[MOC] Bucket Chain Excavator (DONE)

[doug72]

Now that I have received another 42055 BWE set I am planning to build a bucket chain excavator as used for canal building similar to this early version and use it as a GBC:-

Some images show buckets cutting up the slope others show cuts down the slope.
Cutting down the slope buckets discharge is simple as they pass over the top drive wheel but if the buckets cut up the slope how do they discharge ?

Does anyone have any information about this ?

Thanks for any help in advance.

Doug

Edited May 27, 2017 by Doug72

[Gabi_BC]

The most advanced excavators of this kind were built by germans and used in open pit mining. Some of them run on rail tracks, that can offer some interesting possibilities. On some models, the excavated material was loaded directly into trains running under the main body of the excavator. This has largely been replaced by conveyors but would make an awesome scene.

http://www.ostkohle.de/

here's a folder with some pictures that might be useful as reference:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ug8q4ezg8n5ghrj/AABNXQ50YroGbjZj04D2v-5Ya?dl=0

FAM and Takraf are among the main manufacturers of such machines. Larger models have the digging arm divided into sections, each of them suspended with pulleys. This allows variations in the excavation profile. Large bucket chain excavators work alongside BWEs and even in giant complexes that include an overburden conveyor bridge (giant machines as big as the eiffel tower laid on a side). 

Have you decided on a solution for the chain itself and for fixing the buckets to it? 

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Gabi_BC

[doug72]

38 minutes ago, Gabi_BC said:

Have you decided on a solution for the chain itself and for fixing the buckets to it?

Thanks for the link to images - will study.

Re Chain / Buckets: will porobably use the white visors as buckets as the BWE buckets are rather large and only have eight available
They will be attached to the large Lego chain links as per my other MOCs.
Now have obtained more chain links.
The BWE 42055 will provide all the other parts that I will need and replenish my spare parts stock.

Its a long term project.

[Gabi_BC]

whenever i contemplated the idea of a bucket chain excavator i ended up thinking that using 3d printed buckets and maybe custom chain link parts where the buckets are attached are necessary. 

[doug72]

31 minutes ago, Gabi_BC said:

whenever i contemplated the idea of a bucket chain excavator i ended up thinking that using 3d printed buckets and maybe custom chain link parts where the buckets are attached are necessary. 

You could use two parallel large Lego chains and cross connect them by 5L or 7L beams and attach buckets to the each cross beam.
Then as chain reaches top drive wheel and buckets descend again then whatevers in the bucket would drop through between the two chains.
Would need a lot of extra links to do that !
I have plenty of the old 14T gears that mesh with the large chain links.

[doug72]

On 02/04/2017 at 0:47 PM, Gabi_BC said:

Have you decided on a solution for the chain itself and for fixing the buckets to it?

This work OK with 5L wide track.
The grey 5L - 1/2 beam is required so that the blue axle pins can grip the track tightly.

Works OK with both BWE buckets and Clamshell buckets.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Doug72

[agrof]

Looks good, but what about this kind of bucket attachment?

 - These little guys have the strongest pin connections out there, so probably the best choice to connect something to a chain link. I would give a try for sure. 

Looks like a big project, keep us updated! 

[doug72]

29 minutes ago, agrof said:

Looks good, but what about this kind of bucket attachment?

 

 - These little guys have the strongest pin connections out there, so probably the best choice to connect something to a chain link. I would give a try for sure. 

Looks like a big project, keep us updated! 

Thanks - yes I,ve used them before for linking parts to tracks - they can be quite hard to pull apart.

Its a very early stage for this project - just getting ideas put together before start building.

Doug

 

[DrJB]

If I may, I think using the chain links 'complicates' seriously the design. How about a chain made up of BWE buckets, and 5M liftarms on both sidee. It's narrow but would require some 'positive' means to move. 

[doug72]

7 minutes ago, DrJB said:

If I may, I think using the chain links 'complicates' seriously the design. How about a chain made up of BWE buckets, and 5M liftarms on both sidee. It's narrow but would require some 'positive' means to move. 

Have thought about that solution but not yet tried it. Might be possible for the 5L lift arms to slide along side rails and use a large Lego chain the move the buckets with it located in between the lift arms.

Now that I have a second 42055 set I can have the possibility of using 16 buckets, if I rob my BW trencher or buy some more !

[1gor]

22 hours ago, Doug72 said:

This work OK with 5L wide track.
The grey 5L - 1/2 beam is required so that the blue axle pins can grip the track tightly.

Works OK with both BWE buckets and Clamshell buckets.

 

Doug, I think this is a great idea for such unusual project 

[doug72]

23 hours ago, agrof said:

Looks good, but what about this kind of bucket attachment?

 - These little guys have the strongest pin connections out there, so probably the best choice to connect something to a chain link. I would give a try for sure. 

Looks like a big project, keep us updated! 

 

56 minutes ago, I_Igor said:

Doug, I think this is a great idea for such unusual project 

I will use the bucket connection shown 2nd from left  in Agrof post. Works OK without the other parts, very slight movement of the bucket but will help to align it with the guide rails. The end sections of the grey half 5L beam will run along guide rails on the bucket chain arm underside so that the chain doesn't sag too much.
Hoping to use 16 buckets.

At the moment I am building the 42055 BWE base with the tracks but will install two XL motors plus battery box and a PF receiver.
Then build turntable top and gradually sort out the bucket chain arm structure.

[1gor]

19 hours ago, Doug72 said:

 

I will use the bucket connection shown 2nd from left  in Agrof post. Works OK without the other parts, very slight movement of the bucket but will help to align it with the guide rails. The end sections of the grey half 5L beam will run along guide rails on the bucket chain arm underside so that the chain doesn't sag too much.
Hoping to use 16 buckets.

At the moment I am building the 42055 BWE base with the tracks but will install two XL motors plus battery box and a PF receiver.
Then build turntable top and gradually sort out the bucket chain arm structure.

question is only does capacity of this bucket is enough? I know that It is not for business purposes, but whole idea of model in general is to show as much similarities with original as possible (not mentioning that models are actually for  functional testing...). Whatever you decide I'll be watching progress from time to time. I'm just curious 

[doug72]

It will definitly mounted on caterpillar tracks, using the 42055 design but with self contained motors etc.
Still to determine which way the bucket chain should rotate as it cuts.
Most seem to cut on the up slope but how does a bucket then discharge when it reaches the top chain wheel.

If its the other way then then as bucket passes around the top chain wheel contents will drop out.
Intention is to either use the small parts as used for BWE or lego balls.

Found this image of a modern smaller BCE which cuts on the up slope.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Doug72

[1gor]

6 minutes ago, Doug72 said:

It will definitly mounted on caterpillar tracks, using the 42055 design but with self contained motors etc.
Still to determine which way the bucket chain should rotate as it cuts.
Most seem to cut on the up slope but how does a bucket then discharge when it reaches the top chain wheel.

If its the other way then then as bucket passes around the top chain wheel contents will drop out.
Intention is to either use the small aprts as used for BWE or lego balls.

Found this image of a modern smaller BCE

download (20) by Doug Ridgway, on Flickr

to make modern (even actual version) is a good promotion and it is cool when you manage to make something with technic parts (parts are usually great for more functionality when you make 10 or more years older models than parts used...) Good idea to build more up to date model if you ask me.

[John Daniels]

5 hours ago, Doug72 said:

Most seem to cut on the up slope but how does a bucket then discharge when it reaches the top chain wheel.

I think that I may have the answer. If you look at the lower right hand image in the photo that you posted, you can see a bucket starting to go around the end of the arm. When you look closely you can see that the back of the bucket has lifted off of the chain. Assuming that the same occurs on the other end of the belt, it would appear that the bucket off loads from the rear. 

Edit: Upon closer inspection it appears that the buckets lack a surface on the inner side. So they basically act as shovels, and as they go around the arm the material would slide out of the back.

Edited April 5, 2017 by John Daniels
New theory

[doug72]

49 minutes ago, John Daniels said:

I think that I may have the answer. If you look at the lower right hand image in the photo that you posted, you can see a bucket starting to go around the end of the arm. When you look closely you can see that the back of the bucket has lifted off of the chain. Assuming that the same occurs on the other end of the belt, it would appear that the bucket off loads from the rear. 

Edit: Upon closer inspection it appears that the buckets lack a surface on the inner side. So they basically act as shovels, and as they go around the arm the material would slide out of the back.

Thanks for that observation. It's going to be hard to replicate that using the lego buckets that are available, will have to put my thinking cap on.

The underside of the bucket arm must be flush until reaching the top drive wheel.

That might explain the tunnel ike structure at the inner end of the bucket arm.

Water borne bucket dredgers have the rotation the other way round with contents tipping out of the buckets as they go around the top drive wheel.

Will have to do some more research !!

Doug

[DrJB]

On some construction machines, the bucket 'opens from the back' with hydraulics. I'm guessing for the BCE, some mechanism does the same function.

[doug72]

This would seem to confirm John's observation.

I shall probably base my MOC on this machine.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Doug72

[Gabi_BC]

5 hours ago, DrJB said:

some mechanism does the same function.

The bucket itself has no moving parts. The buckets are emptied when they go around the drive sprocket inside the excavator body. The material falls off the back of the bucket, into a chute and then onto conveyors or into railcars. The geometry of the bucket ensures that the material stays inside the bucket until it goes around the sprocket. That is why the buckets have that "tail"

I added some pictures i took at Ferropolis (awesome place, must visit if you have the opportunity). 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/94ofk9iumvnbgnw/AABUnzvKG4PxTKc7vq4f_KjLa?dl=0

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkDlm0FmmZY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z41eabO0OTo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8tv-FUfq0g

Edited April 5, 2017 by Gabi_BC

[Tommy Styrvoky]

4 hours ago, Gabi_BC said:

The bucket itself has no moving parts. The buckets are emptied when they go around the drive sprocket inside the excavator body. The material falls off the back of the bucket, into a chute and then onto conveyors or into railcars. The geometry of the bucket ensures that the material stays inside the bucket until it goes around the sprocket. That is why the buckets have that "tail"

I added some pictures i took at Ferropolis (awesome place, must visit if you have the opportunity). 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/94ofk9iumvnbgnw/AABUnzvKG4PxTKc7vq4f_KjLa?dl=0

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkDlm0FmmZY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z41eabO0OTo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8tv-FUfq0g

It appears from the photos that the bucket chain is supported from below and above, to eliminate sag in the bucket chain and thus eliminating loss of material from preventing the buckets to tilt backwards.

For the bucket chain I would suggest not using lego tread pieces, but use some technic build solution, it would be more compact and function better/be much stronger. Maybe something using connected 2l or 3l liftarms to form a chain, and drive it with a tire or a sprocket.

I think it would be rather fun to build a large scale bucket excavator, like the one posted above, all of those cables would be a fun challenge to work out... maybe some day when I have enough parts I can venture out into some larger tracked vehicles... and wheeled ones too.

Also that looks like fun to see something that large in person.

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Tommy Styrvoky

[Tommy Styrvoky]

This may be too complex of a solution, or too big, though it would work well for a large version, I simplified some of it, as it is sort of part intensive. Though if it would be cheaper to build than the cost of one bucket, I would use it. ( checked BL, only $.13 per bucket for your current solution, so this may be more expensive, but it will better replicate the operation of the real machine.)

LDD file http://www.bricksafe.com/files/Tommy_styrvoky/Bucket chain excavator.lxf

 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Tommy Styrvoky

[doug72]

9 hours ago, Gabi_BC said:

The bucket itself has no moving parts. The buckets are emptied when they go around the drive sprocket inside the excavator body. The material falls off the back of the bucket, into a chute and then onto conveyors or into railcars. The geometry of the bucket ensures that the material stays inside the bucket until it goes around the sprocket. That is why the buckets have that "tail"

I added some pictures i took at Ferropolis (awesome place, must visit if you have the opportunity). 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/94ofk9iumvnbgnw/AABUnzvKG4PxTKc7vq4f_KjLa?dl=0

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkDlm0FmmZY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z41eabO0OTo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8tv-FUfq0g

Thanks Gabi

Found that first you tube video last night and was going to post it this morning. have a clearer understanding now on how they work.
Just tried to embed that video but can't seem to do it.

I may have to try and find a chain excavator that rotates the other way like floating dredgers do.

5 hours ago, Tommy Styrvoky said:

It appears from the photos that the bucket chain is supported from below and above, to eliminate sag in the bucket chain and thus eliminating loss of material from preventing the buckets to tilt backwards.

For the bucket chain I would suggest not using lego tread pieces, but use some technic build solution, it would be more compact and function better/be much stronger. Maybe something using connected 2l or 3l liftarms to form a chain, and drive it with a tire or a sprocket.

I think it would be rather fun to build a large scale bucket excavator, like the one posted above, all of those cables would be a fun challenge to work out... maybe some day when I have enough parts I can venture out into some larger tracked vehicles... and wheeled ones too.

Also that looks like fun to see something that large in person.

 

Tommy - thanks for your suggestions - I will look into them but probably a too costly build.
I will try using the thin quadrant parts if they can accommodate Lego Balls.
I used them on my Bucket Wheel Lift for the second stage transfer.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Doug72

[doug72]

I looking at two chains using the large Lego Links spaced at 6L apart.

I only have enough spare  to test various connections for the buckets (scoops).

Connection to the chain requires two pin holes to ensure a secure grip on the track link studs linking them together and mount the buckets.
Only have 14T chain wheels at present so need to source bigger ones plus lots more links.

Re buckets - looking at what other Lego make i.e Duplo etc. to see if would connect, otherwise it will need 3D printing !!

IMG_4486 by Doug Ridgway, on Flickr

 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Doug72

[ColletArrow]

How about the Arocs clamshell bucket 18943? Sorry if it has already been mentioned, but I think it has enough of an opening on the 'top' to permit it to empty.