"Castle lines never die" or "what made me change my mind and believe in new exciting castle lines".

[Murrig Icehammer]

4 hours ago, MAB said:

There aren't any LOTR or Hobbit sets available now, and when they were their prices were pretty much in line with other similar lego sets.

Or do you mean LOTR and Hobbit sets on the secondary market? If so, there are plenty of classic castle sets still available on the secondary market too.

Prices at the secondary marked, are hilarious IMO. No seriously, i only look at Amazon for Lego sets from now and then, but i must say that Lego prices in general and especially their licensed Sets are way over my budget (for various reasons).

But on the other side, i don't want to switch to so called clone brands, not because i'm especially loyal to Lego as a company, but mostly because i'm concerned about the health of my kids and my own (There have been rumors of certain toys to cause cancer. I know this sounds crazy, but i'll better be on the save side, especially when it comes to my kids.).

 

 

[Aanchir]

15 hours ago, Murrig Icehammer said:

Yeah... but we're talking about castle here, not some other theme, like City or something similar. Nexo Knights seem to have replaced (historical) Castle theme for now. Not just that, the statement on their own page suggests that they are well aware that there are people loking for a more classical castle theme (in contrast to a Sci-fi/ Castle mix like Nexo knights), telling everyone that Nexo Knights has replaced Lego Castle. period.

That statement alone obviously suggests that there will be no Castle theme as long as Nexo Knights exists. Which is very sad IMHO.

Regarding to kids and other media, just look at Ninjago/ Star wars and many other themes many of them are present in other media. I'm not saying that it's impossibkle to have a theme without that, but it seems that there's much less risk involved to have some kind of other media involved. I also didn't mean that kids probably wouldn't like a Castle theme, but it's obviously the ppl. in charge who don't want to take that risk, especially since there are still LotR and The Hobbit sets (which are pretty expensive IMO).

And what do you mean with " the designers wanted to try something they hadn't tried before" ?

There where LOTS of Sci-Fi/ fantasy mixed themes before Nexo Knights came out. Even Ninjago has certain Sci-Fi influences (vehicles and bases afaik). To me, it appears that the designers rather wanted to play save instead of trying something new by introducing another Sci-Fi/Fantasy mixed theme, instead of going either full Sci-Fi or full Fantasy/Historical (which would consists 90% of the same themed sets for decades). But aside from that, why do themes always have to be in vogue? Does it always have to be tied in with something else? Are kids really THAT superficial and have no other interest aside from what pop Media tells them? Isn't Lego itself powerful enough to raise interest for certain themes in Kids minds?

Again guys, please don't take me wrong, i just try to understand the logic behind all this.

Nexo Knights may not be the first sci-fi/fantasy mashup LEGO has done, but it IS the first one to be a specific offshoot of the LEGO Castle theme. That's what I mean by "something they hadn't tried before". Granted, early in its development Knights' Kingdom II had more sci-fi elements, but the final products and story were pretty much just heavily stylized medieval fantasy.

And frankly, launching a whole portfolio of original media like books, a TV show, and a free app is hardly "playing it safe". It's a much bigger investment, and that means a much bigger risk if it doesn't pan out. Let's not forget that the Galidor theme was basically the LEGO Group's biggest failure in part because its hopes were riding on the expected popularity of the TV show. Obviously, LEGO Is much better at adequately planning and testing a new media-driven property today than they were back in that era of reckless innovation, but even so, that planning and testing to make sure all goes well doesn't come cheap. It's a much different situation than a theme like Star Wars or Super Heroes where LEGO usually doesn't have to play a leading role in developing the corresponding media (although with spinoffs like The Freemaker Adventures they're dabbling in more of that these days).

LEGO might be capable of creating new interest in a genre, but generally they don't want to have to depend on that. Even the classic themes were pretty much universally based on types of play and storytelling that kids were already interested in. It's much better business to create toys based on a premise kids already think is cool than to spend extra money convincing kids of WHY a particular premise is cool.

Not sure whether that's really pertinent to this discussion, though — as I keep saying, there's no reason to doubt today's kids think knights and castles are cool, nor any reason to think LEGO doubts that. After all, why would they bother trying to create a new "big bang" IP using ingredients that weren't already popular on their own? There's a reason Nexo Knights is futuristic knights and castles rather than futuristic tax lawyers and office buildings, and it's not because LEGO has any sort of mandate to have a "knights and castles" theme at all times. It's because they know they can count on knights and castles being something kids know, like, and understand.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Aanchir

[Murrig Icehammer]

2 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Nexo Knights may not be the first sci-fi/fantasy mashup LEGO has done, but it IS the first one to be a specific offshoot of the LEGO Castle theme. That's what I mean by "something they hadn't tried before". Granted, early in its development Knights' Kingdom II had more sci-fi elements, but the final products and story were pretty much just heavily stylized medieval fantasy.

And frankly, launching a whole portfolio of original media like books, a TV show, and a free app is hardly "playing it safe". It's a much bigger investment, and that means a much bigger risk if it doesn't pan out. Let's not forget that the Galidor theme was basically the LEGO Group's biggest failure in part because its hopes were riding on the expected popularity of the TV show. Obviously, LEGO Is much better at adequately planning and testing a new media-driven property today than they were back in that era of reckless innovation, but even so, that planning and testing to make sure all goes well doesn't come cheap. It's a much different situation than a theme like Star Wars or Super Heroes where LEGO usually doesn't have to play a leading role in developing the corresponding media (although with spinoffs like The Freemaker Adventures they're dabbling in more of that these days).

LEGO might be capable of creating new interest in a genre, but generally they don't want to have to depend on that. Even the classic themes were pretty much universally based on types of play and storytelling that kids were already interested in. It's much better business to create toys based on a premise kids already think is cool than to spend extra money convincing kids of WHY a particular premise is cool.

Not sure whether that's really pertinent to this discussion, though — as I keep saying, there's no reason to doubt today's kids think knights and castles are cool, nor any reason to think LEGO doubts that. After all, why would they bother trying to create a new "big bang" IP using ingredients that weren't already popular on their own? There's a reason Nexo Knights is futuristic knights and castles rather than futuristic tax lawyers and office buildings, and it's not because LEGO has any sort of mandate to have a "knights and castles" theme at all times. It's because they know they can count on knights and castles being something kids know, like, and understand.

I think we're going in circles here. Obviously a more historical medieval castle theme alone seems to be too much of a risk for the ppl in charge, so they felt they had to mix it with something else. I don't see any other reason to create something like Nexo Knights, it surely isn't because of the originality of the theme nor can't it be their artistic value or because the Sets are especially nice to look at (it's more like success of the Lego Movie and other stuff like that, where themes got mixed for temporary laughs.)

The problem is that (some) AFOLS (like me) would rather see more depth or quality in the general Castle theme (10193 for ex.), instead of some goofy Nexo Knight castle/sci-fi mix. But as i already said AFOLS are not the decisive factor in this case. But that doesn't mean we're supposed to be happy about it.

 

Of course creating a TV series and making some apps is a bigger investment, but also more safe than just releasing a Castle theme without any supporting media at all. You see, the theme is much more present, than just selling the toys alone. Each single element if its App, TV series/Movie and Toys are supporting each other, which in turn is much less of a risk for failure than have just the toys. Of course they invest more $$$, but it's also a way to play safe. (More commercials => less probability for a total failure, very simple.)

For example, fantasy theme from 2009 only had a vague map with some hints of possible future sets (elves), which wheren't even released as a castle theme. What i want to say is that nowadays they surely wouldn't do that anymore.

[Oederland]

On 5/8/2017 at 11:25 AM, Itaria No Shintaku said:

I saw that third parties are still focusing on castle lines. Lele, SY, Enlighten and Sluban do. Now, while I am not enlisting in this the fact that Lepin was rumored to give old castle sets a new life, because that's obviously for nostalgic adults, Lele, SY, Enlighten and Sluban are aimed to children and that would be totally suicide to keep on producing something that nobody is interested in. I am changing my mind. Perhaps children are interested in castle lines after all. While I still think children may prefere a fantasy attempt with dragons, skeletons and orc, still they are interested in this. 

What do you think?

Maybe it helps to provide information on the other brands:

• Ausini has some "Farmland" sets which would work well as civilian buildings for a medieval diorama (some of these sets are heavily inspired by TLC's Medieval Market set), plus a "Knights" theme. I think the sets have existed for quite some years by now.
• BanBao has some unique sets, which have been around some time though.
• Enlighten's Knights theme (sets 1001-1023) phases out at the moment, and is replaced by a new theme "The War of Glory" (sets 2301-2317). It is fantasy oriented, but also comes with sci-fi elements like Nexo Knights, with knights on the one side and elves on the other. There are also some dwarfs, dragons and other flying creatures. One set (a mine) is heavily inspired by LotR sets, there are two sets with ents (although these creatures are unique design, at least no TLC copy), another looks very similar to TLC's Elves theme.
• Lele released some bootleg minifig sets of the Lion Knights / Dragon Knights from 2014, and another wave of minifigs with unique design (at least not a Lego copy, no idea whether it was inspired by any existing toys), which is more "Chinese oriented" though, considering the type of printing. Look for Lele 78038 in case you are interested in. There were some more sets consisting of one minifig each combined with e. g. a catapult, but as far as I remember it was the same minifigs as in 78038. Since then, nothing else has appeared.
• Lojo has released various bootleg minifigs, among others also some copies of the "classic" green-red Dragon Knights and blue-red Dragon Knights, Royal Knights of 1996, Fright Knights of 1997.
• Pogo has started to release armours, helmets, shields, weapons. These seem to be bootlegs of Brickwarriors items. One sword seems to be a bootleg of Brickarms' claymore.
• Sluban presented a new knights theme on a toy fair some while ago (might have been this year), which appears to consist of a range of civilian buildings (e. g. a set with a wind mill, another with a water mill, a smithy, two sets with a frame house each) and only one large castle-like structure (looks more like a large gate lodge with some additional wall sections than a "complete" castle). No idea whether it will be released, and if so, when.
• SY released some bootleg minifig sets of the Lion Knights / Dragon Knights from 2014 and the (red) Lion Knights from 2010 plus one series focusing on historic minifigs from CMF series (plus two minifigs from the 2010 Lion Knights fraction). They had presented unique sets with buildings at a toy fair, one fraction were knights (they might have been bootleg minifigs of the blue Lion Knights from 2014 or unique design with similar colour scheme), who came with buildings and walls made of stone, the other fraction were a sort of native Indians living in wooden barracks. However, these were never produced. I think it was cancelled when TLC presented Nexo Knights. Since then, SY has copied Nexo Knights sets, but there have been no efforts for "classic" sets, be it new ones or bootlegs.

Then there are sets by Oxford and Wange, but these should have been around for some time except maybe one by Oxford "Knights of the Round Table".

Finally, I remember a photo from a Chinese toy fair, showing some rather simple or "classic" castle-like sets. I don't remember the brand though. Funnily, the horses looked like Enlighten's old horses (with eyelash printing), but this doesn't have to mean anything, as some Chinese brands copy sets of other Chinese brands.

Summary:

• At the moment, Pogo seems to produce Castle items, and these seem to be copies of e. g. Brickwarriors items. Lojo is producing items and minifigs, which seem to be copies of TLC items/minifigs. Several other brands have copied minifigs of TLC's Castle theme, CMF series and/or LotR minifigs, I'm not sure whether any new sets have been added recently. I have no idea what their main aim is, whether they earn their money by selling copies to Asian people who have seen TLC sets but can't afford or don't want to buy TLC sets, or whether they target "Western" people (when looking at shopping sites like Taobao targeting Asian people you will notice that the sets are often much cheaper than on e. g. AliExpress, so it might be the middlemen who make the most profit), but in any case, they sell copies.
• Only few brands/companies have released unique sets recently. Sluban might replace its old theme by a new one in the nearer future with "classic" knights, and Enlighten is replacing its old theme by a new one, but the new one is fantasy oriented. So considering the many brands and companies it doesn't look as if there were major efforts to release castle-like sets - it might be easier to just sell Nexo Knights copies or Nexo Knights inspired sets. 

One final comment: My personal experience is limited to Enlighten sets of the 2014 theme. For the others, I relied on photos from toy fairs and offers from AliExpress and other shopping sites. Accordingly, I'm not always sure whether some set is a blatant copy / bootleg, a heavily inspired set (e. g. same or similar structure but different colours) or a unique creation.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Oederland

[Aanchir]

4 hours ago, Murrig Icehammer said:

I think we're going in circles here. Obviously a more historical medieval castle theme alone seems to be too much of a risk for the ppl in charge, so they felt they had to mix it with something else. I don't see any other reason to create something like Nexo Knights, it surely isn't because of the originality of the theme nor can't it be their artistic value or because the Sets are especially nice to look at (it's more like success of the Lego Movie and other stuff like that, where themes got mixed for temporary laughs.)

The problem is that (some) AFOLS (like me) would rather see more depth or quality in the general Castle theme (10193 for ex.), instead of some goofy Nexo Knight castle/sci-fi mix. But as i already said AFOLS are not the decisive factor in this case. But that doesn't mean we're supposed to be happy about it.

 

Of course creating a TV series and making some apps is a bigger investment, but also more safe than just releasing a Castle theme without any supporting media at all. You see, the theme is much more present, than just selling the toys alone. Each single element if its App, TV series/Movie and Toys are supporting each other, which in turn is much less of a risk for failure than have just the toys. Of course they invest more $$$, but it's also a way to play safe. (More commercials => less probability for a total failure, very simple.)

For example, fantasy theme from 2009 only had a vague map with some hints of possible future sets (elves), which wheren't even released as a castle theme. What i want to say is that nowadays they surely wouldn't do that anymore.

See, I don't think it's at all "obvious" that LEGO thinks traditional castles are a risk. In fact, I see no reason to believe it at all. To me it seems like fans of traditional castles are making that assumption because they can't imagine LEGO not having traditional castle sets UNLESS they perceived them as a risk.

But in truth, LEGO willingly takes risks all the time to avoid stagnation. That sort of risk-taking is an inherent attribute of media-heavy "Big Bang" product lines like Nexo Knights. According to Brick by Brick (pp263–264): "A Big Bang is also a big bet. LEGO launches a Big Bang about every other year, and when it does, nearly every unit within the company, from manufacturing to logistics, marketing, IT, and beyond, goes all out to get behind the line and deliver a hit. If the Big Bang is a big bust, à la LEGO Universe, it lets much of the air out of the company's earnings." Suffice to say, that's the OPPOSITE of playing it safe. It's taking a measured risk in hopes of a substantial payout.

The idea that LEGO would only ever take this kind of risk in order to breathe new life into a floundering product category is silly. After all, Chima was just as risky as Nexo Knights, yet wasn't positioned to rejuvenate any existing category. And the ninja product category had been vacant for over a decade before Ninjago launched.

There's also the fact that LEGO doesn't have any kind of mandate to keep ailing product categories alive. If LEGO thought Castle was fundamentally no longer "cool" enough to be a safe investment, they wouldn't pour far more massive amounts of money and years of development time into trying to MAKE it cool. They'd drop it like a warm turd and start exploring entirely separate options.

And what's this about Nexo Knights not having any artistic value or being nice to look at? Whether you like how it looks or not, understand that a person could say the exact same thing about ANY theme without being right or wrong, because that kind of thing is purely subjective. So the idea that looks can't be a valid motivation for the Nexo Knights designers is garbage. They are working just as hard to make cool-looking sets as Castle designers ever have. Their idea of what looks cool just happens to be different than yours.

You're welcome to like or dislike Nexo Knights as vocally as you like, but please stop projecting your dislike onto the people making it and assuming they would only ever make a theme as crazy and non-traditional as that out of desperation or a lack of better options.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

10 hours ago, Aanchir said:

You're welcome to like or dislike Nexo Knights as vocally as you like, but please stop projecting your dislike onto the people making it and assuming they would only ever make a theme as crazy and non-traditional as that out of desperation or a lack of better options.

IMHO the original idea was something like: "Hey, instead of making yet-another-normal-castle-subtheme why don't we pimp it? Named unique characters with different colors instead of nameless unstoried knights... named villains... and let's make it super shiny and technological a-la Ninjago" because to me NK was exactly what Ninjago is, but translated with knights. Very same thing. So it should have worked, at least as much as Ninjago did. Why didn't it? I don't know. I don't like Ninjago sets and I don't like NK sets the very same way. But you have to ask kids. AFOLs are a so little slice of the pie that we can't take ourselves as a role model.

[thetang22]

1 hour ago, Itaria No Shintaku said:

IMHO the original idea was something like: "Hey, instead of making yet-another-normal-castle-subtheme why don't we pimp it? Named unique characters with different colors instead of nameless unstoried knights... named villains... and let's make it super shiny and technological a-la Ninjago" because to me NK was exactly what Ninjago is, but translated with knights. Very same thing. So it should have worked, at least as much as Ninjago did. Why didn't it? I don't know. I don't like Ninjago sets and I don't like NK sets the very same way. But you have to ask kids. AFOLs are a so little slice of the pie that we can't take ourselves as a role model.

I agree with a lot of what you said.  I do think Lego wanted to capitalize on the success of Ninjago with NK, but was unable to produce the "it" factor with NK.  I also think it was TOO similar to Ninjago that it likely had potentially overlapping appeal to the same crowd of kids, and probably hit an either/or mentality for those deciding to make the purchase.

That's the way I always viewed Chima.  Lego taking the mentality of "Hey, Ninjago was surprisingly way more successful than anticipated, so that must be the new formula for success with kids (in the fantasy genre(s)) we should follow.  Let's create a new off-beat theme and make it highly influenced by the types of concepts Ninjago had....but within a new story/setting/characters."  Then once the dust settled, it seemed Chima was just too similar to an existing theme (Ninjago), and it ultimately failed to recapture the magic.

Edited May 19, 2017 by thetang22

[Itaria No Shintaku]

27 minutes ago, thetang22 said:

I agree with a lot of what you said.  I do think Lego wanted to capitalize on the success of Ninjago with NK, but was unable to produce the "it" factor with NK.  I also think it was TOO similar to Ninjago that it likely had potentially overlapping appeal to the same crowd of kids, and probably hit an either/or mentality for those deciding to make the purchase.

That's the way I always viewed Chima.  Lego taking the mentality of "Hey, Ninjago was surprisingly way more successful than anticipated, so that must be the new formula for success with kids (in the fantasy genre(s)) we should follow.  Let's create a new off-beat theme and make it highly influenced by the types of concepts Ninjago had....but within a new story/setting/characters."  Then once the dust settled, it seemed Chima was just too similar to an existing theme (Ninjago), and it ultimately failed to recapture the magic.

Yes that may be the point. And I also have another thing I believe.
They may have thought "Chima was something like Ninjago... but not as much Ninjago as Ninjago was... this is why it failed. Let's make NK even MORE Ninjago than Chima". And this is what they did. Instead of Ninja they're knights. But the rest is pretty similar. 

[MAB]

14 hours ago, Aanchir said:

See, I don't think it's at all "obvious" that LEGO thinks traditional castles are a risk. In fact, I see no reason to believe it at all. To me it seems like fans of traditional castles are making that assumption because they can't imagine LEGO not having traditional castle sets UNLESS they perceived them as a risk.

 

1

I agree with this, I don't think LEGO thinks making (Classic) Castle sets is a risk at all. They have done it on and off for years, with changes in identity from time to time. The risk is to keep on doing the same old thing year after year. There becomes no reason for people (and especially parents) to buy new sets if they are essentially the same as the ones they bought last year, the year before and the year before that.

[Murrig Icehammer]

3 hours ago, MAB said:

I agree with this, I don't think LEGO thinks making (Classic) Castle sets is a risk at all. They have done it on and off for years, with changes in identity from time to time. The risk is to keep on doing the same old thing year after year. There becomes no reason for people (and especially parents) to buy new sets if they are essentially the same as the ones they bought last year, the year before and the year before that.

I don't meant that it would be risky for Lego to release a traditional castle line again, but there more $ to make by having a sci-fi castle mix which can be MORE appealing to kids than a standalone caste or sci-fi line imo.

But i agree, especially castle sets where repeating way too much over the years. Just out of my head i'd say that there always have been at least a big Castle, a (prisoner/treasure) chariot, a tower, a siege engine, and a couple sets with individual soldiers. always. I think the problem does not lie within the castle theme itself, but the lack of variety in the sets themselves and things to do. It was (mostly) about a not specified conflict between two groups/knights.

How about creating a medieval / or light fantasy based Castle/Medieval-fantasy line about a small town that gets threaten by several groups of bandits or  knights or even fantasy creatures (or having a evil mage mastermind behind the attacks). There could be also a more traditional role playing game approach to the Castle theme, like the adventures of a small group of travelling adventurers? For the town there could be several civilian buildings, each set could themed around another danger the town faces (just an example). For the adventure group theme, there could be dungeon parts, city sets, even some orcs and dragons, you name it.

But i think the problem for TLG is to make things like that look cool and appealing to kids if it's not shiny, loud and totally over the top.

 

[SirBlake]

10 hours ago, thetang22 said:

 I also think it was TOO similar to Ninjago that it likely had potentially overlapping appeal to the same crowd of kids, and probably hit an either/or mentality for those deciding to make the purchase.

Hit the nail on the head. I have to wonder if Ninjago has special magic to it, or if it's more a case of being the first one with the formula. Running two themes with that formula leaves the non-ninjago theme out in the cold.

As far as named characters and villains, I think there's plenty of room for that while staying out of the helicopter/flying motorcycle thing that seems to define these types of themes. It's been suggested before, but a Dungeons & Dragons style theme that focuses on a named team of adventurers and is still grounded in historic+fantasy could absolutely work for everyone. The differing aesthetic could keep it from stepping on Ninjago's toes but still satisfy the storytelling aspect that most themes are being pushed toward. They're halfway there with the Heroica concept if they could just expand it beyond the game idea.

[thetang22]

4 hours ago, SirBlake said:

They're halfway there with the Heroica concept if they could just expand it beyond the game idea.

I'd be fully behind a theme inspired by the setting of Heroica.  Just leave the "game" portion of it in the past...because that was the worst part of it.

[BrickJagger]

On 5/18/2017 at 1:39 PM, Oederland said:

Maybe it helps to provide information on the other brands:

• Enlighten's Knights theme (sets 1001-1023) phases out at the moment, and is replaced by a new theme "The War of Glory" (sets 2301-2317). It is fantasy oriented, but also comes with sci-fi elements like Nexo Knights, with knights on the one side and elves on the other. There are also some dwarfs, dragons and other flying creatures. One set (a mine) is heavily inspired by LotR sets, there are two sets with ents (although these creatures are unique design, at least no TLC copy), another looks very similar to TLC's Elves theme.

Thanks for sharing this. Before looking this theme up I assumed that Enlighten had put out yet another uninspired dud of a theme, but this....this is something else.

Here are some links to the seventeen set first wave: 

http://downtheblocks.blogspot.com/2017/05/enlighten-2301-2304-war-of-glory.html

http://downtheblocks.blogspot.com/2017/05/enlighten-2305-2310-war-of-glory.html

http://downtheblocks.blogspot.com/2017/05/enlighten-2311-2317-war-of-glory.html

I honestly have no idea what I'm looking at. This looks to be a Nexo Knights - Warhammer - LOTR fusion, with some Gryphons and Pirates thrown in to boot. The sets are horrible in some cases and amazing in others. Some sets are completely Fantasy Era esque and others are futuristic space-tanks, such as the 1500 piece transforming castle. 

These things are so extreme that I feel like I should buy one to get a better feel for them, but I'm worried about the quality of the bricks. Can anyone who owns Enlighten bricks confirm that they are of at least decent quality? 

[x105Black]

3 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

Thanks for sharing this. Before looking this theme up I assumed that Enlighten had put out yet another uninspired dud of a theme, but this....this is something else.

Here are some links to the seventeen set first wave: 

...

I honestly have no idea what I'm looking at. This looks to be a Nexo Knights - Warhammer - LOTR fusion, with some Gryphons and Pirates thrown in to boot. The sets are horrible in some cases and amazing in others. Some sets are completely Fantasy Era esque and others are futuristic space-tanks, such as the 1500 piece transforming castle. 

These things are so extreme that I feel like I should buy one to get a better feel for them, but I'm worried about the quality of the bricks. Can anyone who owns Enlighten bricks confirm that they are of at least decent quality? 

Some of that is very interesting.  It's like Nexo Elves with a little bit of LOTR / Fantasy thrown in.  I mostly just want their animals:



I'd love to see more of this in the next Castle theme.

[gedren_y]

Now if only Lego could see to creating a modular Castle series where you could choose which faction owned the fortification. This could easily be done by simply swapping out decorative elements, which was the best thing about Morcia. They tried the modular thing with the most recent Castle line, and I think some NK sets. I have a number of ideas in this vein.

The main issue seems to be maintaining interest over time.

Another way to go could be to make an ever expanding fantasy world, with different building types. Make it a quest story where the factions (four?) are simply competing for the glory and honor of their people. This could give Lego the possibility of another in-house media property, with games and animation (TV or web series). Lots of civilian possibilities, faction army building, and various outfits for the main characters that could be spread throughout multiple waves. There could be all manner of fantasy creatures (good and bad), and new factions could join in the competition over time.

That idea may have to wait until Elves finishes its run.

In any event, Castle has plenty to offer on its own. It is just a matter of doing it the right way.

[Oederland]

12 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

Thanks for sharing this. Before looking this theme up I assumed that Enlighten had put out yet another uninspired dud of a theme, but this....this is something else.

[...]

These things are so extreme that I feel like I should buy one to get a better feel for them, but I'm worried about the quality of the bricks. Can anyone who owns Enlighten bricks confirm that they are of at least decent quality? 

Yesterday my girlfriend came back from China, where she had bought a few small castle or castle-related Enlighten sets for me (two versions each of the brown horse from Enlighten 1501A, the light brown / sand horse from Enlighten 1501B, and the crusader from Enlighten 1502B) and some castle minifigs and items from SY (SY165), POGO (some of the "knights' equipment" pieces), LOJO (one knight minifig, equipment), so I could provide some information. I also own Enlighten 1012, 1015, 1016, 1018. Not sure whether this is the correct place to talk about these though. As it might be of interest to others, maybe someone can recommend the appropriate section? Thank you.

A comment on clone brands, as it is a difficult topic:

I'm aware of the copyright issues/clone brands, and I don't want to make any promotion for clone brands. I'm neither a reseller nor a collector who is into buying tons of Lepin sets. My girlfriend is working for a reseller in China (mechanics, nothing to do with toys or toy production), and she is frequently contacted by clients asking why the original products are more expensive than the clones (well yeah, there's copyright infringement not just for toys obviously) and/or whether she can provide clone products (some resellers work together with clone companies or the subsidiaries produce clones themselves), and we frequently talk about this. By chance I stumbled across Enlighten (which seems to be "undisputed" by TLC nowadays?) and all those TLC clone brands last year when browsing Taobao and I was interested to get an impression of their quality, as I have enjoyed playing with TLC Castle sets as a child, which is why I let her order some Enlighten sets, and some clone stuff this year (see above).

On 5/18/2017 at 7:39 PM, Oederland said:

Only few brands/companies have released unique sets recently. Sluban might replace its old theme by a new one in the nearer future with "classic" knights

Just searched a little, the new Sluban theme is called "Legend Warriors", but it is less "fantasy" than the name might imply, see the trailer on Youtube (from 1:10 onward the sets are shown). Why do I post this; I think the concept of the sets comes pretty close to what people have asked for in the past (civilian buildings and so on).

Edited May 20, 2017 by Oederland

[Oederland]

4 hours ago, gedren_y said:

Another way to go could be to make an ever expanding fantasy world, with different building types.

Well, classic era was like this in some regards. New fractions would appear once in a while, and others would phase out. You could always find Castle sets in the shops, some older ones and more recent ones. I'm not sure why TLC gave up on this, but there must have been a reason. However, as soon as you stop promoting a theme continuously it might become difficult to attract people. I mean, if the "off" periods of a theme are long enough such a strategy leads to "lost generations" of children who might have played with knights if there had been sets around. Then again, these children might be attracted by other themes that can be promoted as the shelves are not covered by e. g. Castle sets.

Anyway. Legends of Chima, Ninjago, Nexo Knights have something in common IMO, a "coolness" factor. Even the City theme has more "adventure" elements with the expedition subthemes. This might be necessary nowadays to compete successfully. Already infants might dress up as knights/cowboys/pirates, and accordingly, these themes might be considered "uncool" at some point.* Now throw in fantasy/sci-fi, no matter how ridiculous, and suddenly it's a success, e. g. look at all the computer/online games in medieval-fantasy settings. With Ninjago and Nexo Knights you might be able to reach a wider age-range and/or keep children playing with the theme for a longer time. As a toy company, you might then go with themes like these instead of the "classic" ones. It is also worth a note that TLC is more restricted when it comes to Space due to the Star Wars license. But not every child might be interested in Star Wars, and you might get in touch with those by offering themes with futuristic elements - as in Legends of Chima, Ninjago, Nexo Knights. But with "cross-over themes" there might just be no more place for classic themes.  

* I really think this is a very important aspect. When I was a child (in the late 80ies / early 90ies) "brandificated" toys were already present. Disney of course, Barbie, the Smurfs, the Peanuts. In the early 90ies Sailor Moon and Power Rangers were introduced. Nonetheless I have the impression that it was much less of an issue compared to nowadays, there might have been a larger gap between shows that you saw on TV and toys that you played with. For instance, there weren't really that many toys when it came to smurfs, I only remember these soft plastic (?) figures which are still around nowadays. We still played with toy trains of unknown "origin", not "Thomas and Friends Toy Trains". We still played with construction machines and not "Bob the Builder" construction machines. We had cars and planes, not "Cars" cars and "Planes" planes. Nowadays you might have to make it "big", with its own show. And it might make more sense to go the sci-fi route then / "modern" interpretation of classic themes instead of the classic themes themselves.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Oederland

[Murrig Icehammer]

On 20.5.2017 at 4:59 PM, Oederland said:

Well, classic era was like this in some regards. New fractions would appear once in a while, and others would phase out. You could always find Castle sets in the shops, some older ones and more recent ones. I'm not sure why TLC gave up on this, but there must have been a reason. However, as soon as you stop promoting a theme continuously it might become difficult to attract people. I mean, if the "off" periods of a theme are long enough such a strategy leads to "lost generations" of children who might have played with knights if there had been sets around. Then again, these children might be attracted by other themes that can be promoted as the shelves are not covered by e. g. Castle sets.

I think these "off" periods make it unneccessary difficult to reintroduce a traditional castle theme. I you don't support it with a massive commercial campaign /TV series/ Movie for ex.) it will likely fail nowadays, since a castle theme alone would probably not attract enough kids to be successful.

On the other hand i think the problem a continous castle theme faces is the repetition of basically the same sets just with a different flavour. I think TLC wasn't bold enough to risk to go away from doing the same sets over and over and adding a twist, like to highlight another culture, like chinese or japanese. They could have even done a Marco Polo themed Castle line for a few years. (and by doing that spread some education to the kids.)

I don't know how how the Viking theme went (it probably wasn't that well received by kids) but if the sets wouldn't have looked so technic-like, i think it could have been a even better "excoursion" for the classic castle world. Of course it's lesss risky to have a LotR license. 

[x105Black]

I think a Castle theme could do very well today, even without the multimedia campaign (which it could also easily pull off).  They should certainly try to branch out a bit from the formulaic sets of previous iterations (castle, chariot, tower), but those are also key elements to a Castle theme.  I'd rather see them spread these out over a year, and bring in a few new ideas to accompany them.

Here are some ideas of sets that could branch out from the norms:

• I'd love a Forestmen treehouse fortification of some sort (like a combination of Tolkien sets 79002 Attack of the Wargs and 79102 Mirkwood Elf Army, or a Castle themed 10236 Ewok Tree Village).
• I'd like to see a different take on the Castle Gates (examples include 751396 Battle on Takodana and 79007 The Black Gate).
• I'd really like to see some civilian sets (like a more fleshed out and less colorful 41174 The Starlight Inn, or the 3739 Blacksmith Shop, or larger like 7189 Mill Village Raid and 10193 Medieval Market Village).

Anyways, I'm sure that LEGO can come up with something better than repetitive siege engines.  Focus on the buildings and on nature.  I'm personally annoyed when I get a structure set where 1/4 to 1/3 of the pieces are some sort of catapult or spear crossbow rather than using those pieces to better flesh out the structure build itself.  It seems to be how LEGO design their sets, unfortunately, and they do tend to provide me with fairly useful parts in useful colors, so I've dealt with it.  But I'd rather see those pieces used on the build, with separate siege engine sets if they deem it necessary.  Carts and carriages are the only vehicles I'm likely to purchase in a Castle theme, though.  Sorry about my rant against siege engines.

There should, however, always be a Castle.  I'm hoping that the sets stay away from anything too outlandish.  While fantasy elements are great and expected, the style of building should still be fairly straightforward.  I guess what I'm thinking about here is 70403 Dragon Mountain.  It's a very scant building with many many bricks taken up on the catapult.  For a $50 set called Dragon Mountain, I'd hope for a more substantial Dragon Mountain in the build.  70404 King's Castle and 10223 Kingdoms Joust, however, are good examples of structural builds in the Castle theme.

Looking outside of the Castle theme to find Castle builds, there's 70323 Jestro's Volcano Lair, which is great for a Nexo Knights set, but a little too out there for Castle.  There are too many bricks used for the toothed volcano and weird throne in my opinion.  This year's 70357 Knighton Castle is, again, great for Nexo Knights.  But in a Castle theme I'd change the space ship into a normal tower, remove the big brick built monsters, and use those pieces on more fortifications.  41180 Ragana's Magic Shadow Castle is also a little overdone in design (though I admit I appreciate the black / grey / purple color scheme), as is 41188 Breakout from the Goblin King's Fortress (which frankly has a terrible color scheme), though both are great for the Elves theme.  41078 Skyra's Mysterious Sky Castle is better for Castle, if you do away with the magic portal and the bright colors.  Of course, I'd love for them to go full 71040 Disney Castle, or Creator Expert Modular level of detail for a Castle set, but I find it unlikely.

But this is all personal preference.  I'm sure that I speak for more than just myself with these views, though, and I hope that these discussions influence future Castle themes.  Ultimately, I'll just be happy to see the theme return.

[Artanis I]

On 21/05/2017 at 0:59 AM, Oederland said:

For instance, there weren't really that many toys when it came to smurfs, I only remember these soft plastic (?) figures which are still around nowadays.

You mean the Schleich figures I think, they are PVC.

[MAB]

On 20/05/2017 at 0:09 PM, gedren_y said:

Another way to go could be to make an ever expanding fantasy world, with different building types. Make it a quest story where the factions (four?) are simply competing for the glory and honor of their people. This could give Lego the possibility of another in-house media property, with games and animation (TV or web series). Lots of civilian possibilities, faction army building, and various outfits for the main characters that could be spread throughout multiple waves. There could be all manner of fantasy creatures (good and bad), and new factions could join in the competition over time.

That idea may have to wait until Elves finishes its run.

 

1

Although they overlap in some subject matter at the periphery, I doubt Elves and Castle overlap much when it comes to marketing and themes available at the time. Elves seems to be firmly in the "girl" section, even though some boys and men like it.

[Oederland]

12 hours ago, Artanis I said:

You mean the Schleich figures I think, they are PVC.

Yes, exactly. Thanks for pointing this out.

15 hours ago, Murrig Icehammer said:

On the other hand i think the problem a continous castle theme faces is the repetition of basically the same sets just with a different flavour. I think TLC wasn't bold enough to risk to go away from doing the same sets over and over and adding a twist, like to highlight another culture, like chinese or japanese. They could have even done a Marco Polo themed Castle line for a few years. (and by doing that spread some education to the kids.)

Well, they have been doing so for years when it comes to City, at least for the usual Police and Fire Brigade subthemes. Every three years we get e. g. a new mobile police unit; the design does not necessarily improve. We get the usual helicopters and planes no matter whether it fits into the subthemes well or not.

When it comes to knights, I think it would be much easier to repeat certain concepts. When I was a child the interesting part of TLC's (and also Playmobil's) knights theme was that there were many sets around all the time and that one got new ones frequently. I never thought of whether something was a "repetition" or not. You can have various mounted knights for instance, just give them different coats of arms (and it doesn't have to be lions or dragons all the time...) and prominent colours. Or you already have a brown horse but also urgently need the set with the white horse. At least this was what I was thinking back then. ;) In the 80ies and 90ies, TLC was still more creative IMO when it came to Castle: You can have various types of chariots - even when it comes to small carts there is plenty of variety, 1974, 6010, 6011, 6016, 6022, 6023. They had a proper siege tower that came with a wall section (6061). They had various small ships and also the intermediate Sea Serpent. So one should always be able to introduce a new element into the next wave or subtheme, e. g. one might come up with a medieval harbour and ships (similar to 7029 or the two Hobbit sets 79013  and 79016), one wave might focus on a town setting (inn, blacksmith), one might be about dragons. A wave doesn't have to be restricted to a certain "subtheme"/element, one could always go with the usual sets as a base. And then one fraction might be heavily fantasy-oriented and come with dragons and such, if you don't like those you can buy sets from the other fractions.

But well. You might be able to increase profit with themes like Ninjago and Nexo Knights. Children might commit themselves to a certain brand or theme more easily and more strongly if it's more unique and can be consumed in additional ways, be it games, TV series, magazines.

[gedren_y]

1 hour ago, Oederland said:

Yes, exactly. Thanks for pointing this out.

Well, they have been doing so for years when it comes to City, at least for the usual Police and Fire Brigade subthemes. Every three years we get e. g. a new mobile police unit; the design does not necessarily improve. We get the usual helicopters and planes no matter whether it fits into the subthemes well or not.

When it comes to knights, I think it would be much easier to repeat certain concepts. When I was a child the interesting part of TLC's (and also Playmobil's) knights theme was that there were many sets around all the time and that one got new ones frequently. I never thought of whether something was a "repetition" or not. You can have various mounted knights for instance, just give them different coats of arms (and it doesn't have to be lions or dragons all the time...) and prominent colours. Or you already have a brown horse but also urgently need the set with the white horse. At least this was what I was thinking back then. ;) In the 80ies and 90ies, TLC was still more creative IMO when it came to Castle: You can have various types of chariots - even when it comes to small carts there is plenty of variety, 1974, 6010, 6011, 6016, 6022, 6023. They had a proper siege tower that came with a wall section (6061). They had various small ships and also the intermediate Sea Serpent. So one should always be able to introduce a new element into the next wave or subtheme, e. g. one might come up with a medieval harbour and ships (similar to 7029 or the two Hobbit sets 79013  and 79016), one wave might focus on a town setting (inn, blacksmith), one might be about dragons. A wave doesn't have to be restricted to a certain "subtheme"/element, one could always go with the usual sets as a base. And then one fraction might be heavily fantasy-oriented and come with dragons and such, if you don't like those you can buy sets from the other fractions.

But well. You might be able to increase profit with themes like Ninjago and Nexo Knights. Children might commit themselves to a certain brand or theme more easily and more strongly if it's more unique and can be consumed in additional ways, be it games, TV series, magazines.

This was part of what I was getting at.

There are also things that were done in ages past that could improve the versatility of sets. The possibility of alternate builds. While Lego didn't give instructions for these alternate builds in the old sets, they showed the possibility. The online instructions system now could potentially cater to that. Modularity, which I discussed before, could also increase the multiple purchase of sets. Sets that can be added together in varying combination increase play possibilities. Add that to the idea that the structure and/or vehicle could belong to any number of factions, just by adding enough faction detail parts that can be assigned by the builder wherever they chose.

Castle lines can be improved by the simple inclusion of civilians, to be protected or attacked, into the bigger sets, and small singular civilian sets to populate the all the factions. One that could be done would be a merchant's carriage, less ornate than Royal/faction ones, and carrying goods, not treasure. Include troops from at least two factions, and the builder can decide to which the merchant belongs (or neither). Builds like that could be done so that the base parts give options to the builds, which increase the likelihood of multiple purchases.

[MAB]

On 22/05/2017 at 4:57 PM, gedren_y said:

This was part of what I was getting at.

There are also things that were done in ages past that could improve the versatility of sets. The possibility of alternate builds. While Lego didn't give instructions for these alternate builds in the old sets, they showed the possibility. The online instructions system now could potentially cater to that.

 

Would you be willing to pay more for those sets, since they are then essentially designing two sets, so increasing the design costs.

On 22/05/2017 at 4:57 PM, gedren_y said:

Modularity, which I discussed before, could also increase the multiple purchase of sets. Sets that can be added together in varying combination increase play possibilities. Add that to the idea that the structure and/or vehicle could belong to any number of factions, just by adding enough faction detail parts that can be assigned by the builder wherever they chose.

1

Speaking as a parent, I often get annoyed by box art showing how a modular kit looks when combined with loads of other sets. It gives kids the wrong impression, and parents see $$$ signs flashing before them.

[Oederland]

3 hours ago, MAB said:

Would you be willing to pay more for those sets, since they are then essentially designing two sets, so increasing the design costs.

Considering the designs of the last sets of the Castle theme it would increase the price by 0.01 % at maximum. Really. I appreciate the work of the guys at TLC, but it happens to be the case that some of the designs were very, very poor, much worse compared to sets that were released some years ago. The carriage in 70401 is just ugly, the catapult in 70402 falls way behind previous ones, the stairways in 70403 is nice (basically a rehash of those in The Hobbit 79004 and LotR 9472), but the rest of the structure is pointless. In case the designer has worked more than 10 min to come up with something like this then TLC should consider to ask someone else the next time.