Ideas for new Lego themes! (Non-licensed)

[danth]

5 hours ago, jonwil said:

In terms of Ninjago in space, it's a bit hard to do awesome ninja moves in a space suit

How? Why?

How is going underwater not worse in that regard?

3 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

Dreamzzz is quite different and unique, with far more whacky and fantastical elements than any other theme; it is basically Time Cruisers X Elves X Hidden Side X drugs! Nexo Knights is what happens when you play with your Space and Castle sets together, and Chima had animal-vehicles (rather than the more traditional ones found in other themes). 

Sounds the same to me. Throw swords and "sci fi swooshies" and a bunch of other junk into a blender, see what comes out. A space bus is just the same gimmick as a castle tank. A cactus cat, a monkey mech, a gator copter -- all the same tired mash up gimmick. 

3 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

Blame Tommy Andreasen. The Hagemans wanted to do a space season (hence the Arcturus rocket episodes in Rebooted), but Andreasen was adamant that the Ninja stay planetside. 

If they had to give a reason, that means it's PR. Obviously the creative team wanted to do space, and the people in charge of not pissing off Disney said no. Of course they can't just tell us that.

3 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

I do not think that Nexo Knights failed; sales might have fallen off later, hence the truncated third year, by that is not uncommon for Big Bang themes (Hidden Side, Chima, Ninjago itself when they tried to end it). 

Fair enough. I guess I meant "failed to excite Space and Castle fans and other AFOLs who want cool stuff that isn't weird".

[Classic_Spaceman]

8 hours ago, danth said:

Sounds the same to me. Throw swords and "sci fi swooshies" and a bunch of other junk into a blender, see what comes out. A space bus is just the same gimmick as a castle tank. A cactus cat, a monkey mech, a gator copter -- all the same tired mash up gimmick. 

I would not consider the Dreamzzz set designs/concepts "tired"! 

8 hours ago, danth said:

If they had to give a reason, that means it's PR. Obviously the creative team wanted to do space, and the people in charge of not pissing off Disney said no. Of course they can't just tell us that.

He was asked about it on Twitter (which I cannot see, because Twitter suX now!); also, Monkie Kid went to space. 
 

[danth]

17 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

He was asked about it on Twitter (which I cannot see, because Twitter suX now!); also, Monkie Kid went to space. 

Didn't you just tell me that Monkie Kid is different because it's for a Chinese market? Licensing agreements are labyrinthine morasses, and Lego has teams of lawyers figuring out what they can and can't do. A theme you can't get in US Walmarts and Targets is going to be affected differently.

[Classic_Spaceman]

1 minute ago, danth said:

Didn't you just tell me that Monkie Kid is different because it's for a Chinese market? Licensing agreements are labyrinthine morasses, and Lego has teams of lawyers figuring out what they can and can't do. A theme you can't get in US Walmarts and Targets is going to be affected differently.

I said that Monkie Kid is different from Ninjago in its content/story and target market, not that it is subject to different rules per some license with Disney. 
 

[danth]

Just now, Classic_Spaceman said:

I said that Monkie Kid is different from Ninjago in its content/story and target market, not that it is subject to different rules per some license with Disney. 

But one follows the other.

[Classic_Spaceman]

4 minutes ago, danth said:

But one follows the other.

I doubt that. Additionally, if all LEGO needed to do to make a true Space them were to have it be a LEGO/Amazon exclusive, I suspect that they would have exploited that loophole already! Also, the Galaxy Explorer was available in regular stores (Walmart, etc), so somehow that is exempt as well? 
 

[danth]

13 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

I doubt that. Additionally, if all LEGO needed to do to make a true Space them were to have it be a LEGO/Amazon exclusive, I suspect that they would have exploited that loophole already! Also, the Galaxy Explorer was available in regular stores (Walmart, etc), so somehow that is exempt as well? 

Galaxy Explorer is an 18+ set. There's your loophole.

Obviously I'm speculating. I'm guessing based on clues. I could be totally wrong.

But I'm pretty sure there's a reason why Ninjago hasn't gone to space, Creator hasn't had a real Sci-Fi space set, and Space is now in City. And it's not something Lego is ever going to admit to.

Really looks like Lego toeing the legal line of license agreements.

[Classic_Spaceman]

1 hour ago, danth said:

Galaxy Explorer is an 18+ set. There's your loophole.

Obviously I'm speculating. I'm guessing based on clues. I could be totally wrong.

But I'm pretty sure there's a reason why Ninjago hasn't gone to space, Creator hasn't had a real Sci-Fi space set, and Space is now in City. And it's not something Lego is ever going to admit to.

Really looks like Lego toeing the legal line of license agreements.

The Mouse does not mess around; I doubt that they would be able to be circumvented by just labelling a set 18+ (or making the set exclusive, or calling a space fighter a "jet", or showing a spaceship launching vertically instead of cruising horizontally, or having a city in the background instead of a starfield, or whatever)! 
 

[danth]

20 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

The Mouse does not mess around; I doubt that they would be able to be circumvented by just labelling a set 18+ (or making the set exclusive, or calling a space fighter a "jet", or showing a spaceship launching vertically instead of cruising horizontally, or having a city in the background instead of a starfield, or whatever)! 

Those are exactly the kinds of things delineated in licensing agreements. It's why Lego can do spaceships for other non-Disney licenses, and can do NASA style space sets, and why Lego CAN'T do just single SW minifigs, but CAN do large buildable SW figures. All of that stuff is spelled out in extremely complicated legal documents.

[Karalora]

At this point I feel I should ask: what are the essential elements of Classic Space and/or Castle that aren't being fulfilled by the Castle-esque or Space-esque elements included in other themes, licensed or otherwise? Is it an aesthetic? Is it that you don't want to have to pick and mix in order to get things that used to be conveniently present in a single theme?

[SpacePolice89]

38 minutes ago, Karalora said:

At this point I feel I should ask: what are the essential elements of Classic Space and/or Castle that aren't being fulfilled by the Castle-esque or Space-esque elements included in other themes, licensed or otherwise? Is it an aesthetic? Is it that you don't want to have to pick and mix in order to get things that used to be conveniently present in a single theme?

For me it is quite simple. Space themes have a space setting (not earth based or a subtheme of another theme) and the aesthetics must be at least somewhat related to what is considered Lego Space. Space sets also have trans colored canopies and parts. The same goes for Castle. Nexo Knights, Harry Potter or Ninjago are not even remotely filling the gap left by Castle. A true Castle theme must have that medieval look and include knights. Castle sets can't have too many pieces in very bright colors.

[icm]

1 minute ago, SpacePolice89 said:

For me it is quite simple. Space themes have a space setting (not earth based or a subtheme of another theme) and the aesthetics must be at least somewhat related to what is considered Lego Space. Space sets also have trans colored canopies and parts. The same goes for Castle. Nexo Knights, Harry Potter or Ninjago are not even remotely filling the gap left by Castle. A true Castle theme must have that medieval look and include knights. Castle sets can't have too many pieces in very bright colors.

Emphasis added in italics - circular reasoning, but understandable.

Emphasis added in bold - you would exclude Alien Conquest and Galaxy Squad, then.

 

[Classic_Spaceman]

47 minutes ago, Karalora said:

Is it an aesthetic? Is it that you don't want to have to pick and mix in order to get things that used to be conveniently present in a single theme?

For me, a true capital-S Space theme would have a variety of ships, speeders, rovers, mechs, bases, etc for one or more factions that have a consistent colour-scheme. Minifigs have spacesuits and helmets (optional if alien), and generally airtanks (though these are less important). Somewhat of an exception to this format is Alien Conquest, but I consider it to be a Space theme given that if viewed from the alien’s POV, it is Galaxy Squad. Also, Classic Space has 3-4 distinct colour-schemes, but since the Minifigs remain the same, I consider the theme to encompass an extended time-period or multiple teams from the same faction with different missions. 
 

7 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

Space sets also have trans colored canopies and parts. 

Agreed; Space sets should include colourful canopies and lights as accents, though clear is acceptable if necessary (Galaxy Squad comes to mind). 
 

[danth]

1 hour ago, SpacePolice89 said:

For me it is quite simple. Space themes have a space setting (not earth based or a subtheme of another theme) and the aesthetics must be at least somewhat related to what is considered Lego Space. Space sets also have trans colored canopies and parts. The same goes for Castle. Nexo Knights, Harry Potter or Ninjago are not even remotely filling the gap left by Castle. A true Castle theme must have that medieval look and include knights. Castle sets can't have too many pieces in very bright colors.

Agreed.

54 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

For me, a true capital-S Space theme would have a variety of ships, speeders, rovers, mechs, bases, etc for one or more factions that have a consistent colour-scheme. Minifigs have spacesuits and helmets (optional if alien), and generally airtanks (though these are less important). Somewhat of an exception to this format is Alien Conquest, but I consider it to be a Space theme...

Agreed again.

 

[jonwil]

To count as a space theme it has to have multiple vehicles built for flying through space or operating on another planet. Alien conquest has that (multiple UFOs and similar).

The most recent City space theme has that (space ships/stations and moon bases/rovers).

To count as a Space theme, it has to have coloured windscreens, it can't depict settings clearly specified as being in the solar system (which none of the old school Space themes did and which rules out the likes of Mars Mission) and it can't have molded head aliens (space police 3 and galaxy squad are space but not Space)

[danth]

10 hours ago, jonwil said:

To count as a space theme it has to have multiple vehicles built for flying through space or operating on another planet. Alien conquest has that (multiple UFOs and similar).

The most recent City space theme has that (space ships/stations and moon bases/rovers).

To count as a Space theme, it has to have coloured windscreens, it can't depict settings clearly specified as being in the solar system (which none of the old school Space themes did and which rules out the likes of Mars Mission) and it can't have molded head aliens (space police 3 and galaxy squad are space but not Space)

I approve of the space vs Space classification (little "s" vs big "S") and agree with what you said, though I wouldn't care if a Space theme had molded alien heads.

Edited September 2, 2023 by danth

[danth]

23 hours ago, Karalora said:

At this point I feel I should ask: what are the essential elements of Classic Space and/or Castle that aren't being fulfilled by the Castle-esque or Space-esque elements included in other themes, licensed or otherwise? Is it an aesthetic? Is it that you don't want to have to pick and mix in order to get things that used to be conveniently present in a single theme?

I can give you specific examples of sets I bought to scratch the Space itch.

Green windscreen for the win. And no stickers! The raccoon parts are generic enough; swap the torso and it's not Rocket but just a random friendly anthropomorphic trash panda.

But I don't like the shape or the color scheme. Lego designers could do better from scratch. And frankly I just don't want licensed anything in my sets. As a recognizable Guardians of the Galaxy design, this is a build once and scrap for parts set.

Mars Spacecraft Exploration Missions is close to being phenomenal. It's an honest to god spaceship, and there are tons of space parts, and tons of prints, with no stickers. And the ship looks good.

I would have preferred trans blue, or any nice trans color, over trans light blue. But for some insane reason, this is a City set. Also it's too expensive by $10, and infuriatingly, does not come with paper instructions.

Space bunny mech? I'm in. Has the vibe of a Classic Space rocket base. The stickers suck and should be prints. The trans clear window should also be trans orange. I hate when sets mix windscreen colors for no reason. The trans light blue bits are boring too. I don't really "get" why there's a pig cook or blue cat or what's up with the woman. I would prefer some more archetypal space people, or more bunny people to fit the theme. I don't care at all about Monkie Kid characters or their story. I think the pig and woman figs are stupid. A generic anthropomorphic pig head would be cool, but not an angry pig cook.

These two sets have to get honorable mentions even though they're not space. The first one is very sci-fi and has amazing colored windscreens. All five vehicles have simple, clean, and nice looking designs. Great colors, no stickers, only a few prints. All have modularity similar to old Space sets (especially Blacktron) where you can swap around the front and back bits. The torsos are sci-fi and generic and reusable. The second one gives me Blacktron vibes thanks to the black visors and torsos.

These sets are perfect. Even the price is perfect.

I'm pretty in love with this flying space car I made just by swapping the bits around!

Edited September 2, 2023 by danth

[MAB]

On 9/2/2023 at 7:37 AM, jonwil said:

... and it can't have molded head aliens (space police 3 and galaxy squad are space but not Space)

So what would happen if the space sets of the 80s had continued and to make them more interesting after such a long run, LEGO introduced a story arc in that the original minifigures discover a planet with aliens and they have moulded heads? That would mean Space is no longer space. 

[SpacePolice89]

7 hours ago, MAB said:

So what would happen if the space sets of the 80s had continued and to make them more interesting after such a long run, LEGO introduced a story arc in that the original minifigures discover a planet with aliens and they have moulded heads?

That almost happened with the cancelled Seatron subtheme but for some reason they cancelled it. Personally I don't like alien minifigures (especially ones with moulded heads) but such subthemes can still be considered Space but not Classic Space.

[danth]

1 hour ago, SpacePolice89 said:

Space but not Classic Space

Oh right, Space vs. Classic Space.

Most definitions of Classic Space don't include Futuron and later Space themes. I don't think I've heard a good term for Futuron through Insectoids. Post Classic Space?

Some fans only consider the first couple years of Space to be Classic Space, but they're a minority.

[MAB]

4 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

That almost happened with the cancelled Seatron subtheme but for some reason they cancelled it. Personally I don't like alien minifigures (especially ones with moulded heads) but such subthemes can still be considered Space but not Classic Space.

The point was, what happens if LEGO decides aliens are in Space, where the astronauts all wear classic uniforms. 

[SpacePolice89]

2 hours ago, danth said:

Oh right, Space vs. Classic Space.

Most definitions of Classic Space don't include Futuron and later Space themes. I don't think I've heard a good term for Futuron through Insectoids. Post Classic Space?

Some fans only consider the first couple years of Space to be Classic Space, but they're a minority.

Futuron is actually one of my favorite Space subthemes along with Space Police 1 but I collect everything from Classic Space to Exploriens. UFO and Insectoids are a bit different but they clearly belong to the same era. Post Classic Space sounds like a good name for the Futuron to Insectoids era. First I thought about the name System Space but earlier subthemes were branded Legoland so that's not suitable.

7 minutes ago, MAB said:

The point was, what happens if LEGO decides aliens are in Space, where the astronauts all wear classic uniforms. 

But it didn't happen so it is a completely irrelevant question. What happens if they put purple rabbits with trans neon orange chainsaws in Star Wars? Would you still consider it to be Star Wars?

[Yperio_Bricks]

2 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

But it didn't happen so it is a completely irrelevant question. What happens if they put purple rabbits with trans neon orange chainsaws in Star Wars? Would you still consider it to be Star Wars?

Actually there are rabbit-like species like the Lepi or Hoojib in Star Wars. Their fur can be of various colors. And maybe some day a dark jedi will employ a lightchainsaw

[danth]

3 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

What happens if they put purple rabbits with trans neon orange chainsaws in Star Wars? Would you still consider it to be Star Wars?

No, because that would actually be kinda cool and interesting.

[MAB]

11 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

But it didn't happen so it is a completely irrelevant question. What happens if they put purple rabbits with trans neon orange chainsaws in Star Wars? Would you still consider it to be Star Wars?

Yes, but then new space themes haven't happened so any discussion of them is irrelevant.  The point was, if they brought out a theme with classic space characters, but had aliens in it and maybe different coloured windshields, would it (i) be well received and (ii) be treated as a continuation of classic space. And would it really matter if the aliens had standard heads or moulded heads?

Edited September 4, 2023 by MAB