said:

Right, but I think there is an implication, in even just explaining the approach, that Lego, in its mystical wisdom, is trying to appeal to kids, and that kids want different things than AFOLS, and that Lego understands all these differences, and that AFOLs don't. And I completely reject that.

Even if that's not what you meant, others always use kids as an excuse to magically wave away any and all AFOL desires and criticisms.

I think that 1, AFOLs are big kids and we want the same things as most kids, and 2, many licensed themes are bought mostly by adults. To my dying breath I will assert that it's mostly adults that buy SW, Marvel, and Harry Potter sets.

I wouldn´t say mostly. But there are many for sure. (Unless you count Adults buying for their kids, then I would even agree to mostly lol). 

[danth]

3 minutes ago, Black Falcon said:

I wouldn´t say mostly. But there are many for sure. (Unless you count Adults buying for their kids, then I would even agree to mostly lol). 

Right.

Dad: What do you want?

Kid: Minecraft, Fortnite, Roblox...

Dad: Here's some SW Lego! I...I mean you love SW right?

Kid: Uh...sure dad.

[Black Falcon]

Not all Kids only love Ninjago, there is still a big fan base of Kids that like especially Harry Potter. No idea about Marvel really, they and DC seem less attractive to Kids for me, but I can be wrong. Star Wars. Well yeah, there might be some influence from the Parents (but really parents have influence in like everything towards their kids right? ;)

[icm]

 

 

44 minutes ago, danth said:

That isn't very spaceship specific. 😁

You've got me there!

44 minutes ago, danth said:

Sci-fi swooshies eh? I guess that's a fair way to categorize a huge number of designs. Just so long as we don't pretend that's all that matters. Which people in this thread are definitely doing.

I concede that as an adult I'm much more open-minded about considering any old sci-fi swooshy Space-like than I was as a kid.

44 minutes ago, danth said:

Aren't Monkey Kid and Ninjago both just "Martial Arts Action" lines? Why do they both need to exist? They all have the same "sci fi swooshies" too. You can even lump in Dreamzzz. They're all fantasy action themes with swords and swooshies. Chima and Nexo Knights too.

Yeah, I do find most of the fantasy action themes with swords and swooshies very much the same. They're not really my cup of tea.

44 minutes ago, danth said:

But that works the other way too. You can do a Space theme with ninjas and science and all of that. So what does Ninjago give us that Space couldn't?

Strangely, space is the one place that Ninjago specifically hasn't gone. They had an underwater subset, a cyberpunk season, heck even island windsurfers, but never went to space.

Maybe Monkie Kid was allowed to go to space since it's mainly a China market theme.

Yep, fingers crossed Ninjago gets to go to Space sometime. In general, though, I'd say the thing that Ninjago gives us that Space can't is more flexibility. Space themes are pretty well constrained to take place in Space (except if you count James Cameron's Avatar as a licensed Space theme, which it totally could be if they made sets of the shuttle or the starship, or if you count Rock Raiders as a Space theme), whereas Ninjago can take place any old where. Except Space, apparently. 

44 minutes ago, danth said:

I really don't like this thing where we use the supposed naivete of kids to talk us out of expecting things we like as AFOLs.

Castles and Pagodas are similar ideas but one absolutely does not satisfy the desire for the other. And I reject the idea that Kids don't or won't care about differences like that. When I was a kid I rejected Space Police 2 because of the color change. I completely resented it as a theme. And I threw out all my Tyco Super Blocks because they weren't Lego. Kids care about little differences, maybe more than adults.

I think this is a big reason Nexo Knights failed. People who want a castle want a castle, they don't want a hot pink glowing castle tank. People who want space ships want space ships, they don't want a flying crossbow piloted by a knight. Sometimes Lego sets are just too weird and alienate everybody.

 Including kids. As a kid I hated that kind of thing.

Edited August 31, 2023 by icm
Add after last quote: I agree 100%!

[Karalora]

34 minutes ago, danth said:

Right, but I think there is an implication, in even just explaining the approach, that Lego, in its mystical wisdom, is trying to appeal to kids, and that kids want different things than AFOLS, and that Lego understands all these differences, and that AFOLs don't. And I completely reject that.

Even if that's not what you meant, others always use kids as an excuse to magically wave away any and all AFOL desires and criticisms.

I think that 1, AFOLs are big kids and we want the same things as most kids, and 2, many licensed themes are bought mostly by adults. To my dying breath I will assert that it's mostly adults that buy SW, Marvel, and Harry Potter sets.

Oh, TLG could very well be wrong about what kids like, and they often are. I think we see that every time an obviously kid-focused theme fails to take off (although I applaud the experimentation--we need more experimentation and risk-taking from our entertainment, and less falling back on what is proven. Otherwise we will completely stagnate).

I agree that we AFOLs are big kids, but I don't know how well that translates into being into the same things as current kids. I think it mostly means that we're still into the same things we liked when we were kids (i.e. geekdom in a nutshell), and that might keep us in touch with the younger generations, or it might not. It depends on the details.

You're probably right that those three themes in particular are more popular with adults than kids, at least as LEGO sets. But I don't know if you can extrapolate from that, that hypothetical unlicensed versions would do better with kids than the licensed ones.

[jonwil]

In terms of Ninjago in space, it's a bit hard to do awesome ninja moves in a space suit (and such moves are core to Ninjago)

 

[Classic_Spaceman]

11 hours ago, Karalora said:

That's another strong possibility. LEGO was obviously never going to make a licensed GOT set, and they probably wanted to avoid anything that was too easy to repurpose in that direction, for the sake of their reputation. However, GOT has now ended in a big wet thud, so there might be an opportunity to shift the genre back.

The timeline also works: GoT’s final season flopped in April of 2019, then almost a year later (Feb ‘20), the Ideas blacksmith was announced; a year after that, it finally released (Feb ‘21), and the Creator 3-in-1 followed in August of the same year. The Lion Knights’ Castle, Viking ship, and Forestmen’s Hideout GWP all followed in 2022. Now, we are getting the Viking village in October of this year, and the Medieval village probably sometime next year. 
Once it became clear that GoT would be remembered more for its failed ending than for its actual content, LEGO began producing proper Castle sets again. 
 

[Classic_Spaceman]

10 hours ago, danth said:

Let's continue with that line of thinking. 

Aren't Monkey Kid and Ninjago both just "Martial Arts Action" lines? Why do they both need to exist? They all have the same "sci fi swooshies" too. You can even lump in Dreamzzz. They're all fantasy action themes with swords and swooshies. Chima and Nexo Knights too.

Ninjago and Monkie Kid are similar, but they differ in a very significant way - Monkie Kid was developed to tap into the Chinese market, and it is based on Journey to the West; ninjas are Japanese, and Ninjago has its own  lore independent of any existing story. Additionally, while MK is a LEGO/Amazon exclusive, Ninjago can be found in practically any store. 
Dreamzzz is quite different and unique, with far more whacky and fantastical elements than any other theme; it is basically Time Cruisers X Elves X Hidden Side X drugs! Nexo Knights is what happens when you play with your Space and Castle sets together, and Chima had animal-vehicles (rather than the more traditional ones found in other themes). 

10 hours ago, danth said:

 

Strangely, space is the one place that Ninjago specifically hasn't gone. They had an underwater subset, a cyberpunk season, heck even island windsurfers, but never went to space.

Blame Tommy Andreasen. The Hagemans wanted to do a space season (hence the Arcturus rocket episodes in Rebooted), but Andreasen was adamant that the Ninja stay planetside. 

10 hours ago, danth said:

I think this is a big reason Nexo Knights failed. 

I do not think that Nexo Knights failed; sales might have fallen off later, hence the truncated third year, by that is not uncommon for Big Bang themes (Hidden Side, Chima, Ninjago itself when they tried to end it).